Additional proof of income needed to renew one year retirement visa?

[Guest buckeroo2]

I had dinner tonight with someone who told me that Pattaya Immigration has revised their policy for those who renew their one year visa (retirement visa). He informed me that in addition to the proof of income letter from the US Embassy Pattaya Immigration may now require further proof of income in the form of bank statements showing that income or a letter from the entity providing that income verifying said income. I copied the pertinent sections from the Pattaya City Expats Club newsletter below. It says that Pattaya Immigration may ask you to provide this additional proof - I guess you need to have this on hand in case you are the one asked for the additional proof. I am not sure why you still need the original US Embassy proof of income letter if you are going to be asked to verify the income with actual bank statements or a letter from the income issuer. Anyone know anything about this?

 

From Pattaya City Expats Club newsletter - Jan 23 - Jan29, 2009

 

REPORTED CHANGES IN DOCUMENTATION FOR RETIRMENT VISA - We have received a report that Pattaya Immigration has handed out a list of the documents needed when applying for or renewing a retirement visa using income to qualify. It includes the recent revision requiring those using 800,000 Baht in a Thai bank to have it on deposit 60 days prior to initial application and 90 days prior to renewal. It also has some new requirements (proof of retirement income in addition to the Embassy letter) and clarifications (copy of last 3 months bankbook activity and at least 2,000 Baht on deposit). We will try to confirm this information and post a copy of the list on the Club website.

 

From Pattaya City Expats Club newsletter - Jan 30-Feb 5, 2009

 

For those renewing their one year Visa using a pension of more than 65,000 baht per month, Immigration wants copies of your bank passbook pages - and they may ask you for documentation to prove your pension. The documentation can be copies of a bank statement showing the pension income, verification letters from those paying the pensions, etc. This also applies to those applying or renewing using a combination of pension and money in the bank.

[2lz2p]

As a result of the information being reported, the Pattaya City Expats Club (PCEC) invited Barry Kenyon, Honorary British Consul, to their last Sunday's meeting to provide an update on Thai Immigration requirements. The next issue of the Pattaya City Expats Club Newsletter will include this update - it should be available on Friday at Pattaya City Expats Club

 

Barry Kenyon, lately, has been spending a lot of time at the Information counter at Pattaya Immigration Office offering assistance/information -- if you haven't visited Immigration recently, they have moved the Information counter and the "number" machine. They are now located on the left hand side as you enter the doors into Immigration. They also have placed the tables and form bins just outside the front doors. I visited yesterday about 11am and there was a huge crowd -- fortunately, I was only doing my 90 day address reporting (took about 10 minutes with 7 of that waiting). While waiting near the Information Counter, I overheard Barry telling some poor soul that based on their "number," they could probably wouldn't be called until around 2pm

 

 

[Guest lvdkeyes]

I just renewed my retirement visa last Friday and for financial I supplied letter from US Embassy as proof of income. They did not require any further information. Of course, I also gave them copies of my Thai bank book, but this has always been required. The office was extremely busy when I applied, when I picked up my new visa and the next day when I picked up my residence letter to purchase a car.

[2lz2p]

I just renewed my retirement visa last Friday and for financial I supplied letter from US Embassy as proof of income. They did not require any further information. Of course, I also gave them copies of my Thai bank book, but this has always been required. The office was extremely busy when I applied, when I picked up my new visa and the next day when I picked up my residence letter to purchase a car.

 

Barry Kenyon at the Pattaya City Expats Club meeting said that asking for additional documentation to support the Embassy letter is "discretionary" with the Immigration Officer - so, some will be asked while others will not -- no, he didn't know what might trigger them asking. My guess is that one is less likely to be asked when they are very busy. Also - and again, just guessing because who knows what lurks in the minds of our friendly Immigration Officers - if one has a small bank balance and the bank book doesn't show any funds being transferred into the country, that might be a trigger.

 

Also, Barry said that many of the former Immigration staff have been transferred (most to Suvarnabhumi Airport) and they have a lot of new people (coming from Suvarnabhumi) who are in process of learning their new duties -- I did note that the Sgt Major that reviews the initial retirement documentation was still there.

