Insurance companies exaggerating cover requirements

[reader]

From Pattaya Mail

By Barry Kenyon

There have been several complaints to Pattaya Mail that some local and foreign-based insurance companies have been guilty of misinformation when advising both tourists and expats. What follows is a summary of the requirements of both the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Thai Immigration.

The rules are very different for those foreigners entering the country as opposed to those seeking an extension of stay once here. Applicants for entry, mostly Test and Go and Sandbox aspirants, are required to obtain a minimum US$50,000 cover to cover the period of their visa. This can be solely Covid-related or general medical insurance or a combination of both. The obvious exceptions are work permit holders who come under the health ministry’s social insurance scheme without separate cover.

But most extensions of stay obtained at Thai immigration offices do not require an insurance certificate. Nor currently are they required to show proof of vaccination, contrary to some internet reports. As examples, holders of 30 days visa exempt stamps or 60 day tourist visas do not need insurance to claim their extra month. Nor do eligible foreigners applying for the two months “Covid” extension, although this well-used facility is on life support already as the March deadline looms.

The obvious exception to all of the above is the contentious O/A retirement visa (awarded by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs) and the subsequent annual renewal (given by Immigration). These both currently require a separate general health insurance of at least 400,000 baht inpatient and 40,000 baht outpatient, to be upgraded to US$100,000 or 3 million baht from October 1, 2022. There will also be a new facility for O/A visa holders to use self-insurance if they are refused by insurance companies, although the fine print of do-it-alone is yet to be announced.

But the O/A visa rules do not apply to other expats such as retirees with an initial O visa, holders of marriage or family extensions of stay or Elite card holders. Some commercial advertisements on the internet seem to be deliberately blurring the distinction between retirees holding different kinds of permission in order to maximize insurers’ income. However, it is true that holders of the little-used Special Tourist Visa (which offers a stay of up to 9 months) and the OX ten year visa (introduced in 2016 but complex and bureaucratic) do require health insurance for both entry and extension.

The immigration bureau hotline confirmed that there are currently no plans to extend medical insurance beyond the parameters listed. However, the goal posts can certainly change and there is discretion vested in immigration bureau and individual officers when it comes to handling a particular case. Equally, generalizations by commercial income generators such as “all retirees need insurance” or “you need insurance to stay in Thailand” are speculative baloney.

https://www.pattayamail.com/latestnews/news/insurance-companies-exaggerating-cover-requirements-for-thailand-388716

[abidismaili]

Does anyone know where I can get insurance against quarentaine? I understands the regular health insurance doesnt cover that. It only covers when you get actually sick.

Buit if you have to quarentine because of a positive covid test - even when totally feeling normal - the quarentaine costs are not covered because you are not sick. But this can becomes expensive: 10.000 baht a day in a hospital because that is where they want you to quarentaine. And it can take 10 days.

So is there insurance for these costs? If so where?

[vaughn]

@abidismaili The 2 main providers I have found with coverage specifically for the Thailand travel market are below, but the terms are coverage for medical costs. If you are admitted to hospital even if assymptomatic i believe you should be able to claim that, but if you are ordered to quarantine in a hotel (hospitel) then they would only cover the medical expenses like PPE and doctor checkups and scans at most.

Make sure you read the full policy statements, from my reading the Luma policy provides better coverage. AXA is very explicit about only paying out for medical neccessity and inpatient care. I have not found any policy that will cover all costs of hospitel for assymptomatic positive cases, so essentially we are expected to pay that out of pocket.

https://www.lumahealth.com/travel-insurance/covid-insurance/covid-insurance-faq/

https://www.axa.co.th/faq-sawasdee-thailand-inbound

 

[daydreamer]

If checking into a hospitel (hotel in partnership with a hospital), you will pay two bills, one bill for the hotel room, and a separate bill tor the hospital to cover the nursing fees. 

Hospitels are required to have on site hospital personnel stationed at the hospitel.  They perform tasks such as recording your temperature and blood oxygen levels daily, and maintaining medical records for each person in quarantine.  In most cases, the hospital bill will be larger than the hotel bill if you are staying in a hospitel. 

I suspect an insurance company would have no choice as far as paying the hospital bill.  As to the hotel portion, ???

