Should I visit Pattaya?

[12is12]

Thx (although these r all tourists, not only the sex-oriented).

Given that apparently most east Asians r AWOL or AWOCL, farangs should be the majority now; no.....   ?

 

[Guest]

As mentioned, much of East Asia still has travel restrictions, particularly China, but also, others.    So 16.6 million ==>near zero.

So it's fairly obvious that Asean & Europe is where the volume could be from in the short term.    All they need to do is remove the silly restrictions and make people welcome !

I'm not sure how much of the Asean inbound traffic is big spenders from Singapore, Malaysia and perhaps the middle class from other countries   ?    

On the other hand, how much is people just crossing the land border from Cambodia, Myanmar etc for a day, or money boys declaring themselves as tourists ? 

 

[Mateo_37]

I am coming to Pattaya for few days on May 21st. What hotels would you recommend now? Thanks for advice.

[New Londoner]

15 hours ago, z909 said:

......it's fairly obvious that Asean and Europe is where the volume could be from in the short term.

Does this mean that the sort of entertainment that drew the punters decades ago could be back in fashion? Go go bars with twinks actually dancing?  Khatoey lip sync shows to be exceptions rather than boringly ubiquitous? An end to the deafening music which like Macbeth, "murders sleep" in the early mornings?

If only......but I fear that my time has passed!

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Mateo_37 said:

I am coming to Pattaya for few days on May 21st. What hotels would you recommend now? Thanks for advice.

A lot depends on where you want to stay, what your budget is and what your priorities are for the room.    Even which side of a hotel you stay on can make a difference, with sometimes a trade of for road noise v a view etc. 

Example hotels:

Near Jomtien Bars -Zing -reasonable price.    The Agate higher price.

South Pattaya:   Mosaik   -good value & convenient location for a few decent coffee shops;     Is well located for Sunee Plaza & Boyztown, but at the moment Jomtien is where the best bar scene is to be found.

Near Boyztown: Classrooms.   Warning, this is above The Classrooms (girlie) bar and A Bomb gay bar, but I've always found the higher floors to be quiet and comfortable. 

I wouldn't do anything daft like staying in North Pattaya.

 

 

[vinapu]

10 hours ago, z909 said:

 

Near Boyztown: Classrooms.   Warning, this is above The Classrooms (girlie) bar and A Bomb gay bar, but I've always found the higher floors to be quiet and comfortable. 

 

I stay many times in Classrooms ( on your recommendation by the way and thank you ) and never had problem with bar noise. I like their discreet entry to the side of bar.

In Boyztown itself I prefer Copa to Ambiance if only because maze of corridors in the later is kind of scary.

In Jomtien complex The Venue is good but there it may be problem with bar noise.

[PeterRS]

14 hours ago, New Londoner said:

Does this mean that the sort of entertainment that drew the punters decades ago could be back in fashion? Go go bars with twinks actually dancing?  Khatoey lip sync shows to be exceptions rather than boringly ubiquitous? An end to the deafening music which like Macbeth, "murders sleep" in the early mornings?

If only......but I fear that my time has passed!

I fear both your time and mine have passed. I still think some enterprising entrepreneur with lots of cash could open up the sort of bar that was common in Bangkok 3 and more decades ago - like Barbiery. I am certain it would be hugely popular. But . . . my read is it will never happen again.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, PeterRS said:

I fear both your time and mine have passed. I still think some enterprising entrepreneur with lots of cash could open up the sort of bar that was common in Bangkok 3 and more decades ago - like Barbiery. I am certain it would be hugely popular. But . . . my read is it will never happen again.

This could make a perfect hobby business for someone who has more money than they ever need.    Some people buy football clubs and throw money at player's salaries etc.  Then, unless they have a top end club, they usually lose money in the process, but probably enjoy the ride.     The same could apply to running a gogo bar.  

 

As for the separate topic of Pattaya hotels, bear in mind that they are highly unlikely to be fully booked at present.  So anyone unsure could probably just book for a couple of nights & then decide what to do after that.

[reader]

7 hours ago, PeterRS said:

I fear both your time and mine have passed. I still think some enterprising entrepreneur with lots of cash could open up the sort of bar that was common in Bangkok 3 and more decades ago - like Barbiery. I am certain it would be hugely popular. But . . . my read is it will never happen again.