 

[Gaybutton]

asking for additional documentation to support the Embassy letter is "discretionary" with the Immigration Officer

I see that as similar to customs officials deciding whether to pass you through or give you the third degree. There are probably profiles they have been trained to look for.

 

What I don't know, and maybe someone can tell us, is whether they have actually had the authority to ask for further documentation all along, but have simply chosen not to ask for it. I seriously doubt whether it is any secret to the Immigration officers that the USA embassy, at least, gives out proof-of-income statements without anyone having to prove a thing.

 

I don't see anything particularly upsetting or frightening about this at all. First, let's see if we start getting reports from people that they have indeed been asked to provide further documentation and what kind of documentation the Immigration officers want before the usual panic over nothing begins.

_____

 

Steve Randall: "Experts in the field from all over the world have gone over the scrolls with a fine toothed comb and have declared all of it to be genuine."

 

LeBrun: "Anything can be forged."

 

- Irving Wallace, "The Word"

[Guest buckeroo2]

I see that as similar to customs officials deciding whether to pass you through or give you the third degree. There are probably profiles they have been trained to look for.

 

What I don't know, and maybe someone can tell us, is whether they have actually had the authority to ask for further documentation all along, but have simply chosen not to ask for it. I seriously doubt whether it is any secret to the Immigration officers that the USA embassy, at least, gives out proof-of-income statements without anyone having to prove a thing.

 

I don't see anything particularly upsetting or frightening about this at all. First, let's see if we start getting reports from people that they have indeed been asked to provide further documentation and what kind of documentation the Immigration officers want before the usual panic over nothing begins.

_____

 

Steve Randall: "Experts in the field from all over the world have gone over the scrolls with a fine toothed comb and have declared all of it to be genuine."

 

LeBrun: "Anything can be forged."

 

Well, I have to renew my retirement visa in the next few weeks and if they require further documentation I will let you know.

 

- Irving Wallace, "The Word"

 

[Gaybutton]

Here's another thought: If a proof-of-income statement from the embassy is no longer sufficient to prove income, then why require the proof-of-income statement at all anymore? Another one for my "I Don't Get It" list.

 

What do they do, hire someone to sit around and come up with new unnecessary ideas to make life more difficult for farang retirees?

 

Now they can require additional proof if they so choose. But the question is are they asking for additional proof? If you have renewed your retirement visa since this announcement came out or if you are going to renew in the near future, please let us know if they really are asking for additional proof.

[Guest frodo]

I seriously doubt whether it is any secret to the Immigration officers that the USA embassy, at least, gives out proof-of-income statements without anyone having to prove a thing.

This statement by GB is I think the key. I am a Canadian and I have to prove my income to the Canadian Embassy and swear an oath (taped) before being issued with the letter. I would imagine that is true for other nationalities except the USA. Perhaps the extra proof of income, if asked for, will be directed only to US citizens. We shall see - but its anyone's guess with Pattaya Immigration.

[Gaybutton]

Perhaps the extra proof of income, if asked for, will be directed only to US citizens.

It will also be interesting to see if the US embassy ever changes its policy of accepting solely a sworn statement, which is nothing more than simply taking one's word for it. Nevertheless, whether the policy changes or remains the same, my question also remains the same: If Thailand's policy is heading for change such that Immigration will no longer accept an embassy's proof-of-income statement as the actual proof, then why require a proof-of-income statement at all anymore?

 

Personally, I'd rather show Immigration proof than have to go to the embassy once a year and go through the inconvenience, as well as the expense, of obtaining the statement. Not everyone lives close to Bangkok and it can cost many retirees a lot of money each year, which I think would be an unnecessary expense if the proof-of-income statement literally will end up not being worth the paper it's written on.

 

At the moment, Immigration has the option of accepting the proof-of-income statement or requiring more proof. I have no problem with it if it is either-or, but I can't see much logic in requiring both. In my opinion, either accept the embassy's statement or require proof. I wish they would just flip a coin and decide one way or another. Now when applying for the initial visa or applying for a renewal, it's going to be necessary to have the proof with you in case you are asked for it. As it stands now, you really don't have any idea whether you're going to be asked for additional proof or not.