[daydreamer]

I had a similar question regarding an insurance policy I was considering purchasing for my recent trip.  Before buying, I emailed the insurance company and asked if they would pay for a hotel quarantine.  They answered me within about six hours. 

The answer in my case was "if a health authority or government orders you into quarantine, we will pay the cost of your stay regardless of whether it is a hospital or hotel".  You may want to ask before purchasing a policy, as there are many different companies, and most of them sell different levels of coverage.

[Guest]

They need to stop the idiotic quarantine rules, rather than debate the insurance policies.

Currently, the way to deal with it is to minimize the risk of testing positive upon arrival, then avoid getting tested during the holiday.   

[abidismaili]

1 hour ago, z909 said:

They need to stop the idiotic quarantine rules, rather than debate the insurance policies.

Currently, the way to deal with it is to minimize the risk of testing positive upon arrival, then avoid getting tested during the holiday.   

How to avoid testing during the holiday? Day 5 is a mandatory test. And there still is the risk your hotel partners with a shady hospital that fakes positive tests so it can earn on you.

[abidismaili]

1 hour ago, daydreamer said:

I had a similar question regarding an insurance policy I was considering purchasing for my recent trip.  Before buying, I emailed the insurance company and asked if they would pay for a hotel quarantine.  They answered me within about six hours. 

The answer in my case was "if a health authority or government orders you into quarantine, we will pay the cost of your stay regardless of whether it is a hospital or hotel".  You may want to ask before purchasing a policy, as there are many different companies, and most of them sell different levels of coverage.

What is the name of the insurance company you used?

[Londoner]

Thaiger.com has some advice on this and recommends  two or three local (Bangkok)providers. My concern was that some policies have a seventy-five year age limit....however, Thaiger found a couple that don't have an age limit.

I'm ultra-careful and so my intention is to use my own UK travel insurance but to back it -up with a local company that specifically mentions quarantine and is "Covid-Pass friendly."

 

[reader]

Last time I checked, SquareMouth Insurance offers policies from a variety of insurers with an age limit of 99. The policies and prices are easy to compare.

I recall they had one for 30 days for $100,000 "primary" coverage . The premium was $83. As z909 reminds us, you need to carefully read the description and limitations of policy limitations.

https://www.squaremouth.com/covid-19

 

[abidismaili]

2 hours ago, reader said:

Last time I checked, SquareMouth Insurance offers policies from a variety of insurers with an age limit of 99. The policies and prices are easy to compare.

I recall they had one for 30 days for $100,000 "primary" coverage . The premium was $83. As z909 reminds us, you need to carefully read the description and limitations of policy limitations.

https://www.squaremouth.com/covid-19

 

I tried reading it for a few of them, but it is not clear for me. Nowhere I read: "If you test positive for covid, but are not ill, but you have to quarentaine in the hospital your hotel partners with, then we pay for these hospital costs also, even when you dont feel sick at all"

Good luck finding this in any of the policies. I don't see it. If they cover it then why not state it as clearly as I do above?

[Londoner]

To be blunt, the loss of days or weeks in some sort of medical imprisonment is more of a worry than the money. 

[reader]

53 minutes ago, abidismaili said:

Nowhere I read: "If you test positive for covid, but are not ill, but you have to quarentaine in the hospital your hotel partners with, then we pay for these hospital costs also, even when you dont feel sick at all"

Good luck finding this in any of the policies. I don't see it. If they cover it then why not state it as clearly as I do above?

You're not going to find country-specific detail in policies that cover many different countries. You can ask agent by phone for clarification, but the protocols followed in Thailand can be interpreted differently from hospital to hospital and hotel to hotel. I would anticipate that if I tested positive and was asymptomatic that I may well end up eating the extra expense myself. 

You can try to minimize the uncertainties but you can't protect against all of them. It's an inherently cumbersome process. At some point you have to leave the outcome to fate.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Londoner said:

To be blunt, the loss of days or weeks in some sort of medical imprisonment is more of a worry than the money. 

That's one reason to book a long trip.   Spending 10 days in quarantine is not quite as bad if you have another 80 days afterwards.

[daydreamer]

19 hours ago, abidismaili said:

What is the name of the insurance company you used?

Seven Corners Inc.

