Dying is the last thing you do

[reader]

I'm sure expats have made provisions for this. However, this article by a Thai lawyer explores the legal realities of a foreigner dying in Thailand.

From Pattaya Mail

By Jessataporn "Chang" Sriboo

Q. What can lawyers do?

All countries have their own rules and regulations about notifications to police and embassies, corpse disposal and the follow-up in court if the deceased had any assets in Thailand. A Thai lawyer experienced in these matters can make the whole process less distressing for next of kin or significant third parties.

Q. What are the procedures if a foreigner dies here?

Typically, the police will quickly be informed. If the deceased died in hospital and had a recent record of illness or disease, an autopsy is not necessary. In all other cases, an autopsy will be required and this can delay the funeral. The death certificate is issued by the local authority and relevant embassy approval is required before cremation or burial is possible. At this stage, relatives usually have a lot of questions about detail – such as where the autopsy occurs and the specific role of the embassy – which a lawyer can help to make a smoother process. Also any hospital or autopsy bills must be paid before progress can be made.

Q. How are the dead disposed of in Thailand?

Nearly always by cremation which is otherwise known as hygienic disposal. Embassies usually have a list of morticians who can organize the details and the service at temples. Prices vary a great deal according to the location and elaborateness, starting at around 20,000 baht with no upper limit. In general, funerals in rural areas are cheaper than those in urban centers. In temples, the body is kept in a “chedi” or special area and there is no specific time frame for cremation. The next of kin or executor can obtain the ashes in an urn for lodging in Thailand (often in a temple or at sea) or for return to the native land.

Q. Is burial possible in Thailand?

Yes, but it’s very expensive, difficult and can take a long time. An alternative is to transport the body back to the home country by air, although it should be noted that many airlines – since Covid – do not offer this service. Also, the body has to be specially treated by embalmers and returned in a zinc-lined coffin. In my experience, well over 90 percent of deaths in Thailand are prepared for cremation here. The exceptions are mostly where the insurance policy specifically allows for international corpse transportation.

Q. What happens if nobody can be found to take responsibility?

Yes, sometimes this can happen when a Thai or a foreigner dies and no family member or friend can be found. Sometimes embassies may pay for disposal, but many do not. In some areas, the local authorities may arrange for a pauper’s cremation at a local temple. In other areas, there is a paupers’ burial ground where corpses are lodged and collectively burned every few years to make way for new arrivals. In the Pattaya area, as an example, the Sawangboriboon Foundation will usually be asked to assist where a body is uncollected and unwanted by anyone. We should stress that a pauper’s disposal will be an action with minimal ceremony.

Q. What about wills and courts?

If the deceased had any assets (cash or property) in Thailand, a probate order from a Thai court is necessary before they can be transferred. However, if a bank account is held in joint names, then the surviving partner can avoid that bureaucracy. The judge in a probate case will expect to see a properly drawn-up will in the Thai language and will normally require the presence of the executor or next of kin. The court may ask about the family tree, but the process is normally automatic. The executor will then receive written authorization which allows the transfer of assets to beneficiaries.

Q. Do things sometimes go wrong?

Indeed they do. Sometimes there is no will or the original cannot be found. In these cases, the process may be more complicated and, where possible, we ask the next of kin to accompany us to a hearing in the Thai court. Another problem area is where the deceased died unnaturally, say a murder, which can result in all sorts of questions depending on the specific circumstances. Sometimes, the relatives may not be satisfied with the results of the autopsy and can fund a second one either in Thailand or in the home country.

Q. Do I need two wills?

It depends. Where assets are held in Thailand and abroad, we usually recommend that. Care has to be taken that the two wills do not contradict each other – I have known that to happen! Some foreign probate courts can require a lot of detail. For example, if a British man or woman holds assets in the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands, these jurisdictions are not part of the United Kingdom. The detailed rules are very different in, say, Liverpool and Douglas. On estate matters, you really do need professional legal input. Preferably well before you meet your Maker.

https://www.pattayamail.com/business/pattaya-legal-corner-dying-is-the-last-thing-you-do-384945

[vinapu]

45 minutes ago, reader said:

I'm sure expats have made provisions for this.

