What do you feel about wokeness in film and theater?

[unicorn]

I asked my domestic partner if he'd be interested in this new production of Oklahoma! they're putting up in Los Angeles:

MADE FOR THE 21ST CENTURY...

 

The Oklahoma! that's coming to the Ahmanson Theatre next month is Oklahoma! as you’ve never seen or heard it before.

Without changing a word of text, this visionary 21st-century reimagining allows the classic musical to be seen in a whole new light. Among its themes are hotly-contested conversations about gun violence, Native American land rights, climate change, xenophobia, and toxic masculinity.

He wasn't interested because he felt it was too woke and PC. Although I might have wanted to go, I do remember rolling my eyes up several years ago when our local Gilbert and Sullivan group changed the words of The Mikado to make it more PC. Instead of "If you want to know who we are--we are gentlemen of Japan..." they changed it "If you want to know who we are--we are gentlemen of Milan..." and had it set in renaissance Italy. They were concerned that there were too many actors of European ancestry being dressed to look Japanese, although in the "Italian" version, there were multiple Asian (and black) actors who were "white-faced." Then there's Hamilton, of course.

Now the Latino-themed La Cucaracha is getting all in arms over James Franco getting hired to play the role of Fidel Castro (though most of the cast and crew are Latino):

https://www.gocomics.com/lacucaracha/2022/08/26

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/09/entertainment/james-franco-fidel-castro/index.html#:~:text=James Franco%2C here in June,Castro in an upcoming project.

I must confess, I feel an uneasy twinge when casting directors feel that only a straight person could play a gay character well (for example, the Harvey Milk movie). On the other hand, I feel we should simply hire whomever we feel would do the best job as an actor. Casting decisions don't have to be dictated by ethnicity or sexual orientation. What have been your feelings on this subject?

[Lonnie]

It's horrible and please someone make it stop!

Issue of the day: 'Woke' row as new play portrays Joan of Arc as non-binary

Maureen Sugden

12 August 2022·3-min read

 

 

 

'I, Joan' has sparked a 'woke' row for presenting Joan of Arc as non-binary

A PEASANT girl who became a military leader in medieval France, Joan of Arc's name has been remembered down through the centuries. Now a new production at Shakespeare’s Globe Theatre portrays the historic warrior as non-binary.

 

Joan of Arc?

 

Born around 1412, during the Hundred Years' War - between the kingdoms of France and England - Joan of Arc's family were peasant farmers. As a teenager, she spoke of experiencing visions which she said continued throughout her life, of Saint Margaret, Saint Michael and Saint Catherine, with the otherworldly experiences telling her at one point to ‘save France’ and lead her country to victory in the conflict.

 

She did so?

Despite having no military training, Joan cropped her hair and wore men’s clothes to travel across the country and demand the right from French crown prince, Charles of Valois, to lead a French army in the 1429 Siege of Orleans. Dressed in white armour and riding a white horse, her charge proved victorious.

 

However?

The following year, she was captured and faced a raft of charges - including witchcraft and dressing like a man - and at just 19, she was burned at the stake. Her efforts at the siege and beyond saw her quickly become an adored national hero and the patron saint of France.

 

Now?

Shakespeare's Globe in London, the complex which houses a reconstruction of the Globe Theatre which opened in 1599 and where William Shakespeare wrote his plays, is staging a new production, “I, Joan”, which features Joan as “a legendary leader who in this production, uses the pronouns ‘they/them". The play opens on August 25 in the open-air Globe Theatre. The theatre's artistic director, Michelle Terry, said: "We are not the first to present Joan in this way and we will not be the last. Regarding the use of pronouns, ‘they’ to refer to a singular person has been traced by the Oxford English Dictionary to as early as 1375, years before Joan was even born. Regardless, theatres do not deal with ‘historical reality’. Theatres produce plays, and in plays, anything can be possible.”

 

What’s the response been?

Reaction online includes one tweet saying, “Leave this female icon alone!” and another adding: “They are violating history. Enough with this stupid wokeness.”

 

But the theatre disagrees?