1 hour ago, z909 said:

This could make a perfect hobby business for someone who has more money than they ever need.    Some people buy football clubs and throw money at player's salaries etc.  Then, unless they have a top end club, they usually lose money in the process, but probably enjoy the ride.     The same could apply to running a gogo bar. 

I think that Lucky Boys on Patpong 2 is one of the few clubs with the combination of capacity and location that could field such a venue. Before it closed in March of 2020, it was not unusual to find upwards of 40-50 guys of all descriptions on its stage, billed as the largest in the Silom-Surawong rectangle. The show itself was supported by excellent lighting and sound systems, and unobstructed views for all seats.

But only the arrival of more visitors (particularly from China, Singapore and Japan), and more boys from ASEAN neighbors, could again make it a viable business.

[Guest]

I don't think large scale is essential.   It's what they put on the stage that counts.

Euro Boys and Vassa in Pattaya were small bars & good fun at times, although something slightly larger would be ideal.

Something like Classic Boys Bangkok must have had something like 30 or more boys, split into 2 groups who rotated.   Yet the operational part of the bar was still of a modest size. 

 

Also, whilst a good sound system is better than a bad one, having the volume set correctly is the most important factor.    It should still be possible to have a conversation without raising one's voice.

[reader]

54 minutes ago, z909 said:

It's what they put on the stage that counts.

Could not agree more. And Lucky Boys put it all on display: twink, guy-next-door, muscle, and representative of all southeast Asia--and sometimes beyond.  It was one-stop shopping for all comers.

[New Londoner]

The best bars had smiling, friendly guys, often teasing each other, interacting with the punters and having a good time. And dancing, some well, some not. But all trying.

Then, a decade or more ago,  we left the Age of the Dancer and entered the Era of Stander. And the Age of the Mobile. To compensate for the lack of joy on the podium, the bars resorted to the Guantamano solution; playing music so loud as to drown not only conversation but thought. And comfort.

The coup de grace, well at least for me, was when some Boyztown bars dispensed with doors and inflicted their noise pollution on the whole d*** soi.

Thus it is that I return to the issue of where to stay, and recommend Jomtien Complex and P's favourite hotel in Thailand- though he's stayed in more expensive , more luxurious ones - the Agate. And at present rooms are only 1000 bht pn. 

[macaroni21]

2 hours ago, reader said:

I think that Lucky Boys on Patpong 2 is one of the few clubs with the combination of capacity and location that could field such a venue.

After having visited Thailand's many kinds of gogo bars over the years (decades), I'm of the view that there's a downside to too large a space. Lucky Boys of Patpong 2 (which I understand has not reopened) is one such space I would consider too large. It makes it hard for eye contact and smile contact, and therefore tends to reduce the boys to mere statutes.

This is not to say that (if rent is affordable) a large floor area serves no purpose. I can imagine a smart operator splitting a large area into several, more intimately-sized rooms with a different vibe in each room to suit various tastes. Some customers like drag shows; others like shows with full-on nudity; yet others just want to mingle with boys, talk and tip them with the aim of finding a suitable guy to take out.

But first and foremost, the space must remain a gay male space. Owners must keep women out, in my view. Once they are let in, it's a slippery slope. The dancers (mostly straight) tend to pay attention to them over the gay male customers. Then women's tastes begin to change the flavour of the club (i.e. men in jeans preferred over nudity), and then the girls' hetero boyfriends start to go with them to the club.... and that's the end of the business as far as I am concerned.

I recently read a comment somewhere about a Montreal bar (Stock bar, I think) letting more and more women in. Their gay customers then complained that screaming hordes of women utterly destroyed any gay vibe there used to be. The trouble with Western countries is this madness about non-discrimination and how it may be illegal to bar women from entering (but yet, it is OK to bar men from entering some clubs especially on Ladies Nights). I am all for discrimination in such matters. But it'll be a long thesis for me to explain my thoughts and reasoning, and I will spare you that.

