A Proper Return :)

[CurtisD]

This trip was planned in outline by Bangkok Guy and then refined by me as I encountered the reality of logistics in Thailand. All air routes pass through Bangkok, you can’t simply fly direct city-to-city, and this consumes a lot of time. It was not possible to fit Bangkok Guy’s top three destinations into ten days and we settled on two, Chang Mai and Koh Lipe, with an overnight transit stop in Hat Yai because the flight arrivals and boat departures do not match up if your starting point is Chang Mai and you have to travel via Bangkok.

No Covid issues this time. Bangkok Guy is double-vaccinated, Moderna as the second shot, bright eyed and looking forward to our trip. He has been helping his sister sell durian ‘It good business’, except his sister likes durian and eats some of the stock, which amuses him.

As I am with Bangkok Guy and not having daily bar-scene adventures I have experimented with the format of this report. Rather than write the report chronologically, after an initial touristic overview I have structured it by themes.

As usual we visited the jazz bars. I still can’t find a calendar of who is playing where, which is frustrating. We tried the Crimson Room for the first time and found Norwood Young and his band were the act. He was excellent, great voice and quite a showman. Bangkok Guy loved it, so we returned after our travels but found a Thai singer who was good but not Norwood Young.

Bamboo Bar was excellent as always. As in January Peter the resident pianist (I could listen to him all night) was backing Thai vocalists who were good but did not have quite the lungs and range of the vocalists in January. This was a disappointment to Bangkok Guy who particularly likes vocals that you could dance to if there was a dance floor. Bangkok Guy informs me that if you can’t dance to it, it “old people jazz” (which he still likes).

Our first night in Chang Mai Bangkok Guy was excited to go to the Sunday night market. He loves markets. It was large and fun. In addition to the shopping there was a lot of activity at Wat Chedi Luang. We bought flowers to offer and, assisted by a monk, Bangkok Guy hauled a water container up a rope pully to tip over the ruined chedi.

We returned to our hotel very late and Bangkok Guy discovered the night security guard was a guide (Bangkok Guy chats to everybody), so the next day he took us on a tour of the temples, a great restaurant in a garden by a reservoir, and shopping. The low tourist numbers were painfully obvious in the shops-geared-for-tourists to which he took us. Large complexes in which we were the only customers.

Koh Lipe I highly recommend, but we will not be returning as Bangkok Guy did not like the hour long boat ride. The route is a two hour ride in a van from Hat Yai to Pak Barra on a good road, followed by an hour in a speed boat to Koh Lipe. Picture a gutted cabin cruiser with one large open space holding seating for around 30-40 people and four massive outboard motors.

On the way there the sea had a slight swell which resulted in some exciting bumps even with an experienced driver, which in turn lead to a few cases of mild seasickness, one of whom was Bangkok Guy.

Despite a room right next to the water with a view-to-die-for, excellent food, great snorkeling and it generally being a great place, Bangkok Guy did not forgive the seasickness. On the return trip the sea was like glass and it was wonderful. Still no forgiveness. I would return in a heartbeat and will try to bribe Bangkok Guy with the Idyllic Resort which we found just down the beach from our resort. “We can move here?” he asked hopefully. The attraction was air-conditioning versus fans.

The return flight to Bangkok was an hour late due to weather. Approaching Bangkok the turbulence was uncomfortable – Bangkok Guy gripped my arm like a drowning sailor while I played at being calm and stoic. The cause of the turbulence became clear after the pilot made a U-turn into the landing approach. We had skirted a sizeable thunder storm with lightening the likes of which I have never before seen – massive, thick, bright white bolts that made me visualize pools of molten glass wherever they struck.

After washing off the day’s travel at the hotel we headed out to Silom for Issan food. I got the feeling that Bangkok Guy is not often in this part of Bangkok anymore, several times he was not so sure finding his way around, and this was one of these occasions. No Issan food where he expected it. We ended up at Fork and Cork, which we liked.