I'm not so sure. From my work experience and I was and still am part time close to those matters surprisingly many people think they will live forever not leaving any will nor even simple instruction what to do or list of assets and potential liabilities  they may have. That leaves families squabbling and  quarrelling  , at times even over trivial  amounts of money or minuscule assets as ego comes into play as who should be in charge.

In my opinion wills should be mandatory for everybody over , say 40, otherwise estate should go to the state. Only exception I'd make in case of children under 18. That should sober people up and have their testaments done well before their time. 

[Lucky]

@readerHappy New Year to you too.

[caeron]

 

Wills are mandatory. That's what probate laws are. If you don't decide it's decided for you.

[vinapu]

1 hour ago, caeron said:

 

Wills are mandatory. That's what probate laws are. If you don't decide it's decided for you.

Perhaps in some jurisdictions. Probate is not an universal concept but quarrels over uncle 's estate are

[TMax]

I wonder if there is something in Thailand like the Public Trustee we have here in Australia (probably not would be my guess)? Public Trustees here do just about everything, draw up wills and act as executor, they are used by some that don't have anyone to act as executor of the will (like me, being the youngest family member, the others believe they'll go before me). The one thing some don't like about Public Trustees is that they can be expensive but if it comes out of the estate after a person is gone it really doesn't matter to the deceased (as I tell them).

[caeron]

7 hours ago, vinapu said:

Perhaps in some jurisdictions. Probate is not an universal concept but quarrels over uncle 's estate are

Now you've intrigued me. What nations don't have any probate laws?

[PeterRS]

Reader's post is very informative and for many of us probably quite timely. The fact is that a will written in Thai is essential. Without that the Court will decide who your nearest relative is and he/she will end up with your assets.

I had a will made on line by a solicitor's office in Phuket about 15 years ago. I thought it was virtually foolproof. Not so. A few months ago I consulted a solicitor in Bangkok who had drawn up the wills for two friends. He pointed out one clause in my earlier will which had been superseded by legislation. So at considerable expense I had a totally new will drawn up that makes my wishes 100% clear and 100% in accordance with Thai law.

One issue which I was asked to clarify and include in the will is what happens if the beneficiary/beneficiaries die prior to my death. So a second beneficiary had to be included just in the unlikely event that happens.

Copies of that will are lodged not just with the solicitor but also with the beneficiaries who also have the contact details of the solicitor's office. I believe the cost has been more than worth it for the peace of mind it provides.

I have a second will in the UK and have ensured that neither conflicts with the other.

[reader]

On 1/2/2022 at 11:30 PM, PeterRS said:

One issue which I was asked to clarify and include in the will is what happens if the beneficiary/beneficiaries die prior to my death. So a second beneficiary had to be included just in the unlikely event that happens.

Copies of that will are lodged not just with the solicitor but also with the beneficiaries who also have the contact details of the solicitor's office. I believe the cost has been more than worth it for the peace of mind it provides.

I have a second will in the UK and have ensured that neither conflicts with the other.

Peter points out crucial points to anyone considering making a foreign national a beneficiary. Aside from ensuring that multiple wills (or trusts) don’t conflict, awareness of the rules and regulations in your home country that affect transfer of assets to international beneficiaries is essential.

If you are leaving assets you have in Thailand to a Thai citizen, the transaction should be fairly straight forward if your will has been properly drawn up. But if your assets are in your home country and you want them transferred upon your death to a Thai or other foreign beneficiary, the pertinent regulations of both countries come into play.

The ramifications can be significant, particularly considering applicable tax rules of both nations.

For assets coming out of the United States, for example, the rules differ from country to country. One size does not fit all.

If your will and/or trust is drawn up by the average U.S. lawyer, don’t expect he or she is aware of the very complex rules and regulations concerning foreign beneficiaries. You really need the services of an attorney who has experience and expertise in these matters.

[kokopelli 2]

In addition to including contingent  beneficiaries, as Peter noted above, it is important to keep your Will updated .  A friend died in Thailand  whose  Will was about 10 years old and his situation had changed.  He had left two of his condos to two Thais but after ten years he had two newer "friends" and even wrote a draft Will but never executed it. Also  he did not include a "catch all" clause to cover the remainder of his Estate which had increased since his Will was first written.  A real mess!