[reader]

45 minutes ago, macaroni21 said:

But first and foremost, the space must remain a gay male space. Owners must keep women out, in my view. Once they are let in, it's a slippery slope. The dancers (mostly straight) tend to pay attention to them over the gay male customers. Then women's tastes begin to change the flavour of the club (i.e. men in jeans preferred over nudity), and then the girls' hetero boyfriends start to go with them to the club.... and that's the end of the business as far as I am concerned.

For some perhaps but folks in our age range are in a distinct minority. We alone cannot support the clubs and if women are willing to pony up the entrance fee, drink minimums and tips, it's no skin off my back.  Those females help keep the clubs open.

I don't feel threatened by the inclusion of women. Most of the guys on stage love the sounds of those screaming hordes. This is not your your granddaddy's world. Get over it.

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, New Londoner said:

The coup de grace, well at least for me, was when some Boyztown bars dispensed with doors and inflicted their noise pollution on the whole d*** soi.

Worse still, they recently have had the show out in the soi, so every damn bar is in earshot of the music.  

One night, it was too loud even when I was stood outside the Penthouse and only when I reached the Dream Boys Soi did it drop to a reasonable level.    It's not always that bad, but the music volume is between slightly too high and a lot too high.    Then they have cabaret shows, which are almost always led by some lady boy.

I've nothing against lady boys and before it closed, customers could go to The Kitten Club for them.   Or, at least that's what I thought they had inside.   However, I don't understand why almost every gay cabaret show has to have lady boys & usually in the lead role.

Incidentally, Stickman is writing about his ideal girly gogo bar.   It seems lady boys also pop up in some of those, which he's not to keen on !    https://www.stickmanbangkok.com/weekly-column/2022/03/the-gogo-bar-wish-list/

 

As some of us seem to be thinking, the ideal gay gogo bar ought to have music at a modest volume and be for boys only, both on stage and in the audience.      

 

1 hour ago, macaroni21 said:

 I am all for discrimination in such matters. But it'll be a long thesis for me to explain my thoughts and reasoning, and I will spare you that.

 A quick google search shows me that some Bangkok night clubs charge men more than women.  Which is discrimination.

So why not reverse this for our ideal gay gogo bar ?     Free entry for men and 2000 baht for women.

[macaroni21]

4 minutes ago, z909 said:

Free entry for men and 2000 baht for women.

Good idea.

[reader]

50 minutes ago, macaroni21 said:

I am all for discrimination in such matters.

Wasn't all that long ago that gays were openly discriminated against and in some situations remain so today. Do you realize how ridiculous it sounds for a gay man to be espousing discrimination on any grounds?

[macaroni21]

Alright, you're compelling me to explain my reasoning. Speaking only of "discrimination" is too blunt and superficial a concept. A better way to think about the issue is to frame it with reference to (a) power (b) volume and (c) safe spaces. The concept of safe spaces is to permit small minorities or oppressed communities to have their own spaces which they can call their own and feel safe in. To enable such spaces, a degree of discrimination needs to be applied to keep the more powerful or more numerous out, otherwise the space becomes swamped or dominated by the powerful or the more populous. There is therefore an argument for women-only safe spaces, keeping men out. There is an argument for teenage girls safe spaces, keeping horny teenage boys and older men out. There is an argument for Muslim-only safe spaces (in heavily non-Muslim countries), keeping non-Muslims out (especially proselytising Christians). An argument for keeping anti-abortion protestors a minimum distance (several hundred metres) away from abortion clinics....

In the scale of things, hetero women are far more numerous than gay men, and therefore there is an argument for gay-male spaces that keep out hetero women, otherwise the tone of the space will change to cater to hetero women. The same argument can be made to keep out hetero men, but in practise the non-availability of boobs, tits and pussies would mean they have no interest in swamping the gay bar anyway. However, once boobs, tits and pussies get into a gay bar (in the form of women customers), you can bet the hetero men will follow. Thus the "slippery slope" I referred to above.

[reader]

Using that shaky logic, one could easily find a way to exclude black men or Latino men, or Japanese or Jews.

As someone recently said, it's a slippery slope and you seem all to ready to make the descent.

"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

                                                                                             Martin Niemöller, 1946

 

[Guest]

I've never seen females in gay saunas.     So all male spaces exist and are possible.

