Why this Thai boy was offended?

[reader]

I was just thinking back about 18 months ago when all we talked about was how much we missed Thailand. We hung on any news of declining covid cases; any indication that the country may open up again. Now we find ourselves warning each other about the snares waiting to entrap us in Thailand.

 

[vinapu]

3 hours ago, reader said:

I was just thinking back about 18 months ago when all we talked about was how much we missed Thailand. We hung on any news of declining covid cases; any indication that the country may open up again. Now we find ourselves warning each other about the snares waiting to entrap us in Thailand.

 

and we can't wait to be subject of that entrapment again and again !

On serious note, it does happen but not too often  Most boys we met are behaving professionally , providing requested service for  a fee  and closing door when done.

[Boy69]

1 hour ago, vinapu said:

and we can't wait to be subject of that entrapment again and again !

On serious note, it does happen but not too often  Most boys we met are behaving professionally , providing requested service for  a fee  and closing door when done.

Yes I agree it because most of the boys have family,study or day work commitments ,they don't have the time or the energy to play long time romantic games with potential naive farangs they provide requested service take the fee and go, many of them have boyfriend/girlfriend/married and their partners don't allow long term relationships with farangs anyway. 

[Gaybutton]

14 minutes ago, Boy69 said:

 many of them have boyfriend/girlfriend/married and their partners don't allow long term relationships with farangs anyway. 

Unless the farang is handing over a lot of money.  Then it's "What are you doing home?  The farang is waiting.  Go on, go, go go!  And don't forget to remind him that I'm your sister, not your wife . . ."

[Min]

Thanks everyone for chipping in. As a follow-up, I was in M2M last night for one more show before I leave Pattaya. To be safe, I asked a Thai boy to go with me 😅 

I can confirm that the Hornet guy is indeed working there. This time, I saw him immediately upon entering the bar. He also saw me, then just looked away and I got served by another waiter. So that was that. I was so relieved

Usually I went to M2M just to watch the show and ogle at some cute dancers there. Also the guy in question is quite decent-looking but he wasn't my type. Although he might have gotten my drink orders many times before, we never so much as had eye contact (that why he said "you never look me" in his message). The fact that I had to go back to the bar to be sure it was him just shows how much I actually knew the guy 

At any rate, I have been going to Pattaya for years and became a regular customer of a few boys (never sent anyone any money when I was not in Thailand though as my motto has always been "you have to work for it"). But this is the first time I had problems with someone I didn't even know. I have no intention of getting to know him better or trying to solve our miscommunication. I just wanted to know if I did anything wrong in order to be able to avoid the same mistake in the future.

Thanks @Gaybutton and @gayinpattaya for your shared stories. And I think @PeterRS made a very good point: "unless you know a guy at least a little, joking with Thai boys often backfire" As someone who tend to make unwarranted jokes, I need to keep that in mind.

[Gaybutton]

5 hours ago, reader said:

We hung on any news of declining covid cases; any indication that the country may open up again. Now we find ourselves warning each other about the snares waiting to entrap us in Thailand.

 

No argument there.  I'm writing from the perspective of someone who lives in Pattaya, so even during Covid I didn't have to be worried whether Thailand was opening soon or not.  Lucky me . . .

[Gaybutton]

2 minutes ago, Min said:

I just wanted to know if I did anything wrong

The only thing you did wrong was thinking you did something wrong.  You did nothing wrong at all.

You make a good point about trying to joke with them, at least until you know the kinds of things they think are funny and the kinds of jokes they just don't get.  Rodney Dangerfield would be a total flop in Thailand.  And don't take it personally or feel insulted if a boy calls you old or fat or bald.  That's one of their ideas of humor and they mean nothing by it.  Understanding their sense of humor takes time.  For example, if a boy calls me fat, I just laugh and tell him I'm not fat.  I'm having a baby.  That's the kind of thing they think is hilarious.

[reader]

The OP presented a legitimate concern and many (myself included) responded with what I'm sure is well-intentioned advice. My comment goes to the irony of it all; when we finally got what we wanted--an open door policy to the LOS--we are now quick to see bad intentions in those we've traveled long and far to meet again.

Couldn't it just be a simple misunderstanding between people who speak a different language and come from a different culture, as I believe Min alluded to in his opening post? It doesn't necessarily have to be a sinister plot to coerce money out of us, does it?

Because they provide a service we seem to highly value, it's tempting to place them on a lower plane and see ulterior motives in their actions. Can't we just give them the benefit of the doubt. What I'm suggesting is that we not jump to the worst-case scenario based on anecdotal examples of what some other guys did in the past.

I think all of us have likely done stupid things in our earlier interactions with mb's. Maybe it was a harsh word and inappropriate reaction. They most likely gave us a second chance. That's all I'm suggesting here.

 

 

[Gaybutton]

1 hour ago, reader said:

It doesn't necessarily have to be a sinister plot to coerce money out of us, does it?