 

The whole thing makes little sense to me in the first place. If Immigration is moving toward a policy change, then the next obvious question is why? For what reason is Immigration suddenly requiring additional proof from people? What problem is causing them to do this?

 

How is the decision made regarding from whom they will ask for additional proof? What do they do, decide based on whether they like someone's looks or not? Is it based on the idea that people may be lying about how much guaranteed monthly income they have? Is it random? Is it simply based on the whim of the Immigration officer?

[Guest shebavon]

I would not worry to much about the US Embassy changing it's sworn affidavit policy, since if one is swearing to a government official that what he says is true, than one would be committing perjury at the very least, which if I can remember is a felonious offense with potentially severe consequences.

 

I think you were on the money when you mused that this would be an additional hurdle which immigration might just pose on occasion. Perhaps too rude farang?

[Guest buckeroo2]

I am American and I will be renewing my retirement visa before I leave in 3 weeks - maybe I will get motivated to do it next week. As the proof of income statement from the US Embassy was all that was required in the past I did not bring additional proof of income with me from the US. I guess I should allow a few weeks time if I need to retrieve proof from the US before I leave. I will let you know what is required by Pattaya Immigration.

And as an aside, I agree that if they want additional proof that means the US Embassy letter is worthless and that step should be eliminated - they should require one or the other - but requiring both makes no sense.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

I am American and I will be renewing my retirement visa before I leave in 3 weeks - maybe I will get motivated to do it next week. As the proof of income statement from the US Embassy was all that was required in the past I did not bring additional proof of income with me from the US. I guess I should allow a few weeks time if I need to retrieve proof from the US before I leave. I will let you know what is required by Pattaay Immigration.

And as an aside, I agree that if they want additional proof that means the US Embassy letter is worthless and that step should be eliminated - they should require one or the other - but requiring both makes no sense.

Read my post #3 from Feb 4.

[Guest buckeroo2]

Read my post #3 from Feb 4.

I am aware of your experience but it seems that the request for additional proof of income will be at the discretion of the immigration official on any particular day. They are saying additional proof may be required without documenting what may trigger the need for additional proof. I am just stating that I will post my experience. I hope it is the same as yours.

[Guest Astrrro]

I am American and I will be renewing my retirement visa before I leave in 3 weeks - maybe I will get motivated to do it next week. As the proof of income statement from the US Embassy was all that was required in the past I did not bring additional proof of income with me from the US. I guess I should allow a few weeks time if I need to retrieve proof from the US before I leave. I will let you know what is required by Pattaya Immigration.

 

I suggest that you download anything available online that shows some income. For example, if you have a brokerage account or money in the bank, print it out. The more stuff you print out the better if they ask for some documentation.

 

I would also suggest that you leave your "Good boys go to heaven, bad boys go to Pattaya T-shirt at home. Dress respectfully, wear a Buddha string around your wrist, and smile.

 

It seems that the immigration officer can exercise discretion so even if what you download doesn't look as official as a mailed statement it "might" be good enough.

 

 

[Guest fountainhall]

Re Proof of income

 

I know I should read the old posts as this has almost certainly been covered. But it's late in the evening . . .! So apologies in advance.

 

Does "income" mean you have a sufficient capital sum (in a bank, in investments etc.) somewhere amounting to around Bt. 800,000 that will be remitted monthly during the 12 months of the visa? Or does it mean you have a pension and/or some other much larger capital sum which will be generating sufficient interest income per month? i.e. are you effectively proving that you have this income for the rest of your days and not just for 12 months?

 

With Obama and others (including recently the Head of the Bank of England) saying of this recession that basically "we ain't seen nothin' yet", I'm assuming that some fixed pensions and many people's capital may become unstuck as the price of stocks and dividends continue to plunge. Which is very worrying.

[Gaybutton]

Does "income" mean you have a sufficient capital sum (in a bank, in investments etc.) somewhere amounting to around Bt. 800,000 that will be remitted monthly during the 12 months of the visa?

