Gaybutton Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 The following appears in the BANGKOK POST: _____ 'Killing Fields' Trial Begins PHNOM PENH (AFP) -- The torturer-in-chief for Cambodia's Khmer Rouge regime finally faced trial Tuesday in the first case heard by a UN-backed genocide tribunal into the horrors of the "Killing Fields" 30 years ago. Kaing Guek Eav, better known by the alias Duch, faces charges of crimes against humanity over his iron-fisted rule at Tuol Sleng prison, where he is accused of presiding over the deaths of 15,000 men, women and children. He sat solemnly in the dock as hundreds of people turned up to watch the start of proceedings against a key figure in the ultra-communist regime, which killed around two million people in one of the 20th century's worst atrocities. "I prayed for dawn as soon as possible so that I could see this trial start," said artist Vann Nath, who became one of only a about a dozen survivors from the prison after he was put to work painting pro-regime pictures. Under Duch, a former math teacher now aged 66, Tuol Sleng was used to extract false confessions from alleged traitors that they were agents of foreign powers including the CIA. Most inmates were taken from the prison, a former high school, for execution at nearby Choeung Ek, an orchard now known as the "Killing Fields". Adults were beaten to death with hoes while children's heads were smashed against trees. On Tuesday, Duch wore a blue shirt and listened through earphones as the court opened the trial behind a huge bullet-proof screen to prevent revenge attacks by his victims. He did not speak publicly. Officials transported him to court in an armoured Land Cruiser the short distance from the nearby villa where he is being held with four top Khmer Rouge leaders, who all face trial later this year. Duch is charged with crimes against humanity, war crimes, torture and premeditated murder and faces a life sentence. The tribunal cannot impose the death penalty. "This first hearing represents the realisation of significant efforts in establishing a fair and independent tribunal to try those in senior leadership positions," chief judge Nil Nonn said at the opening of the trial. For Cambodians the controversial tribunal, established in 2006 after nearly a decade of wrangling between Cambodia and the United Nations, is seen as the last chance to bring the Khmer Rouge's surviving leaders to book. Court spokeswoman Helen Jarvis said Tuesday's initial hearing was "very, very significant" for the conflict-scarred nation, even though it is expected to last less than three days as it involves procedural matters. With full testimony not due to start until March, defence lawyer Francois Roux complained to the court that it was "unacceptable" that Duch had been held without trial for more than nine years. The hearing adjourned after seven hours of legal arguments, mainly about the admissibility of witnesses. Like most of the Khmer Rouge's top figures, Duch lived freely for years and was only arrested in 1999 when a journalist found him working as an aid worker in the jungle. He was formally transferred to the tribunal in July 2007. He has previously expressed regret for his crimes but has said that he was acting under orders from leaders of the 1975-1979 Khmer Rouge regime. Led by "Brother Number One" Pol Pot, the Khmer Rouge rose to power as a tragic spinoff from the US conflict in Vietnam, emptying Cambodia's cities to take society back to a rural "Year Zero". They wiped out nearly a quarter of the population, targeting city dwellers, intellectuals and even people who wore glasses in their bid to root out anyone who threatened the peasant revolution. The regime was ousted by Vietnamese-backed forces in January 1979. Pol Pot died in 1998. The tribunal has been delayed by legal arguments and bail hearings, and has faced controversy over allegations of political interference by the government over the prosecution of further suspects. The government of Cambodian premier Hun Sen has been accused of trying to protect former Khmer Rouge cadres from justice. Quote
Gaybutton Posted February 18, 2009 Author Posted February 18, 2009 He has previously expressed regret for his crimes but has said that he was acting under orders from leaders of the 1975-1979 Khmer Rouge regime. Welcome to Nuremberg East. While proponents of the death penalty could justifiably say that no case could possibly cry out more for the death penalty, I'm glad that it isn't available for this guy. That's too easy for a crime of this magnitude. I would much rather see him kept for the rest of his life going stir crazy in a small, hot, cell under miserable conditions, knowing that the day he dies is his only way out. To me, that is a much more terrible punishment. He "expressed regret for his crimes"? Good! I wish him a very, very long life to continue his regret. Quote
Guest GaySacGuy Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 He "expressed regret for his crimes"? Good! I wish him a very, very long life to continue his regret. Well GB, is sounds a little brutal..but fair!! I have always said that Life w/o Parole is a much worse punishment than the death penalty. Like you said...your only way out is to die! Quote
Guest lvdkeyes Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Well GB, is sounds a little brutal..but fair!! I have always said that Life w/o Parole is a much worse punishment than the death penalty. Like you said...your only way out is to die! How bad life without parole is depends on where a person is imprisoned. In a US prison it's not so bad. TV's in cells, access to computers, library etc. In the US we spend (waste) a lot of money on prisons for those who commit heinous crimes. Quote
Gaybutton Posted February 18, 2009 Author Posted February 18, 2009 How bad life without parole is depends on where a person is imprisoned. Somehow I have a feeling that a Cambodian prison isn't very much like US prisons. In a way I almost hope he gets television. If Cambodian TV is comparable to the programs I see on Thai TV, that too is worse than the death penalty . . . Quote