Terry adds: “For centuries, Joan has been a cultural icon portrayed in countless plays, books, films, etc. History has provided countless and wonderful examples of Joan portrayed as a woman. This production is simply offering the possibility of another point of view. That is the role of theatre: to simply ask the question ‘imagine if?’.”

And its author stands by it?

In a video interview available on YouTube about “I, Joan”, the writer, Charlie Josephine, said of the production: “It's going to be this big sweaty, queer, revolution, rebellion, festival of like joy. It's a big story, on a big stage, Joan of Arc was this incredible historical figure. Joan was this working class, young person, who was transgressing gender at a time when it as really dangerous and that just felt instantly relatable to me. I was assigned female at birth. I'm non-binary, I'm from a working class background. I've often felt like I've had something to say and haven't been given permission to say it.”

[Guest]

x

[JKane]

Eh, sometimes it's good and overdue representation, sometimes it goes too far.  If you thing something goes too far, don't see it.  

[Olddaddy]

How do you define Wokeness?

Similar to political correctness?

[alvnv]

1 hour ago, Olddaddy said:

How do you define Wokeness?

Similar to political correctness?

Overly sensitive and PC

[unicorn]

18 hours ago, Olddaddy said:

How do you define Wokeness?

Similar to political correctness?

In many ways, I see wokeness as an attempt to white-wash, or color-wash, the past instead of acknowledging it and putting it into context. Often this means trying to impugn today's more enlightened values instead of showing things as they were, and explaining that our values have changed. At other times, it involves wholesale book-burning rather than preserving the demonstration of how our culture has changed. For example, the movie Breakfast at Tiffany's portrays some highly offensive racial stereotypes, which certainly could never have been produced today. Rather than banning the movie, the movie has a preface which prepares the audience for the offensive material, and explains how times have changed. In watching the movie, one can therefore gain an appreciation for how society has advanced (as one shrieks "Oh, my god!" while viewing the offensive parts). 

In other works, however, the works have simply been banned, such as the movie Song of the South and multiple Dr. Seuss books. At other times, works are simply changed to place our more modern, enlightened values onto old works, such as G&S's Mikado, or R&H's Oklahoma!. I personally think there's value in being able to view things as they were, so that we can reflect as to how far we've come. Seeing how things have changed for the better gives us appreciation for the courageous acts of those who helped instill that change, such as Jackie Robinson. One should view the past as it was in order to avoid repeating the mistakes of times past.

 

[JKane]

Quote

In other works, however, the works have simply been banned, such as the movie Song of the South and multiple Dr. Seuss books. 

 

The couple problematic Dr. Seuss books weren't banned.  They were removed from publication BY THE SEUSS ESTATE/FAMILY.  

 

So fucking tired of the right wing-nut taking points being abjectly wrong and even opposite (WHICH SIDE IS CURRENTLY BANNING BOOKS?) while people just let that fly by without thought or challenge.  

 

And Song of the South, should it be featured on Disney Streaming?  Or should the company be ashamed of it while University media programs use it to teach with?  But wait, no, THAT'S Critical Race Theory!!!!  You can't discus abject pervasive racism in the past, even though it's demonstrable!  

 

[sterial]

Interesting ! 

[caeron]

Joan of Arc WAS non-binary, at least, maybe trans. She fucking fought in a damn war at a time when women didn't. Suggesting that she was a CIS female is idiotic.

I'm fine if wokeness doesn't get in the way of the story. I find art that lectures me uninteresting.

 

[Pete1111]

A great movie that I love was ignored by Outfest.

I assume their woke police did not want to risk triggering the audience.  That was a shame.

 

The woke changes to West Side Story were too many.  I still like the film, but the new version went overboard.   Might have been better just to fix the obvious problems.

[Marc in Calif]

On 8/26/2022 at 9:36 AM, unicorn said:

I asked my domestic partner if he'd be interested in this new production of Oklahoma! they're putting up in Los Angeles...

He wasn't interested because he felt it was too woke and PC. Although I might have wanted to go, I do remember rolling my eyes up several years ago when our local Gilbert and Sullivan group changed the words of The Mikado to make it more PC. Instead of "If you want to know who we are--we are gentlemen of Japan..." they changed it "If you want to know who we are--we are gentlemen of Milan..." and had it set in renaissance Italy. They were concerned that there were too many actors of European ancestry being dressed to look Japanese, although in the "Italian" version, there were multiple Asian (and black) actors who were "white-faced." Then there's Hamilton, of course...