What it means is you have to be able to show sufficient evidence that you have an income that averages to (I forget the exact figure) at least about 65,000 baht per month. If you do the math, that works out to just about 800,000 baht per year. Immigration couldn't care less about where the money is coming from other than the requirement that it is coming from a foreign source.

 

I would guess that monthly statements from your Thai bank account plus the letter from the bank, along with a proof-of-income statement from you embassy will probably suffice. I am also guessing, for those who have a Thai bank account, but don't make much use of it, will have to show evidence of your income in some other way, if they ask.

 

What we need to find out is whether they are asking for additional evidence and what sort of evidence is acceptable to Immigration. So far I haven't seen anything to show just what kind of evidence they want.

 

I have a feeling that people are getting themselves all upset over this for nothing. I doubt very much that they're going to ask for additional evidence unless they have reason to suspect that you're lying about your income. I'm going to stick my neck out and guess that very few, if any, of the retirees reading this message board are going to be asked at all. Time will tell.

 

If nobody is able to provide any answers, then next time I'm in the Immigration office I'll see what I can find out. So far, only Lvdkeyes has posted about renewing his visa and, if you haven't noticed, he wasn't asked to provide anything other than the same documents he provides every year.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

Has anyone been asked to provide additional proof or is this just rumor and speculation?

[Guest fountainhall]

I would guess that monthly statements from your Thai bank account plus the letter from the bank, along with a proof-of-income statement from you embassy will probably suffice

 

Thanks as always for the advice GB. I realise now that I did not make myself clear. Too late in the evening . . !

 

My concern is the 'income' one has outside Thailand and which requires an Embassy letter of proof. The US Embassy requires merely a sworn statement. The UK requires actual proof in the form of overseas bank statements, pension sources etc.

 

To avoid going over old ground, basically what I'd like to know is: assuming I have made a mess of financial planning for retirement and have no regular monthly pension income, does 'proof' mean I must have a capital sum sufficiently high so that it generates enough interest/dividends to pay the monthly sum? Or, since the retirement visa is just for 12 months, can the 'income' I have overseas be a capital sum of only the equivalent of Bt. 65,000 per month over 12 months - i.e. around US$23,000?

 

In the former case, with interest rates and dividends plunging towards zero, that sum now has to be vastly higher than it was a year ago. In the latter case, I realise that a lump sum annual payment might be the better route, but there may be reasons for not wanting it to be remitted all at once. What happens after the 12 months is then my business. Either I find more cash or I give up living here

 

To sum up: does the proof/declaration to the Embassy only relate to the 12 months for which the visa wil be valid?

[Gaybutton]

To sum up: does the proof/declaration to the Embassy only relate to the 12 months for which the visa wil be valid?

To my knowledge, that's right. In your case I would advise contacting the Thai embassy in your home country, explain your circumstances to them, and see what they tell you. The last thing I would do would be to rely on message board advice.

 

If you don't already have a retirement visa, then you might be better off obtaining a first visa in your home country, rather than coming to Thailand to try to obtain it here. That way you will know all the requirements and be entering Thailand with the visa already in your hands.

 

Part of the problem is that the regulations seem to change quite often. At this moment nobody really knows just what is going on, if anything.

 

Has anyone been asked to provide additional proof or is this just rumor and speculation?

So far, nobody who posts here is saying they have been asked. I think people are blowing this up all out of proportion. For whatever reasons, sometimes it seems as if people start to panic over nothing. If Immigration really does ask for additional proof, what's the problem? I doubt it would take much to satisfy them. I truly believe what they are trying to do is find a way to catch people who lie about their income level and end up causing problems for Thailand.

 

Since people do seem to be getting concerned about what would be proof enough for Immigration, then don't wait until the last minute to renew the visa. Apparently you can renew up to three months in advance. So, it seems simple enough to me. Renew several weeks in advance. That way, if they really do want additional proof from you, you're leaving yourself enough time to obtain it before your current visa expires.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

So far, nobody who posts here is saying they have been asked. I think people are blowing this up all out of proportion. For whatever reasons, sometimes it seems as if people start to panic over nothing.

This is exactly what I thought. The same was true when the Thai government said they were going to clamp down on foreign corporations. People were getting all bent out of shape worrying about condos that were bought using a corporation. Nothing ever materialized about it. Take a deep breath and take care of a problem when it actually arises. Forget about the "WHAT IF'S".

