The age of next supersonic airliner nears

[reader]

It's reported today that American Airlines has agreed to buy 20 supersonic airliners, making it the second US carrier to book orders after United earlier signed on for 15 of the "Overture" jets from manufacturer Boom.

According to CNBC, the plane will fly as fast as Mach 1.7, or 1,304 mph, dramatically cutting trans-Atlantic and trans-Pacific flight times. For example, a flight from Seattle to Tokyo, which typically takes just over 10 hours, could be completed in six hours.

Boom says its supersonic planes will carry 65 to 80 passenger while flying on sustainable aviation fuel offering lower emissions. Boom will build the jet at a new manufacturing plant in North Carolina and expects to roll out the first model in 2025, with the first flight in 2026. If the flight tests and certification process goes as scheduled, Boom says the Overture will enter commercial service by the end of the decade, the website reported.

Continues with video at

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/16/american-airlines-agrees-to-buy-20-supersonic-planes-from-boom.html

 

 

[PeterRS]

Having once taken Concorde from London to New York, I'll start by saying I loved the experience. The pampering at both ends was also great. Since it was an upgrade, I have no complaints about the price! Did halving the journey time mean much to me? No, but then I was not a businessman in which time meant money. My one dislike was the narrow seat and lack of legroom. Then again Concorde was a design from the 1950s/60s when leg room was not a major issue for relatively short haul flights.

According to information put out by Boom, there are 500 over-water routes that can be served by their new supersonic plane. It will cut the time dramatically on trans Atlantic routes. Not so much over the Pacific because its range will require a refuelling stop. Will 6 hours from SFO to Tokyo encourage many passengers to switch from the current 10 hours for subsonic jets? According to the International Council on Clean Transportation it will also burn three times as much fuel as subsonic jets with higher payloads. Its engines are likely to be standard military jet engines which will be quieter than Concorde's engines. But it will not eliminate the sonic boom and so presumably, like Concorde, it will not be able to fly over land.

[vinapu]

1 hour ago, PeterRS said:

 According to the International Council on Clean Transportation it will also burn three times as much fuel as subsonic jets with higher payloads.

I wonder what Greta and her supporters will say about that new development ?

[PeterRS]

43 minutes ago, vinapu said:

I wonder what Greta and her supporters will say about that new development ?

"Take a boat! I did!"

[reader]

While on the subject of mileage, a little bit of Greta goes a long way.

[alvnv]

10 hours ago, vinapu said:

I wonder what Greta and her supporters will say about that new development ?

Although Overture claims to use sustainable aviation fuel and be net-zero carbon 🤔

[vinapu]

1 hour ago, alvnv said:

Although Overture claims to use sustainable aviation fuel and be net-zero carbon 🤔

somehow  I, not worried much about those things,  doubt it, not to mention Greta

[reader]

I agree that we shouldn't hold our breath, waiting for Greta's blessing on supersonic flight.

Indeed, Greta doesn't believe that we should be flying at all. She's doing her best to shame those who do fly ("flygskam" in her native Swedish).

For those who choose to heed her message, you might catch the Orient Express from Europe to Istanbul and then look for connections by boat to Kaduying Port (THBKK) that lies about 40 kilometers from the Gulf of Thailand on the Chao Phraya River. Allow about three weeks (add another week if originating your trip in North America). Your journey won't come cheap (about the cost of a first-class air ticket) but you'll have a fully flat bed to sleep in every night and ample time to catch up on that reading.

[JKane]

Greta probably agrees this isn't worth talking about as it has approximately 0.05% chance of happening.  A great Reddit thread described it as "powered by hopes and dreams; powered by Photoshop until the free trial expires".  

They have no engine.  Their "flying prototype" hasn't...  These vaunted contracts are minor fees upfront and a whole lot of stipulations and easy exits.  The Concord had 18+ airlines signed and ended up ever delivering to... two.  And there was a hell of a lot more behind the Concord than this fantasy.   

Given that no airline is putting real money in at this stage the only way this could ever get off the ground is people investing, I doubt there are enough stupid people in the whole world to get near what they'd need--assuming they're fully serious and competent.  Far easier to Photoshop up a nice pamphlet and press release, wait for the idiotic press to go way overboard about it, and cash in on whatever stupid money you can grab for as long as you can keep pushing back the promised dates than to seriously try--either way the results are almost guaranteed to be the same!    

[10tazione]

1 hour ago, reader said:

but you'll have a fully flat bed to sleep in every night and ample time to catch up on that reading

and horny sailors. The journey is the reward.

[vinapu]

29 minutes ago, 10tazione said:

and horny sailors. 

instead of thinking how to save planet you have only one thing in mind

[fedssocr]

They need to find someone to design and build the engines first. Might not be a trivial undertaking. 

[kjun12]

22 hours ago, vinapu said:

I wonder what Greta and her supporters will say about that new development ?

Please excuse my ignorance but who is Greta?

[alvnv]

8 hours ago, reader said:

For those who choose to heed her message, you might catch the Orient Express from Europe to Istanbul and then look for connections by boat to Kaduying Port (THBKK) that lies about 40 kilometers from the Gulf of Thailand on the Chao Phraya River. Allow about three weeks (add another week if originating your trip in North America). Your journey won't come cheap (about the cost of a first-class air ticket) but you'll have a fully flat bed to sleep in every night and ample time to catch up on that reading.

Trains run either on diesel, or electricity, generated, mainly by burning fossil fuels. Until we are able to generate electricity using renewable resources we’ll be stuck in this rut, forced to choose the lesser of the evils. Otherwise, for air travel she can take a hot air ballon or zeppelin, and for ocean crossings - a sail boat, nuclear submarine, or galley (good luck getting rowers, though - unless you are able to recruit some diehard gym bunnies)

[alvnv]

8 minutes ago, kjun12 said:

Please excuse my ignorance but who is Greta?