Just came across this old thread...

So knowing all about this new production, you and your partner DID decide to go to Oklahoma! last summer in LA. And after you saw it, you complained about it over on that other site, calling it "Wokelahoma." 🙄

After you complained about the production that you paid to see, I responded as follows: 

Any theatergoer would have known the details of this (by now) well-known production. Are you saying that you were completely clueless about it before you purchased tickets? 

So you did know the details beforehand — and you went anyway? You clearly knew all about the new production and its changes.

I think you have yourself to blame if you purchased tickets to something that you already knew you wouldn't like or appreciate. But maybe you decided to see it just so you could come online to complain and make one of your favorite political points? 🤷‍♂️

[forky123]

Woke - alert to injustice and discrimination in society, especially racism. I don't see a problem with being alert to such things. Many of these areas are improving in many, though not all, countries. Perhaps we should all be more woke, not less. I find that the entertainment and art industries are often the most sensitive to such issues and among the first to accept people discriminated against in other areas of society.

Do people go too far in some areas? Certainly. It's pretty hard though to have experienced prejudice for so much of your life, see things improving and then see people trying to revert and reintroduce prejudice. 

Everyone should make their own decisions over re-imaginings of old plays and films. If you just wanted a repeat of the original you could have stayed home and watched it? Surely it's the job of any new production to create something new and appropriate to today rather than regurgitate productions of the past. 

Bring on the wokeness. I'm capable enough to filter the things I want to see and use the off button if necessary. Personally I enjoy seeing things that challenge preconceived ideas. 

[unicorn]

On 3/22/2023 at 9:38 PM, Marc in Calif said:

...

I think you have yourself to blame if you purchased tickets to something that you already knew you wouldn't like or appreciate. But maybe you decided to see it just so you could come online to complain and make one of your favorite political points? 🤷‍♂️

You're putting words in my mouth incorrectly. I did know that there would be bizarre casting. And this is one of my favorite musicals, so I did appreciate the performance (at least the music). I didn't know the group was going to change the plot (in fact, in their blurb, they stated the plots and the song were going to be unchanged, only the latter of which was true). So while I appreciated the music, I didn't appreciate the plot changes. The same group will soon be putting on a production of 1776, another of my favorite musicals. In this production, not one of our founding fathers will be played by a white male. It's this group that's trying to make political points, and this time we won't be going. 

[Marc in Calif]

On 3/24/2023 at 12:59 PM, unicorn said:

You're putting words in my mouth incorrectly. I did know that there would be bizarre casting. And this is one of my favorite musicals, so I did appreciate the performance (at least the music). I didn't know the group was going to change the plot (in fact, in their blurb, they stated the plots and the song were going to be unchanged, only the latter of which was true). 

On August 26, 2022, you already knew about -- and posted above-- this rather complete description of plot and theme changes:

Without changing a word of text, this visionary 21st-century reimagining allows the classic musical to be seen in a whole new light. Among its themes are hotly-contested conversations about gun violence, Native American land rights, climate change, xenophobia, and toxic masculinity.

Yet you still bought tickets and saw the show on September 21. That's what is so perplexing. 

[unicorn]

If you're not changing a word of the text (which they did), you're not changing the plot. 

[Marc in Calif]

13 hours ago, unicorn said:

If you're not changing a word of the text (which they did), you're not changing the plot. 

I hate to tell you this, but there is much more to a theater work's "plot" than just the words. 

[unicorn]

4 hours ago, Marc in Calif said:

I hate to tell you this, but there is much more to a theater work's "plot" than just the words. 

True. That being said, they did change some of the words. As for 1776, in casting mostly women of color to play the founding fathers, I'm sure they're trying promote a narrative that the founding fathers were sexist and racist, looking at it from 21st Century eyes. The truth is that the declaration of independence had to be unanimous, and there was no way of getting southern states on board at that time without postponing the issue of slavery. And I don't think there was a democracy on the planet which allowed women to vote at that time. Very unfortunate, yes, but that was the truth of the 18th Century. And the founding fathers very much risked their lives to support an independent democracy. As America fast approaches its semiquincentennial, I can honor the courage of the founding fathers without having to point out advances they were unable to achieve at that time. 