Guest lvdkeyes Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Thai TV, that too is worse than the death penalty . . . I don't think the majority of Thais will agree with you. Quote
Guest fountainhall Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Anyone who has been to Phnom Penh will have toured the infamous Tuol Sleng prison where this murderer was in charge. Formerly a school, on the wall of the prison visitors can still see a chilling notice with the 10 instructions to prisoners. Here are three - "When getting lashes or electrification you must not cry at all." "If you don't follow the above rules, you shall get many lashes of electric wire." "If you disobey any point of my regulations, you shall get either ten lashes or five shocks of electric discharge." But most of the tortures were not on any list. When I heard about them and saw the cells, I was almost physically sick. On the tour, my Cambodian guide and I cried. What the article does not point out is that of the 15,000 or so inmates who were routinely tortured to near death under his 'care', only 7 escaped the subsequent Killing Fields and came out alive. Quote
Guest laurence Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 How bad life without parole is depends on where a person is imprisoned. In a US prison it's not so bad. TV's in cells, access to computers, library etc. In the US we spend (waste) a lot of money on prisons for those who commit heinous crimes. In the case of Duch, death would be fitting for him. But life without parole in the US is not a bowl of roses. Many people are imprisoned, in effect, for life for crimes that do not warrant such punishment. It is worse than death if there is no hope for freedom. Quote
Guest MonkeySee Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 If Cambodian TV is comparable to the programs I see on Thai TV, that too is worse than the death penalty . . . Thai and Cambodian TV may be torture to you, but I think it would be a luxury to a native. This guy deserves nothing but staring at four walls for the rest of his life. Quote
Guest fountainhall Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Thirty years have passed since the Khmer Rouge reign of terror and I expect some readers have little or only hazy recollections. Anyone interested in the background should read "Sideshow: Kissinger, Nixon and the Destruction of Cambodia" by William Shawcross. This relates how Nixon and Kissinger authorised the 8-year bombing campaign of a country they wanted to control during the Vietnam War without either the knowledge or approval of Congress. Historians worldwide now generally agree that their actions not only created the conditions for the rise of the Khmer Rouge but drove an enraged population into the regime's arms - and, in 1.5 million cases, to their deaths. For a more personal account of what was happening after the Khmer Rouge closed the borders to the outside world, you can do no better than read the personal story of one Frenchman caught up in the agony - "The Gate" by Francois Bizot. Here are two reviews: from The Times of London: "A tour de force . . . It is a book as terrible, as gripping and as revealing as anything to have come from the time when this once beautiful country descended into hell." and from the Sunday Times: "A memorably astonishing book . . .Bizot tries to come to terms with the self-destruction of a people he loved and has long tried to understand . . .I have never read a book like this. It is deeply moving and ineffably terrible; every intelligent person who has a care about this world and its people should read it." The man who interrogated and imprisoned Bizot during those Khmer Rouge Years? Comrade Duch who is now on trial. Quote
Guest shebavon Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 You listen to Sean Insannity, or Bill Orally, they would have you believe that the killing fields happened because we pulled out of Vietnam, and not having anything to do with our policies. Now here is a case where the words "Nazi-like" and "Genocide" are appropriate to use. And to think that this happened in a Buddhist country. I guess it just goes to show you that cruelty can be a human trait. Quote
Guest fountainhall Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 You listen to Sean Insannity, or Bill Orally, they would have you believe that the killing fields happened because we pulled out of Vietnam, and not having anything to do with our policies History is easy to manipulate when you are pushing an agenda. After the US spent some time funneling arms into Cambodia to prop up the government, Nixon's secret bombing campaign started in March 1969. The media eventually smelled a rat. The New York Times first reported on May 9, 1969, that "knowledgeable sources" within the administration had "disclosed for the first time that B-52s . . . attacked Vietnamese Communist base camps and supply depots in Cambodia." As more and more details of the sustained bombing campaign in Cambodia leaked out, there was a public outcry in the US. Cambodia played a big part in the Kent State University demonstrations that resulted in the massacre of four students by the National Guard on May 4, 1970. The Cambodian bombing had been going on for about 4 years before the last US troops pulled out of Vietnam in March 1973. By then the Khmer Rouge was well in the ascendancy. It was only a matter of time before the country's US-backed government collapsed.. Quote
Gaybutton Posted February 18, 2009 Author Posted February 18, 2009 Thai and Cambodian TV may be torture to you, but I think it would be a luxury to a native. I was kidding. Of course he would love to have TV. Have you ever seen "Papillon"? I think he deserves the same kind of solitary confinement. And I'm not kidding about that! Quote
Guest shebavon Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 The Cambodian bombing had been going on for about 4 years before the last US troops pulled out of Vietnam in March 1973. By then the Khmer Rouge was well in the ascendancy. It was only a matter of time before the country's US-backed government collapsed.. Coincidentally, History Channel today had a show about Nixon's horrific legacy to the people of Cambodia, the unexploded bombs which continue to dismember the population. Anther gift which keeps on giving. Quote