Since we were in the area, why not visit Jupiter? I wanted to see a show and Bangkok Guy was happy to go along as he likes the Jupiter guys more than I do. He likes buff. About ten guys in great shape. Good acts. A very thin crowd. Four or five young women front row at one end of the stage, two small mixed groups along the right-side front row, three guys on the left side and Bangkok Guy and I seated a little further back.

However Bangkok Guy did not get into playing the ‘Which guy you want?’ game and his body language became stiff. When I suggested we go he almost leapt from his seat. I have not taken him to a bar since the very early days of our relationship, wanting to spare him any possible loss of face at being perceived as a ‘boy du jour’ and possible discomfort if I too-visibly found a guy attractive.

Although none of the guys really appealed to me, the longer we stayed in the bar the more uncomfortable he was, particularly as I was trying to figure out if I thought #86 was attractive or not (conclusion, yes) causing my attention to be too focused.

Bangkok Guy and I are firm fans of Baan Suriyasai and that did not change this trip. We tried the Blue Elephant and while I would recommend it there were many people, so not a private dining experience, and it is a fraction Euro-centric. The wait staff automatically focused on me, while in Baan Suriyasai they focus on Bangkok Guy.

The limopattaya were great as usual, taking us to-and-from the airport and also around Bangkok in the evenings between restaurants and jazz bars.

For the first time ever on my departure Bangkok Guy decided he would keep the hotel room and check out after breakfast the next morning. I left him happily snuggled under the duvet.   

[jason1975]

Excellent writing, @CurtisD and happy for you and Bangkok Guy!

[Boy69]

@CurtisD execllent report I love it!

[bkkmfj2648]

Hello @CurtisD  great trip report.

Would you be willing to post some pictures of your trip to Koh Lipe ?

In your previous trip reports you posted some amazing pictures.

Many thanks,

Martin

[CurtisD]

@jason1975 @Boy69   Thank you!  Glad you are enjoying it.

[CurtisD]

42 minutes ago, bkkmfj2648 said:

Hello @CurtisD  great trip report.

Would you be willing to post some pictures of your trip to Koh Lipe ?

In your previous trip reports you posted some amazing pictures.

Many thanks,

Martin

I would love to take credit for the pics you mention, but the guy with the great pics is @daydreamer  My pics tend to be limited to Bangkok Guy, whose privacy I respect.  However, here are a couple of Koh Lipe from which he somehow escaped the frame.

[CurtisD]

Couture

Both Bangkok Guy and I like clothes and take care how we dress. In other words, we are both gay. We both prefer a classic simple look, although I have a penchant for a splash of color while Bangkok Guy is strictly muted colors. This trip it was a multicolored belt which triggered him “Why you like?” in a tone suggesting that insanity hovered nearby.

As I loathe shopping, have preferences for the cut of my clothes and enjoy choosing fabric, I like to use tailors and assemble what I want. As Bangkok Guy loves shopping and a bargain, he prefers pret-a-porter in markets. 

The culture shock of taking him to my tailor was entertaining.

The genesis of this adventure came over dinner at Baan Suriyasai during my last trip when Bangkok Guy made a quiet comment in passing ‘Look like waiter’. He was wearing a new white Chinese collar shirt from Icon Siam and black pants, which did bare a family resemblance to the waiter’s outfit. However I think the motivation for the remark was less his outfit and more mine, as I was resplendent in fresh-from-the-tailor shirt and trousers.

The objective was to get him an outfit he could wear to restaurants and the Bamboo Bar and not look like the waiter – blue blazer with gilt buttons, white trousers and tailored shirts.

Bangkok Guy was curious but hesitant – ‘Not know how’ (to use a tailor). I explained that the objective was to get exactly the cut, cloth and fit he wanted, and found patterns online for collars, cuffs, trousers and jackets to give him an idea of the range of choices, assuring him the tailor could show him.