A Swedish teenage environmental activist: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greta_Thunberg 

[PeterRS]

7 hours ago, fedssocr said:

They need to find someone to design and build the engines first. Might not be a trivial undertaking. 

2 years ago Boom announced it had done a deal wth Rolls Royce to develop the engines. If I rememer correctly it was Rolls Royce who designed the engines for the then new tri-jet, the Lockheed Tristar L-1011. The plane was the most technologically advanced of its day - more so than the 747. But Rolls Royce encountered huge problems developing its RB-211 engines, so much so that the company effectively went bankrupt. The rump that was left was split into two divisions. Eventually, 18 months late, its RB-211 engine was delivered and proved to be a major success. However, that delay had allowed the rival tri-jet DC-10 to enter the market well in advance and several airlines switched orders to the McDonnell Douglas plane. Production of the Tristar was ended after only 249 had been sold - well short of the 500 required to make it commercially viable. Ironically the Tristar was a much better aircraft and the DC10 went on to encounter several total loss crashes, at least two as a result of design flaws and others due to poor maintenance.

The Trent 1000 engines developed for the Boeing 787 have had two sets of costly issues resulting from firstly a design flaw and then parts which wore out earlier then specified. Some of the aircraft had to be grounded leading to flight cancellations and some airlines having to lease other aircraft to maintain their schedules. 

Presumably Boom is aware of all this!

[thaiophilus]

7 hours ago, alvnv said:

 Otherwise, for air travel she can take a hot air ballon or zeppelin,

Hot air balloons (mostly - solar-powered ones are possible) rely on fossil fuels too.

[unicorn]

Was a dumb idea back then, still a dumb idea. Not too many people are flying across oceans for quick business meetings. I have a suspicion that those people who have extra money would rather spend it for a flat-bed seat on a comfortable wide-body and spend 10 hours on the flight, rather than paying a good deal extra for an uncomfortable seat on a 6-hour flight. Ultimately the same idea. 

[PeterRS]

Let's remember that when the concept for Concorde was announced and during its development, 18 airlines placed options or orders for the aircraft. These included American, Pan Am, Continental, TWA, United, Eastern, Braniff, Qantas, Japan, Air India and others. I wonder how many of those airlines now takng options on Boom's new product will actually convert them to purchases.

[caeron]

 

I think the higher costs will make this a very niche product. Like Unicorn says, arrive in super comfort after 10 hours, or cattle for 6? Is the 4 hours really worth it? I doubt it.

This will only sell to those to whom time is a super premium.

[alvnv]

8 hours ago, caeron said:

 

I think the higher costs will make this a very niche product. Like Unicorn says, arrive in super comfort after 10 hours, or cattle for 6? Is the 4 hours really worth it? I doubt it.

I don’t know what Boom cabin looks like, but I would not call that of Concorde a cattle class

[reader]

If that covers the discussion (which it probably hasn't 😉) of the fastest aircraft, here's some news from the current issue of Aviation Week about the biggest.

Singapore Airlines is now operating more 380's than any of its competitors in the Asia-Pacific region. The carrier is flying 10 of the jumbos with two more slated to return to service as soon as retrofitting is completed.

Thai Airways has six jumbos and recently announced plans to sell off two. No plans for the remaining four were disclosed.

[unicorn]

On 8/20/2022 at 1:17 PM, alvnv said:

I don’t know what Boom cabin looks like, but I would not call that of Concorde a cattle class

Although I was never a passenger on the Concorde, I have been inside the cabin of two former Concordes in museums, and I can assure you that those seats were not comfortable. This is what they look like, from the Wikipedia:

These seats are typical of what an economy, or perhaps premium economy seat might be like today. So while the price was certainly not "cattle class," the seat comfort certainly was. Apparently, you even had to hold it in for the flight, even though the champagne was flowing:

"..."She was a Concorde regular, and whispered candidly to me, 'You better go to the washroom now. It is impossible to pee once in the air. Too small,'" said Su.
"For a girl used to flying steerage, once through the doors of the sleek, tiny, cigar tube into the body of Concorde, I knew I had entered into the rarified air of gods and kings. But dang, things were small and cramped. Leather, polish and flutes of never-ending Champagne, but really squished...."

(from https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/concorde-flying-what-was-it-like/index.html)

As one can read from the article, it was a noisy, jarring, and cramped experience, albeit a relatively brief one. There's no way to say for certain, of course, but I suspect that most people flew the plane for the certificate they received, and to be able to say "I flew on the Concorde," rather than because the 4 hours they gained were more important than the higher price than the 1st class tickets on other planes. 

If they ever get built, Boom seats will probably be a bit more comfortable than the Concorde's, but that will just force the price differential even higher. This may be a matter of speculation, but I doubt that the vast majority of people with extra money to burn are more concerned with a few hours' time savings rather than comfort. There will certainly be some. as was the case for the Concorde, who will fly the plane for bragging rights alone. But how many times does one need to do that?

https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/supersonic-air-travel-just-took-another-big-step-toward-its-ncna828431

[fedssocr]

Don't those people just fly private these days?

[unicorn]

26 minutes ago, fedssocr said:

Don't those people just fly private these days?

Probably true. And there will certainly be a limited number of people who will fly any new supersonic jet for bragging rights. But those with money to burn would probably rather fly in a private jet, relaxing or sleeping on the sofa, rather than fly in cramped quarters to save a few hours.