[Guest fountainhall]

In your case I would advise contacting the Thai embassy in your home country, explain your circumstances to them, and see what they tell you

 

Many thanks. I will check with the Thai Embassy and also with an Immigration lawyer here just to be safe. I'll post the result at a later stage.

 

I should explain that I did in fact obtain my original retirement visa outside Thailand and am about to apply for the 3rd renewal here using the lump sum approach. My concern, whilst largely hypothetical, is that at some point in the future I may have to rely more on investments and other income than a rather poor pension. And if the present dire economic climate continues for some years, I can see a possible problem on the horizon.

[Guest GaySacGuy]

I am going to give some free advice, so you know what it is worth!!!

 

Just shut up, and continue as you always have to get your visa...and then IF SOMEONE ASK for additional information deal with it at that time.

 

That said, it would never hurt to obtain any information that you think might help ahead of time.

 

But asking at embassies and immigration offices is just stiring a pot that isn't even simmering. I don't want the pot to boil over on all of us!!

[Guest LastSamurai]

Hello, this is LastSamurai from Osaka. Recalling that the three posts per day contest is coming to a close soon, I thought I'd give it another try! Actually, I have three Thai related issues on my mind today, and maybe this is the best place for me to start.

 

In March 2008, I travelled (visaless) to Pattaya applied for, and received a RETIREMENT VISA, valid until beginning of June 2009. I also obtained a one-time re-entry permit, which, to this date, I have never used, because of certain personal reversals, the details of which I shall spare you gentlemen.

 

Anyway, I was wondering... and now glancing over this thread, I am worrying about possible problems surrounding renewal of the visa, as I intend to spend far more time in Thailand from now on.

 

I plan to arrive in Pattaya mid April and stay until first week of May, then return to Japan to tidy up affairs (business afffairs, that is ).

 

Will I encounter any problems trying to renew the visa one month in advance because I do not intend to be physically in Thailand on the date of expiry of current visa?

 

I have never reported a 90 day address because I presumed that it applied only to visa holders who actually were in Thailand; I was not, to which Thai airport Immigration stamps will attest.

 

I assume that 65,000 Baht income per month is still sufficient? How recent must the affidavit from the Consulate be? 2 or 3 weeks is not "stale-dated", is it?

 

I hold an account with Thai Farmers' Bank in Pattaya. Last year, the Pattaya Immigration insisted on a letter, dated the very same day from the bank, along with my also showing my passbook. Since I've not been in contact with the bank in nearly a year, is there any possibility they've put my account "in dormancy"???

 

Appreciate any advice; don't expect life in LOS to be always easy.

 

Thank you.

[Guest GaySacGuy]

Will I encounter any problems trying to renew the visa one month in advance because I do not intend to be physically in Thailand on the date of expiry of current visa?

 

 

I assume that 65,000 Baht income per month is still sufficient? How recent must the affidavit from the Consulate be? 2 or 3 weeks is not "stale-dated", is it?

 

 

I can answer a couple of your concerns....You should have no problem renewing the visa 30 days ahead. Be aware however, that any re-entry permits attached to the origional retirement visa die with the renewal.

 

Also by personnel experience I used a letter from the Embassy verifying income about 1 month after I got the letter. The main thing seems to be that you have to have the original with the embossing that the embassy put on the letter.

[Gaybutton]

Recalling that the three posts per day contest is coming to a close soon, I thought I'd give it another try!

 

Will I encounter any problems trying to renew the visa one month in advance because I do not intend to be physically in Thailand on the date of expiry of current visa?How recent must the affidavit from the Consulate be?

 

is there any possibility they've put my account "in dormancy"???

 

1. I hate to break the bad news, but in order for your posts to be eligible for the contest, you must have a minimum of 150 posts. Before today, you had a grand total of 3 posts in one day, so if you wish to become eligible, you have a hell of a lot of posting to do between now and the end of the month.

 

2. The proof-of-income statement is acceptable for up to a year. You won't have any problem renewing a month in advance.

 

3. Your bank account will be active.