[Riobard]

On 3/26/2023 at 9:27 PM, unicorn said:

I tried to redact the quote … I was speed-scanning and read semiquincentennial as sequincentennial. Now that would be woke. 😏

[PeterRS]

On 8/26/2022 at 11:36 PM, unicorn said:

Although I might have wanted to go, I do remember rolling my eyes up several years ago when our local Gilbert and Sullivan group changed the words of The Mikado to make it more PC. Instead of "If you want to know who we are--we are gentlemen of Japan..." they changed it "If you want to know who we are--we are gentlemen of Milan..." and had it set in renaissance Italy. They were concerned that there were too many actors of European ancestry being dressed to look Japanese, although in the "Italian" version, there were multiple Asian (and black) actors who were "white-faced."

I have never thought much about 'woke' and have wondered why the word has gained such traction.

Reading the above, my first reaction was ridiculous! How can you reset a quintissentially Japanese G&S parody to Renaissance Italy?  How do you make Sullivan's pseudo-Japanese music work? Then I realised it was only the music I was really concerned about because it simply would not fit the concept. In theatre (and often, paradoxically perhaps, opera), though, resetting the period and even the country can work extremely effectively. I recall seeing two theatre companies present stunning productions of classics reset to Japan. The Ninagawa Company took its Macbeth set in samurai Japan to the Edinburgh Festival and later London in the mid-1980s. It was adored by audiences and critics alike. The same country's Suzuki Company took its versions of various Greek classics on tour to various countries. I saw its Elektra with strong Noh and Kabuki influences and was overwhelmed by its stunning physicality and overall effect.

Would wokeness have resulted in such productions being banned?

[Marc in Calif]

3 hours ago, PeterRS said:

Would wokeness have resulted in such productions being banned?

Some people claim that such productions are indeed woke -- too woke for their own delicate sensibilities. 😇

[alvnv]

4 hours ago, PeterRS said:

I have never thought much about 'woke' and have wondered why the word has gained such traction.

Reading the above, my first reaction was ridiculous! How can you reset a quintissentially Japanese G&S parody to Renaissance Italy?  How do you make Sullivan's pseudo-Japanese music work? Then I realised it was only the music I was really concerned about because it simply would not fit the concept. In theatre (and often, paradoxically perhaps, opera), though, resetting the period and even the country can work extremely effectively. I recall seeing two theatre companies present stunning productions of classics reset to Japan. The Ninagawa Company took its Macbeth set in samurai Japan to the Edinburgh Festival and later London in the mid-1980s. It was adored by audiences and critics alike. The same country's Suzuki Company took its versions of various Greek classics on tour to various countries. I saw its Elektra with strong Noh and Kabuki influences and was overwhelmed by its stunning physicality and overall effect.

Would wokeness have resulted in such productions being banned?

La Boheme and the Rent

[Marc in Calif]

10 hours ago, alvnv said:

La Boheme and the Rent

Yes, Rudolfo and Marcello couldn't pay their rent!

[Riobard]

From my limited understanding, I thought the origins of the term referred to inculcating within the persecuted reference group a sense of careful and resilient watchfulness for the abuse itself. Essentially, a survivalist stance, the word gaining traction within the vernacular of surveillance for safety. Therefore, had little staying power in terms of a term appropriated within the bedrock of egalitarian values. So, a term that reflected a stance in relation to a problem did not exactly fit the methodology for attenuating that problem because its provenance restricted fluidity of meaning. Hence, vulnerability to disagreement about applicability, if not subject to meme status. That said, the common thread would be mindful awareness and getting caught up the term is likely fizzling out. Time of death: 14:24 EDT. It isn’t to say narrative alterations that challenge stereotypes don’t have their place.

[kokopelli3]

Very erudite elucidation of the embodiment of wokeness, Reader; whatever you meant.😵‍💫