Even publiclly owned swimming pools have ladies only sessions, so discrimination is possible there.

Numerous religions reserve certain roles for males only.    

Sports are split by gender, even for areas where there is no obvious reason why ladies should be at a disadvantage, such as snooker or darts.

There is discriminatory pricing where men pay more to get into certain clubs.

There is discriminatory pricing where young men get into certain gay saunas cheaper (I'm all for it).

There is discriminatory pricing by age on rail tickets.

Public toilets are split by gender, so men may get their willies out without women present & vice versa.  The same logic might be applied to raunchy on stage shows.

So I see no reason why a few privately owned gay bars should not be male only, or have discriminatory pricing, as we see in numerous other places in Thailand & around the world.   

[reader]

[gerefan]

If women want to see guys on stage and maybe take them off why don’t they set up of bars for that purpose?

Why dont we see straight Gogo bars for women customers with guys on the stage?

This would avoid the necessity for women to go to gay bars to find their men and leave the gay bars for Gays.

[reader]

45 minutes ago, gerefan said:

If women want to see guys on stage and maybe take them off why don’t they set up of bars for that purpose?

Already have them. You can find women on any given night at Moonlight, Jupiter, Dreamboys and--yes--even Freshboys.

In many of the bars, the number of straight guys on stage outnumbers the gay boys. Part of the attraction for many gay men is offing a straight guy. Some straight women have fantasies about offing a gay one. It's a big, complicated world out there and we're all part of it.

45 minutes ago, gerefan said:

Why dont we see straight Gogo bars for women customers with guys on the stage?

 You never heard of Chippendale?

45 minutes ago, gerefan said:

This would avoid the necessity for women to go to gay bars to find their men and leave the gay bars for Gays.

Fair enough but you're limiting yourself to Sunee Plaza and some other Pattaya bars, I'd imagine. Bangkok is a different animal and will increasingly need women patrons to help make rent.

The concept of "gay" bars is involving to include anyone who's attracted to the guys on stage, regardless of their orientation or gender. And if that's what it takes to keep them in business, I'm all for it.

[Guest]

I'd just like to explore this concept that the gay community should oppose all forms of discrimination a little further.    Reader & several others have followed this line & I understand why they think like that.   

Firstly, does anyone here also oppose the kind of discrimination that creates space for people to get naked, or near naked with only their own gender ?

e.g. Public baths, gay saunas (male only) and even swimming pools with female only sessions, particularly in countries where women are expected to dress very modestly & wearing a swimsuit with men present would not be acceptable.

If anyone does see that as unacceptable discrimination, please step forward & explain. 

 

Next on the scale, we have the kind of raunchy gogo bar, where the boys on stage might where white underwear so thin that it barely conceals what's inside.    And might get their cocks out later on.  

Now if a few gay bars create a male only space for such activities, why would this be different to the other places reserved for one gender to get their clothes off ?    

Is there any reason why the lads on stage should be expected to expose themselves to ladies ?    Including, for example, strictly gay staff ?      I see no harm at all in creating another single gender space, where clothes might come off without the other gender present.

Now I'm not going to suggest they make Soi 4 male only.

However, I see no moral reason why a few more raunchy gogo bars cannot be male for male only.    

[reader]

You're attempting to justify discrimination in the bars because you'd be more comfortable if women were not present. Well, that is a slippery slope.

What if the women are perfectly comfortable? What if the guys on stage are perfectly comfortable with women in the audience? (I don't ever recall hearing complaints from the performers).

Now granted, some individuals may wish to partake in "hands-on" manipulation of performers. But why shouldn't that opportunity be open to both genders if that is the custom in that particular venue?

And if I follow your proposal, you seem to be suggesting that staff segregate themselves by declaring that they are gay only, straight only or bisexual, with separate areas for each. That, to me, is a bit too clinical.

You worry about lads on stage exposing themselves to ladies. They do that on a regular bases at all the bars in Silom and beyond now. Does anyone recall the guys complaining or refusing to perform?

I again call attention to the fact that most of the guys who fill the stages in Bangkok, and at least some of the Pattaya bars, are straight and quite comfortable doing their stuff before both sexes. Let's not discriminate against them or anyone else.