[daydreamer]

9 hours ago, abidismaili said:

I tried reading it for a few of them, but it is not clear for me. Nowhere I read: "If you test positive for covid, but are not ill, but you have to quarentaine in the hospital your hotel partners with, then we pay for these hospital costs also, even when you dont feel sick at all"

Good luck finding this in any of the policies. I don't see it. If they cover it then why not state it as clearly as I do above?

My suggestion to you is to narrow your choices to just one or two policies.  Then email your question to them.  That is better than phoning the insurer, as you will have a written record as proof.

I believe your symptoms are irrelevant to some insurance companies.  As I replied above, they told me "if a health authority or government orders you into quarantine, we will pay the cost of your stay regardless of whether it is a hospital or hotel".  Based upon that, they did not mention symptoms, but only mandated quarantine as the qualifying factor for them to pay out on the contract. 

If it were me, I would phrase the question as to mandated quarantine, and not be focused on symptoms.  For tourists in Thailand that test positive, quarantine somewhere is mandatory. 

If you are in good health, with no or with minimal covid symptoms, you will most likely be sent to a hospitel.  If you have underlying health issues, and/or significant covid symptoms, you will most likely be admitted to a hospital as an inpatient.  Your temperature and blood oxygen levels will be monitored daily, and if they warrant, you may be moved from a hospitel to a hospital room.  Upon testing positive, a nurse or doctor will interview you as to your health history, and then assess the level of your covid symptoms to determine where you will be quarantined, it will not be your choice of hospitel or hospital.

That is how quarantine currently works in Thailand for overseas visitors to the country.  The Thai health authority doesn't care whether you are asymptomatic, or have obvious symptoms.  You will be ordered into quarantine in either case. 

The determining factor is do you have a high enough viral count to trigger a positive test result.  A positive test result means quarantine in one of the two locations outlined above.  Mandated quarantine is not based on symptoms, but on your test result.  Again, this is the way it works for tourists.  For Thais, some are allowed to isolate at home, based on their situation.  As a tourist, you will not be given that option.

But you should verify the terms yourself before purchasing any policy, as things can and do change to suit the present covid situation.  My insurance policy and airline tickets were purchased in November, before the Omicron variant was even in the news.

 

[Lotusleaf]

A list of some insurance companies can be found here. 

https://asq.in.th/thailand-covid-insurance

It indicates those policies that cover you for asymptomatic covid. 

NOTE: This is a company that provides a service for acquiring Thailand Pass for a service fee.  I assume you can purchase the policies directly without using the service.

[reader]

It's becoming more apparent by the day that some of the more reliable information on this topic is being provided board members who actually worked their way through the process, or are in the process of doing so. This article about authorities attempting to get insurers interested in offering 10 days of coverage for those who test positive illustrates the confusion that exits between ministries, hotels and hospitals.

From Bangkok Post

Insurers avoid travellers after heavy Covid losses

Insurance companies have become reluctant to offer Covid-19 coverage to foreign tourists as the industry was beset by a liquidity crunch after issuing many policies and experiencing a high number of cases the past year.

Tourists remain interested in the country, as new registrations for the Test & Go programme reached 119,807 as of Feb 8.

Siripakorn Cheawsamoot, deputy governor for marketing communications at the Tourism Authority of Thailand, said following discussions with the Office of the Insurance Commission (OIC) over optional Covid-19 insurance for international tourists, only a few companies expressed an interest in joining the programme. Only 4% of inbound tourists have tested positive for Covid-19, most of which have been mild cases.

Many insurance companies are facing losses from Covid-19 claims from local cases and are unsure about offering policies to foreign tourists, particularly in terms of reimbursement based on possible scenarios, he said.

The Public Health Ministry is dealing with insufficient or expensive hospital beds in major provinces by allowing each provincial communicable disease committee to grant permission to hotel operators to establish isolation rooms on their properties to host asymptomatic guests.

Mr Siripakorn said the 10-day hotel isolation price starts from 20,000 baht, including three meals a day and telemedicine from a partner hospital.

"While waiting for the OIC to conclude an insurance package, we have to increase affordable hotel isolation as an option for infected tourists so they don't have to pay more than 100,000 baht for treatment, as happened before," he said.