The whole exercise (for the pair of us, as I had a suit made) took four fittings, two before we left on our travels and two the day we returned.

The first source of amusement came from watching Bangkok Guy instruct the tailor. At the first fitting he was looking for guidance but after that, once it came to discussing the fit, he was in charge. The tailor is a pro, but I couldn’t help wondering how he felt about taking instructions from a young durian trader from Issan. It was all amicable and Bangkok Guy got the fit he wanted – generally looser than the Italian cut favored by the tailor.

After the third fitting I complemented him on how well he was managing the fittings to get what he wanted. A slight smile “I watch you”.

The second source of amusement was the conflict between Bangkok Guy’s love of economy and his love of the way he looked and felt in the tailored clothes.

He looked fantastic and heading out to dinner for the first time in the blazer with a red-and-navy silk pocket square, white trousers and white shirt with blue-lined collar and placket, he was walking on air. Bangkok Guy feels powerless (a topic for another time), a feeling the clothes temporarily removed.

He didn’t know what the clothes cost, but he knew it was too much, especially as he can only use them a couple of times a year when I visit. They are not practical everyday wear for selling durian.

He raised his concern about costs over lunch after the first fitting. “Tailor too expensive”. “Being Falang is expensive” – which response was met by a completely unconvinced look. As with alcohol consumption, he understands that the problem is not a generic Falang issue, but is specific to his particular Falang. After all, I am neither unintelligent nor too old to learn more economical ways from him. He knows that with patience and humor, the old dog can be retrained.

He showed me the website of a tailor offering a complete outfit for 2000bt. “Probably not good cloth, this tailor better”. He graciously changed the topic but did not give up and continued to suggest that for much less money he could get what he needed at a market.

The only argument I had that made any headway was “But then we not same-same”. He likes the idea of being the same, not because of the clothes, but because of the implication that I want us to be closer. After that the tone of the conversation changed. The tailor is still too expensive and markets a much better option, but for a few pieces of clothing that enable us to be “same-same” at restaurants and jazz bars, it is acceptable that we use the tailor.

And, now he has had time to think about it, he would like a pair of trousers-with-braces like mine, as long as the braces are in muted colors. He thinks the braces are cute. I told him I will bring him a pair of braces next trip, so a further visit to the tailor is on the agenda. I am not going to tell him the cost of Trafalgar woven silk braces, as (i) he would call it off and (ii) my sanity, already in question, would look distinctly shaky.

 

 

[vinapu]

3 hours ago, CurtisD said:

 

Both Bangkok Guy and I like clothes and take care how we dress. In other words, we are both gay.

I'm not a gay, what a relief. But I still like guys

[CurtisD]

How to be Gay

Bangkok Guy is very boy-next-door and not obviously gay. He is very nice, polite, considerate and takes responsibility seriously. The fact that he dresses well, takes care of his skin and checks himself out in handy reflective surfaces might or might not be slight tells.

He does not do anything to overtly identify as gay – no rainbow stripes anywhere. I got him an Apple watch this trip. My suggestion to get him a watch as he has wanted one for some time, his suggestion that it be an Apple. My watch ideas were too “for boss” which in this instance was less about the power structure and more about age. The Apple store was displaying a range of Pride watches, but these did not hold his attention. He got a dark case with a dark metallic mesh strap – classic and clean.

The major tell occurs when we are in any form of transport together. He automatically holds my hand, sleeps on my shoulder, or puts his head in my lap. He has done this since we first met. In his mind it is totally the done thing and normal. So far there have been no negative reactions and a few positive ones, for example a stewardess smiling as he slept on my shoulder.

We had to overnight in Hat Yai on the way to Koh Lipe and I wondered in the South, more Muslim and conservative, if he would modify his behavior. He has been to Hat Yai in the past to see relatives and stay at a temple, so he knew the lay of the land. “No pork, eat chicken or fish”.