Yes, it does.  That is exactly what is going on.   I wouldn't go as far as calling it sinister or calling it a plot, but with all I've seen, heard, and personally experienced over the years, I'm convinced the vast majority of the money boys are trying to do just that - and I don't blame them.  You know why?  Because too many farang treat them as if they are nothing more than sex machines, make empty promises, screw over the boys, and generally treat them as if they and their lives mean nothing.  Many make no effort whatsoever to understand anything at all about their lives and culture.  It's just give me my happy ending massage and here's the smallest amount I can get away with tipping you.  Nearly all the money boys I've known over the years have stories about being treated like that - more often than not. 

If you've been on these boards long enough, you probably have seen that for yourself - farang trying to figure out the cheapest they can get away with giving to these boys.

Just today one of the boys was telling me what happened to him a few days go.  He advertises himself on some of the apps as a massage boy.  That's all he does and he'll say so.  He'll give a good massage and a happy ending, but no fucking.  Meanwhile, he says, most of the farang trying to make an arrangement with him make it clear they want to fuck him.  He turns them down.  But just a few days ago one customer said he understood and won't try to go beyond his limits.  The boy went to the farang's place, started the massage, and shortly into it the farang wanted to fuck him.  The boy reminded him of what the agreement was.  The farang gave him a couple hundred baht and told him harshly to get out.  He'll find another boy who will do what he wants.

Have you any idea of how many similar stories I've heard over the years?  Most are much worse.  You can label it a "sinister plot" if you want to, but I see it much differently.

So, I stand by exactly what I have already posted on this topic.  Nobody has to agree with me, but I'm in a position to know more about it than most on these boards.  I see it as I see it.  If anyone doesn't want to believe me, fine with me - believe whatever you want.

[reader]

If it’s as bad as all that I can’t envision reason to remain.

if I didn’t know better I’d think we’re a bunch of old men with nothing better to do than complain about the young men we lust after.

[vinapu]

7 hours ago, Gaybutton said:

And don't take it personally or feel insulted if a boy calls you old or fat or bald. 

or even worse , KFC man as I was called on few occasions.

When they call us those things they don't mean to be mean, rather thy say it matter-of-factly. 

That illustrates well difference  -  what is neutral for them , may be bit offensive for others and other way around.

[vinapu]

46 minutes ago, reader said:

if I didn’t know better I’d think we’re a bunch of old men with nothing better to do than complain about the young men we lust after.

I,  for one,  am not complaining. Not all boys I met were angels, some  had problems to keep their promised side of bargain, but often improved given second chance ( I said it 127 times already my second worst off  and THE BEST were with the same guy perhaps  2 trips apart ). Few enthusiastic on the first off started slacking a bit on the next one but overall picture is rosy one . It's why , like many, I  keep returning and returning.

Like Min , I believe money should be earned and don't send them money when they ask and needs to be said some are shockingly straightforward with their requests ( " I need 20000 baht and my account is xxxxxxx " , I'm kidding you not ) but I treat is as part of folklore. Not discounting fact they may be in genuine need, I just don't intend  carry somebody else's problems on my shoulder. 

But at times it pays to be generous. W  hen in covid time I learned guy I like is in problem on my own I sent him some money not even being sure he remembers me. Year later we met by chance in soi4 , he not only recognized me but also thanked me for the money,  so obviously he valued it more than me.   

So at end of day guys are in it for money and we can't blame them  for trying to earn it by , after all,  honest means. We have our brains and from time to need to use them not to fall into entrapments skillfully set.

[reader]

31 minutes ago, vinapu said:

 So at end of day guys are in it for money and we can't blame them  for trying to earn it by , after all,  honest means. We have our brains and from time to need to use them not to fall into entrapments skillfully set.

I'd surely agree with that. Using common sense avoids the potential pitfalls.

However, I don't believe that there's a vast conspiracy of mb's out there who are intent on fleecing us of out all our worth. If that were indeed the case, why would any prudent person be so desperate as to venture into it. And I don't believe the majority of members believes it, either.

[Londoner]

Gay falangs get a good deal in Thailand for 99% of the time. There's nowhere in the world where beautiful guys , a night out, good dinner and hotel are so cheap.  And equally important, safe. The vast majority of us recognise this and are thankful for it.  It was entirely reasonable for Min to show sensitivity and concern. There really are guys in desperate situations, the like of which  few of us have faced. And sometimes  we may be exploited.

We make the decision to travel there, or even to live there; anyone not able to cope with the occasional (very occasional, in my twenty-five years experience) exploitative guy should stay at home and pay UK or US or European prices for beautiful guys, a night out and so on.  We are in someone else's country, where the vast majority of citizens are  much  poorer than us. Put up with it.  I hope we continue- and this forum suggests that most of us do- to take the seriously the feelings of the guys we meet, even if that sometimes makes us vulnerable to the occasional con-man. Just as Min did.

 

 

 

[vinapu]

58 minutes ago, reader said:

However, I don't believe that there's a vast conspiracy of mb's out there who are intent on fleecing us

neither do I, some may be sniffing an opportunity and try so we need to use common sense like you said above. 