[unicorn]

On 1/2/2022 at 5:00 AM, vinapu said:

... That should sober people up and have their testaments done well before their time...

People who don't have wills usually don't think their deaths are possible. And/or they don't care about their potential beneficiaries much. 🙄

[tm_nyc]

Another complication, in the US at any rate, is the beneficiaries of retirement accounts like IRA's.  These accounts will usually have you name a beneficiary & a contingent beneficiary.  Ideally, the beneficiaries named on a particular account will be the same as what is stated in a person's will.  If not, the beneficiary named on the account supersedes what is stated in the will.  Another legal complication to worry about!

[vinapu]

2 hours ago, tm_nyc said:

Another complication, in the US at any rate, is the beneficiaries of retirement accounts like IRA's.  These accounts will usually have you name a beneficiary & a contingent beneficiary.  Ideally, the beneficiaries named on a particular account will be the same as what is stated in a person's will.  If not, the beneficiary named on the account supersedes what is stated in the will.  Another legal complication to worry about!

I actually see is as simplifying thing, one less for executor to worry about.

[10tazione]

Question for those who neither have a boyfriend nor children:

Who do you want to be your beneficiary? Friends? Nephew/Niece? Charitable organization? Do you try to spend as much as possible before you die so nothing is left? Interested in your thoughts!

[unicorn]

Well, a good deal is going to my partner. No children. I have two nieces, one of whose parents is extremely rich, so no need from me. The other niece's parent is also wealthy, so a fairly token amount to her. As of this time, most of my estate will go to charities, including a scholarship fund for university students who've suffered on account of their sexual orientation or gender identity (i.e. parents kicked them out). 

[vinapu]

2 hours ago, 10tazione said:

 

Who do you want to be your beneficiary? Friends? Nephew/Niece? Charitable organization? Do you try to spend as much as possible before you die so nothing is left? Interested in your thoughts!

sister, she is well off but still my sister.

Spending all so nothing is left is good if one is planning suicide , otherwise not very prudent as we never know how many years we will be bed ridden and looking  / paying to others to change our pampers so disposing ones assets too soon is not wise IMHO. Beneficiaries can wait

[TMax]

Mine will go to my surviving brothers and sisters, now if I'm the last to go then I will have to come up with a plan B but not too sure what that will be yet, might be to nieces and nephews. Different direction in a way, if I was diagnosed with a terminal disease, cancer for instance, I think I would sell off everything and distribute it before the end, that way there would only be minimal things to do after the end. Of course adjustments made along the way as and if things change. 

[reader]

Two frequent question that arise when discussing retirement is how long will my savings last and how much should I be able to withdraw on a regular basis.

I've seen many interactive tools aimed at helping answer those questions. I consider this one among the best.

https://www.fidelity.com/viewpoints/retirement/how-long-will-savings-last

[kokopelli 2]

Can  I Will my debts to someone?  🤔

[vinapu]

1 hour ago, kokopelli 2 said:

Can  I Will my debts to someone?  🤔

man who dies indebted dies disgraced

[a-447]

What I will do with my assets after I die has been something which has preyed on my mind for quite some time now.

I am an only child and have no relatives. I have a rather large circle of friends but they are in no need of any financial support. Everything cent (yen, in my case)  I have earned has been just for me, and my assets now are also all for me.

So, what to do?

I have some "friends" in Thailand who will benefit substantially. However, just how much they will receive is problematic. Do I give them a sum which is life-changing or do I simply set them up in some kind of business venture? The latter is attractive as they are highly intelligent, hard-working guys who could probably make a go of things. But as the pandemic has shown us, nothing is certain and businesses can fail overnight.

I just love to see my friends happy - the smile on their faces when I do something for them is priceless to me. (I get the impression Vinapu feels the same way, reading his trip reports).  So I guess I'll just let them wake up one day and find a nice sum of money in their bank accounts.

The remainder will be donated to charities both here in Australia and S.E. Asia. During my travels I have kitted out a couple of schools in Cambodia with furniture, books, etc but there are many more that need help. I have yet to build a school but given the low cost of construction, that may be an avenue worth looking into.

And needless to say,  I'm doing my best to spend some on myself, too!