No modification at all, and also no consequences.

We discussed plans for international travel and I pointed out that in some countries gay people are not popular and he could not use me as a human pillow. “Not go” was the instant and definite response, which surprised me given how keen he is to travel. I tested his resolve. The Serengeti is in Tanzania and Kenya, neither of which is gay friendly. In January after I showed him pictures he was very keen to go. “Tanzania and Kenya, you cannot use me as pillow”. “Not go”. To me, accustomed to modifying my behavior as necessary, this level of resolve is quite an eye opener.

We went over the list of places to which Thais can travel without visas to see if any might be ‘human pillow friendly’ and came up with a revised list of destinations. However, even in this list I have difficulty imagining ‘human pillow’ being greeted with the same nonchalance as it is in Thailand.

Bangkok Guy is keen to travel, but as himself. I hope it is possible.

[khaolakguy]

Enjoying your commentary, thanks

[CurtisD]

Reciprocity

Bangkok Guy is good for me. This is not just my opinion but also that of friends.

Beyond being generally happy that I know him, he is slowly changing some of my habits and mind sets for the better. I no longer bolt down my food but put my cutlery down and pause between mouthfuls. I no longer feel compelled to eat and drink until the table is clear and the bottle empty. Following Bangkok Guy’s example, I now stop when I feel full without guilt about the leftovers. I am still organized by the clock independently of the day’s agenda – if it is x o’clock I must be up, or have accomplished y – but a little less so. Bangkok Guy is organized by the day’s agenda, not the clock, and if the agenda is empty he feels no compulsion to fill it but rather relaxes into the empty space. A little of this is rubbing off on me. A little.

I told Bangkok Guy this and it made him happy as it was reciprocal “You very good for me”, in a tone that sounded like a major statement.

I know his life is not easy. He is responsible for his mother and younger sister – he has pawned the ring-that-was-a-dragon to pay his sister’s school fees. Still, he is usually upbeat and cheerful so it surprised me (alarmed rather) when relaxing on the deck at Koh Lipe after a very enjoyable day snorkeling he said his head was so full of ‘pobpems’ that there was room for no more, illustrating this by filling a glass to the top with water “No more room”.

Right then it did not seem the time to press the issue. However back in Bangkok over dinner at Baan Suriyasai, the first outing in his tailored clothes, I enquired. “No worry, it nothing, I exaggerate”. “No, it is something. I want to understand”. A pause while he searches for words. “What my future? I not know. Have no power”. The issue is that without my support, if I drop dead or drop him, he would be in trouble, back to hand-to-mouth. He has several business ideas, but lacks the capital to initiate any of them. He has no power to change his situation.

Well, he has a little power, he has my goodwill.

I reassure him that our discussion in January still holds true. As I get new business, I will help him with the capital he needs. There is no guarantee on timing, but it will happen. He has proof that if I say something I follow through as this year, as travel opened up and business picked up, I increased his allowance.

He is a realist and knows the future is uncertain, but there is something here to hope for so, as a generally optimistic person, he is happy.

The importance of helping him get to a point where he has some independence (‘power’ in his words) is very clear. And as cost cutting is just as good and possibly more permanent than increasing income, I am going to try to adopt his frugal mindset to free up some cash. (That crashing sound is a friend falling off his chair laughing, ye of little faith!).

[CurtisD]

Communication

My name is being called urgently with the cute mangling of a consonant that tells me it is Bangkok Guy who wants me. We are due to go snorkeling in ten minutes and ensconced in reception with a coffee, a sea view and my laptop I have lost track of time. Bangkok Guy knows that I sometimes loose track of time when I work and he is rounding me up. Just as I nudge him along when we have an early start and get the inevitable “mpfh, few minute” as he smiles and snuggles back down (I know from experience he will be more-or-less on time).  