Marisa Sukosol Nunbhakdi, president of the Thai Hotels Association, said hotels in many provinces have not yet applied for isolation rooms as they are unsure about the procedures. Hotels in Bangkok are still waiting to hear from the Department of Health Service Support regarding rules, she said.

"We were told there is an act that grants permission to hotels to serve as isolation centres, but according to provincial authorities, the partner hospital has to take charge of this process, not hotels. At present, few hospitals are aware of this rule," said Mrs Marisa.

She said the obstacles of Covid-19 insurance and hotel isolation are weighing on the domestic situation, with local cases rising sharply to 13,182 on Wednesday. After Test & Go resumed on Feb 1, the flow of tourists has not been as strong as in November, when the scheme was first introduced.

"The fifth-day compulsory Covid test is hampering tourism," Mrs Marisa said. "Locals may hesitate to book trips if infections spike."

https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/2261703/insurers-avoid-travellers-after-heavy-covid-losses

[daydreamer]

16 hours ago, Lotusleaf said:

A list of some insurance companies can be found here. 

https://asq.in.th/thailand-covid-insurance

 

Thanks for the link.  There is some useful info there, but some of it is not correct.  The website says it was updated on Feb 08, 2022, but it has this line:

What happens if I test positive? - If you test positive you will have to go to an AHQ hospital, and will be there for 14 days.

That may have been the case at one time, but it is not true today, nor was it true in January 2022 either.  Quarantine is currently 10 days, and there is now a chance of being sent to either a hospitel, OR a hospital, depending on your circumstance.

 

[gerefan]

Quarantine being reduced by a third wouldn’t help their revenue would it?

No doubt it will be amended...in due course.

[Londoner]

Yes....apparently, the latest figures for incoming tourists are disappointing, particularly when compared to the numbers when Test & Go was previously introduced.

 The above comments, reveal a great deal  of anxiety. My March trip is off and my June one is in doubt.  Others must be as concerned as I am.

[Guest]

Why should insurers offer insurance for this crazy scheme ?

1 The quarantine scheme has a fundamental conflict of interest with test results processing carried out by the same people who collect the incarceration revenue.   In one case, we hear of a Russian insurer insisting on independent COVID tests, which contradicted those from the hospital.  Twice.

So not only do insurers need to predict the failure rate, but they also need to figure out if the rate of corrupt test results will increase. (I suspect that's not a widespread problem at present)

 

2 Eventually the government may be forced to modify the rules.  There are countries in Europe and Latin America with no testing or quarantine on entry.  Sooner or later, we will see the same in Asia.   So is it economic to set up insurance products which may soon be redundant ?

 

In the meantime, why doesn't the Thai government fund quarantine for asymptomatic tourists, therefore leaving travel insurance to cover genuine illness ?  Which is what it's designed for.

This has some advantages.  For a start, they will be less inclined to insist on unnecessary medical checks.

Also, it ought to be self funding.  With costs of (say), 20,000 as specified above, that's 200 Baht per tourist if there's a 1% failure rate.   This will quickly be recovered by increased tourist revenues and increased taxes.   This would be far cheaper than some of the recent subsidies for domestic tourism.

[reader]

From Richardbarrow.com

The Covid-19 task force approved lower fees for COVID-19 tests that would take effect on March 1. An antigen test kit that people will buy will be priced at 55 baht, down from 80 baht. The fee for an RT-PCR test by service units will be cut to 900 baht from 1,200 baht.

[abidismaili]

9 hours ago, Londoner said:

Yes....apparently, the latest figures for incoming tourists are disappointing, particularly when compared to the numbers when Test & Go was previously introduced.

 The above comments, reveal a great deal  of anxiety. My March trip is off and my June one is in doubt.  Others must be as concerned as I am.

I worry mainly about that hospitals fake the positive test. I wont get covid. I will lock myself up at home in the two weeks before depature. So I am pretty sure when I test positive the hospital tricked me.

 

(If you get it on the day of departure it can't be detected Day 1. The virus needs time)

[abidismaili]

9 hours ago, Londoner said:

Yes....apparently, the latest figures for incoming tourists are disappointing, particularly when compared to the numbers when Test & Go was previously introduced.

 The above comments, reveal a great deal  of anxiety. My March trip is off and my June one is in doubt.  Others must be as concerned as I am.

Why is your March trip off? Despite my worry I still plan to go in March