I guess the next thing is to look into the legal aspects, but I think (hope) that can wait a while, as I don't intend going anywhere soon.

 

[unicorn]

5 hours ago, a-447 said:

...

The remainder will be donated to charities both here in Australia and S.E. Asia. During my travels I have kitted out a couple of schools in Cambodia with furniture, books, etc but there are many more that need help. I have yet to build a school but given the low cost of construction, that may be an avenue worth looking into.

...

 

I don't know how things are in Australia, but charities in the US are happy to help you navigating donations in ways which will lower your tax burden most efficiently.  The laws are complex in the US, and these people know these laws well. An accountant can help you as well. I know that in the US, for instance, I have to pay heavy taxes if I donate from my retirement accounts before I turn 70. I have donated some from my non-retirement accounts, but hope not to touch my retirement accounts until I turn 70. If you donate to individuals with substantial sums, you know you will be fondly remembered for years to come. If you donate towards building schools, you can ask for buildings to be named after you, so that you will also be fondly remembered long after you're gone.

[a-447]

I've always been wary of charities here owing to unsatisfactory experiences in the past.

I used to donate to a number of charities who would take money out on a monthly basis from a special bank account I had set up. I stopped donating after I discovered over 90% of the money was being eaten up in "expenses"!

I cancelled my donations and completely forgot about it until the guy who helps me with my finances informed me that the money was still being withdrawn. WTF?? 

The situation was finally rectified but not before a whole lot of rigmarole and the threat of legal action.

So I'll need to give my plans a lot more thought.

As for being remembered, that would be nice I guess, but it's not something I would ever ask for.

[reader]

Finding charities that make efficient use of your donation can indeed be a challenge.

The first thing I look for in a prospective charity is its financials. Specifically I want to know what percentage of income goes to "program services" (the higher the better) and how much is eaten up by "fund raising and management" expenses (the less the better). If I can't readily locate this data on the charity's website or independent rating service, I move on.

When looking at management, I like to check out the salaries of the top executives. For example, if a charity is shelling out salaries over $300,00+ to upper management, I might have second thoughts if the same charity is providing less than 80% of total annual income toward program services.

I'm also turned off by organizations that send me unsolicited stuff (i.e., greeting cards, wrapping paper, religious paraphernalia). The only worthwhile item I ever remember receiving was a world map from Doctors Without Borders that displayed the countries where it operates.

One of the oldest--and I believe reliable--rating services in the US is Charity Navigator. It rates charities and provides financial data.

https://www.charitynavigator.org/

I expect that the UK and Australia probably have similar services, although I;'m not familiar with them.

If you're looking for opportunities in Thailand, many exists in the Bangkok and Pattaya. Paying an in-person visit might make an interesting daytime diversion.

 

 

 

[CurtisD]

A few thoughts on wills from my own experience.

*    Minimize the chance of lawyers extracting more than a modest fee by make your will as simple, short and clear as possible. The more you get carried away trying to control every last detail and end up writing “The Soap Opera of My Final Testament”, the greater the opportunity you provide for snafus which the legal sharks will ruthlessly exploit for profit. Refer to Charles Dickens, Jarndyce v Jarndyce.

*    Ensure you have a good executor. This must be kept up-to-date as a good option when you make the will may not be a good option by the time you pass on, and this holds true as much for law firms and trust departments as for individuals.

*     Give copies of the will to the beneficiaries, at least the main ones. This ensures both that copies of the will are easily available and that someone will be on the ball and prod the executors to action.

*    It may help if one of the beneficiaries is a large entity with the ability to easily summon lawyers to ensure that things move efficiently.  

If this advice gives the impression that I have very little faith in the probity of the legal profession when it comes to the execution of testamentary wishes, that impression is correct.

I do not think bequests are the best way to ensure you are remembered.

The park near my home is dotted with decaying sculptures, fountains, horse troughs and dog water bowls erected by individuals seeking remembrance (and failing) and the storage of the art gallery is full of works donated in the fond hope of preserving someone’s memory, now out of fashion and out of sight.

Short of doing something so awesome that it will be remembered down the ages (not much chance for most of us), our best hope is to have people we have helped during our lives, friends, and family in whose hearts a fond memory lingers for a few decades.