As I stand it feels like a knife has gone through my intestines. I have been eating higher-spiced local Thai food for over a week now and my stomach has begun to protest. Eating Thai food with Bangkok Guy is like eating with a highly vigilant food taster. It is a cannon of his belief that Falang cannot eat spicy food and he needs to protect me from it, steering me away from particularly spicy dishes and weeding out particularly hot peppers. My stomach is telling me he has a point, and I reluctantly tell him to go snorkeling without me.

A day’s break from each other turns out to be a good thing. He has a great time exploring the waters off several islands with the instructor and a Thai couple, a welcome rest from having to think in English. I spend the day in a hammock reading, enjoying doing precisely nothing. We decide to have dinner on the beach at Idyllic, an up-market treat of fresh-caught fish accompanied by a very good singer/guitarist. Bangkok Guy shares the instructor’s pics of the expedition, great shots of him with many colorful fish.

And then we sit and stare at each other because we have run not out of conversation, but out of words. It’s not the first time, and after this many days together it is becoming obvious. Because we observe each other we understand each other well in simple things and we are in tune with each other’s mood. However, if we are going to keep moving forward we have to improve our ability to communicate.

It is not the first time that better communication would make things smoother. A few nights earlier Bangkok Guy decided he was going to sleep cuddling a pillow, not me. We both enjoy cuddling, so this is surprising. “Why cuddle pillow not me?” “Pillow small” ?? “I take pillow” and we wrestled for control of the pillow until we are laughing so hard tears are rolling down our cheeks.

Bangkok Guy likes these contests of strength which usually occur over the remote or preventing him from tickling me and I always win, eventually, but not this time as while I have the two arms with which to pin him down I lack the third arm required to seize the pillow and the contest ends with him grinning at me over the pillow, reveling in his triumph.

None of which explains why he is cuddling the pillow. Feeling a little hurt I decide to sleep on it. With Bangkok Guy if I do not understand something time usually reveals what is going on. I wake in the morning way over on my side of the bed with the pillow hard against my back and Bangkok Guy asleep on the pillow. I turn over and find I am cuddling the pillow and am pleasantly in contact with Bangkok Guy. “Pillow small” now makes sense.

It is very comfortable and, as the light of understanding breaks I see it solves two problems that have been causing us to sleep apart and not sleep well. The hotels in both Bangkok and Chang Mai had covered duvets, not a separate duvet and sheet. Bangkok Guy likes sleeping under the duvet but after some time cuddled up close under a duvet I get too hot and, without the option of separating the duvet from the sheet, we end up sleeping apart. To compound matters, this trip I am snoring more because I have let some of the Covid pounds I got rid of before the January trip slip back on. I could do with loosing ten pounds. The snoring is not the issue as much as the dribbling from sleeping open-mouthed.

The pillow is comfortable, Bangkok Guy and I are in physical contact, I am not over-heating and any dribble is on the pillow. Bangkok Guy has discovered an effective heat and dribble barrier. Life would be smoother if he could communicate that to me.

We agree that by my next trip I have to master basic Thai and Bangkok Guy needs to improve his English.

If anyone has any recommendations for how to learn Thai, please let me know.

[jason1975]

1 hour ago, CurtisD said:

And then we sit and stare at each other because we have run not out of conversation, but out of words. It’s not the first time, and after this many days together it is becoming obvious. Because we observe each other we understand each other well in simple things and we are in tune with each other’s mood.

🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰

[vaughn]

16 hours ago, CurtisD said:

If anyone has any recommendations for how to learn Thai, please let me know.

Firstly, great report. It's a very heartwarming read, I also really enjoy your observations about your relationship and difference in perspective with Bangkok Guy.

I found myself wanting to learn some basic Thai to help my communication as well, although I am only 3 months in I have found the option that is working best for me is an app called Ling. I had also tried Youtube and looked for other apps with Thai as an option, but Ling is so far the only one I have found that has helped me gain a few new words and phrases for my vocabulary.