[floridarob]

2 hours ago, vinapu said:

or even worse , KFC man as I was called on few occasions.

I can't look at the KFC logo now without thinking, there's a wise man 😉

[Min]

3 hours ago, vinapu said:

I said it 127 times already my second worst off  and THE BEST were with the same guy perhaps  2 trips apart

It's actually 125 times. I keep count.

[Gaybutton]

4 hours ago, reader said:

However, I don't believe that there's a vast conspiracy of mb's out there who are intent on fleecing us of out all our worth.

Neither do I.  You're greatly exaggerating what I'm trying to say.  All I'm trying to convey is it is very easy to fall into the trap, even if that is not at all what the boy intended, so be careful and use common sense.  For me it is not a question of what I believe.  It is a question of what I see, what I'm told, and what I know has happened between many farang and boys.  I'm talking about money boys.  What do you think a money boy is after? 

I am perfectly well aware that most farang go to Thailand, have a great time, and nothing goes wrong during their stay and after they return home.  But enough of it does happen that it is easy to lose sight of reality.  Over the years I've seen too much.  As I said, believe whatever you want, but I'm telling you I know what I'm talking about.  Enjoy your time in Thailand with the boys, but remember - you stand warned.

[reader]

Thanks for the warning, Gaybutton, but--except for the covid period--I've been traveling to Thailand three times annually for the last 20 years and also know what I'm talking about. Since most all of that time has been spent in Bangkok, I gladly concede to you a superior knowledge of Pattaya where I believe that you've spent most all of your time.  Let's just say we've had very different experiences and leave it at that. Otherwise, nothing either of us has to say on that matter will influence the other.  I wish you happy days going forward.

[Gaybutton]

12 minutes ago, reader said:

Let's just say we've had very different experiences and leave it at that.

Ok, I agree.  You've said your piece and I've said mine.  All done.  Nothing to be gained by continuing.

[colmx]

I think all of the above can be condensed to:

There is a very small minority of farang that try to manipulate the boys and treat them badly, we all know that.

There is also a very small minority of boys that try to manipulate farang to do their bidding. I see this day in day out on Facebook where the same guys try to guilt trip some unlucky guy into doing what ever it is they require. Similarly I have seen them play mind games on the gay apps and throw a hissy fit when they don't get their way.

Either was both camps are best avoided!

[alvnv]

And I know of a Nigerian prince who has a multi-million dollar fortune tied up and needs a measly few thousand dollars to free it up and share it with a kind-hearted stranger 🤣

On a serious note, I believe we should approach each case without pre-conceived notions or confirmation bias, but thread carefully - this board has given us enough examples of ill-will from farangs and locals alike.

[PeterRS]

In my bar-going days, when differences arose between a farang and one of the bar boys, I usually found the bar boys' versions were correct. Years ago there was a waiter at Classic Boys whom I really liked. I asked if I could off him. He seemed pleased. I said I would like it if he would bottom. He said he had little experience but would try. Did I still want to off him? I did. He certainly did his best, but being a bottom was too painful for him. So we spent the off time doing other things and I had a really enjoyable time with him. He fully deserved his tip.

A few weeks later I was chatting to him in the bar. He said another English-speaking farang had offed him, again on the basis that he'd try to bottom but again after informing the farang he was inexperienced and could not guarantee it would work. The farang took him to the Suriwong Hotel short time rooms. As with me, it didn't work. The farang became angry and told him to get dressed and leave. He did not even give this very pleasant young man a tip.

I agree that there are duds amongst both some boys and some customers. But I am sure they were few and far between in those days because the boys always had the mamasans whom they could report a dud customer to. Now with the apps, things have obviously changed.

[Londoner]

Yes. This site is for falangs, not Thais. Posters on this site (and I hope I'm one of them) often seek to present the views and experiences of Thai guys on the scene as best they can but  we are  merely reporters. Please take it from me; there are many guys out there who are sensitive to the manner in which they are treated . Appreciative  often but sometimes hurt. The inability of most of us to speak Thai competently can prevent us from gaining insights into their feelings particularly since their ideal is to maintain a "jen yai"... a cool heart. This can mean not showing emotion. Sometimes they go back to their rooms quietly but deeply hurt and disappointed.

Peter RS's post recounts a tale I've heard elsewhere and I expect everyone else has too;  "Well, I payed for it and so I'm going to get it, however much it hurts him." And in one case, as recounted to me, the pain inflicted even gave enjoyment to the customer.

We are paying for a service that can seem to be analogous to having a hair-cut  but it is a lot more than that because of the intimacy of the transaction  and the emotions aroused. None of us wants to be taken advantage of but nor do our hosts. If either party doesn't comply with the rules of the game, hurt is inevitable.

[Shonen]

I think the boys are sometimes victimized by cheap skates. Remember the most important thing to a man is sex, the next is money.

So after having had an orgasm, the first thought is saving money. Maybe lowering the expected tip for the boy.

If I was a mb, I would try to unionize and request payment first like in most other countries. That would give more power to the mb.

We’re very lucky that’s not the case yet. But you never know.