Guest shebavon Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 I was kidding. Of course he would love to have TV. Have you ever seen "Papillon"? I think he deserves the same kind of solitary confinement. And I'm not kidding about that! Frankly, his type make me think we should consider bringing back Crucifixion, or some other slow horrendous death. Quote
KhorTose Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Frankly, his type make me think we should consider bringing back Crucifixion, or some other slow horrendous death. A very big part of me agrees completely with you. I saw that jail and I was sickened. I would like to beat that slimy bastard to death with my bare hands. I think this is a normal reaction of any human with any degree of compassion. Then I think of Bishop Tutu and his reconciliation trails. As much as I would like to see "an eye for an eye", Bishop Tutu did what was best for his country and his Christian conscience. Part of me hates the bastards getting off, but another part understands that revenge is not always the best path for a country or for an individual to take. However, it is hard to let go---healthy but hard. Quote
Guest fountainhall Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 History Channel today had a show about Nixon's horrific legacy to the people of Cambodia, the unexploded bombs which continue to dismember the population Not often realised is the legacy the US left in Laos where unexploded bombs regularly kill and maim civilians today, most of them children. Lest we forget, as USA Today said in 2003, "From 1964 through 1973, the United States flew 580,000 bombing runs over Laos — one every 9 minutes for 10 years. More than 2 million tons of ordnance was unloaded on the countryside, double the amount dropped on Nazi Germany in World War II . . . on a per-capita basis, Laos remains the most heavily bombed nation in the history of warfare." Why? To try and bomb Vietnamese supply lines. The same article points out that 80 million cluster bomblets were dropped on Laos. A staggering 10% - 30% did not explode. That left between 8 and 24 million scattered around the countryside. Most of Laos' 18 provinces remain contaminated. Quote
Guest shebavon Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Thanks for the reminder. Now Barack is adding 17000 troops to Afghanistan, a land where we trained the Taliban to fight the Russkies. They trek back and forth to Waziristan in Pakistan. Will history repeat itself? Has anyone ever won a war in Afghanistan since Alexander? Quote
Gaybutton Posted February 18, 2009 Author Posted February 18, 2009 Frankly, his type make me think we should consider bringing back Crucifixion, or some other slow horrendous death. Black Hole of Calcutta, and step on it! Quote
Gaybutton Posted February 18, 2009 Author Posted February 18, 2009 revenge is not always the best path for a country or for an individual to take. However, it is hard to let go---healthy but hard. I never did agree with that. I don't see anything wrong with revenge. In my opinion, all this stuff about revenge being something negative and unhealthy is only a cliché. I don't always agree with a cliché. In this case I definitely disagree. Unhealthy? Negative? Tell that to the victims. Tell that to their families. I'd love for each one of them to get just 5 minutes alone with this guy. I believe if revenge is truly unhealthy, then let it be unhealthy for him. Quote
Guest MonkeySee Posted February 19, 2009 Posted February 19, 2009 Now Barack is adding 17000 troops to Afghanistan, a land where we trained the Taliban to fight the Russkies. They trek back and forth to Waziristan in Pakistan. Will history repeat itself? Has anyone ever won a war in Afghanistan since Alexander? My thoughts exactly. I think we are making a big mistake by increasing the scale of the war in Afghanistan. We did not learn from the French in Vietnam and I don't think we will learn from the Russians in Afghanistan. Quote
Guest fountainhall Posted February 19, 2009 Posted February 19, 2009 another part understands that revenge is not always the best path for a country or for an individual to take I've thought a lot about KhorTose's comment. In principle, I almost agree. I thought what happened with the Truth and Reconciliation commission in South Africa was amazing. Yet, if those thinking of committing atrocities know in advance that they will - or even that there is a chance they will - get off with a mea culpa before a commission and then everything in the garden will be lovely again, what sort of discouragement is that? Quote
Gaybutton Posted February 19, 2009 Author Posted February 19, 2009 what sort of discouragement is that? The Nazi elite tried the "It's not my fault. I was only obeying orders" defense in the Nuremberg trials. Worked great, didn't it? Tell that to Goering, Ribbentrop, Kaltenbrunner, Rosenberg, et al. Of course, if you have no defense that can justify both torturing and murdering people, most of whom had done absolutely nothing wrong, then the "I had no choice" defense is the last straw to try grasping. Quote
Guest MonkeySee Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 sort of discouragement is that? George Bush has gotten away with murder. Thousands of innocent Iraqis killed because GW thought the bad guys had "weapons of mass destruction." What a joke! When that did not work he switched to the "war on terror." The Iraqis had little to do with the 9/11 tragedy. Quote
Guest GaySacGuy Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 The Iraqis had little to do with the 9/11 tragedy. How about nothing to do with 911!!! If we based it on 911, Saudi Arabia would no longer exist!! This was a war to fatten the pockets of big business and contractors and oil people....All of Cheney ad Bushs buddies. Cheney knew there were no weapons of mass destruction. That is why he made up false intelligence and did everything he could...including breaking the law...to discredit real intelligence!! Quote