There is a Thai massage boy I see in my hometown back in falangland, I'm considering asking if he wants to earn a little extra and spend some time with me to practice when I have a bit more confidence in my tones and pronunciation.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, vaughn said:

I found myself wanting to learn some basic Thai to help my communication as well, although I am only 3 months in I have found the option that is working best for me is an app called Ling. I had also tried Youtube and looked for other apps with Thai as an option, but Ling is so far the only one I have found that has helped me gain a few new words and phrases for my vocabulary.

Thank you for the tip.   I will try Ling.

I've been looking for podcasts and have used ThaiPod101.  However, it's far from optimized, with a lot of time spent on not actually learning Thai within each one. 

Further suggestions are welcome.   

 

 

2 hours ago, vaughn said:

There is a Thai massage boy I see in my hometown back in falangland, I'm considering asking if he wants to earn a little extra and spend some time with me to practice when I have a bit more confidence in my tones and pronunciation.

You're lucky to have such a service.

A few years ago, I used to visit one who lives with a boyfriend in a town to the North of London.   He was very good at the massage part, probably the best I've ever known.   Then he returned to Thailand & that was the end of it.     I was hoping to see him on one of the phone apps when I last went to Chiang Mai, but no such luck.

Also, a Filipino student.  His massage technique wasn't up to much, but he was good at other aspects.   Obviously he eventually finished his studies and left.

 

I'm struggling to find good replacements for those two.

There is one I sometimes see now, but a quite a bit older, mainly professional, operating in a room at the back of a hairdressing salon, with restricted hours.

[CurtisD]

16 hours ago, vaughn said:

is an app called Ling

Thanks very much, I will look this up.

[CurtisD]

Making Things Click

I can make a list of many things, but however long the list it would not explain why Bangkok Guy and I click as we do. Something just works, and to my surprise and delight keeps on working.

Since I can’t explain it, I will give the last word to Bangkok Guy.

Lounging Thai-style on the deck after lunch at Koh Lipe a self-assured bird struts around hunting crumbs. Bangkok Guy sees me watching it. “Chicken”. “No, I think it is Mynah bird”. “Is chicken”. On my iphone I look up Mynah bird and show Bangkok Guy the picture. A pause, and with a serious “this is fact face” given the lie by a slight smile at the edges of the mouth and eyes “In Thailand is chicken”.

[vaughn]

16 hours ago, z909 said:

You're lucky to have such a service.

A few years ago, I used to visit one who lives with a boyfriend in a town to the North of London.   He was very good at the massage part, probably the best I've ever known.   Then he returned to Thailand & that was the end of it.     I was hoping to see him on one of the phone apps when I last went to Chiang Mai, but no such luck.

Also, a Filipino student.  His massage technique wasn't up to much, but he was good at other aspects.   Obviously he eventually finished his studies and left.

I'm struggling to find good replacements for those two.

There is one I sometimes see now, but a quite a bit older, mainly professional, operating in a room at the back of a hairdressing salon, with restricted hours.

I consider myself very spoilt with the options I have outside of Thailand. My city had a lot of international university students from Asia before covid, and although most returned home, I eagerly await the return of what was once very fertile hunting grounds 😄

[vaughn]

1 hour ago, CurtisD said:

Making Things Click

I can make a list of many things, but however long the list it would not explain why Bangkok Guy and I click as we do. Something just works, and to my surprise and delight keeps on working.

Since I can’t explain it, I will give the last word to Bangkok Guy.

Lounging Thai-style on the deck after lunch at Koh Lipe a self-assured bird struts around hunting crumbs. Bangkok Guy sees me watching it. “Chicken”. “No, I think it is Mynah bird”. “Is chicken”. On my iphone I look up Mynah bird and show Bangkok Guy the picture. A pause, and with a serious “this is fact face” given the lie by a slight smile at the edges of the mouth and eyes “In Thailand is chicken”.

It's times like these I find that I just have to smile. yes, chicken.