Owner of Pointe shares his views on Saunas longgevity

[Tomcal]

this article recently appeared in a publication with a interview of Junior Barbarossa the owner of Pointe.  He like everyone else does not think the gay escort saunas will last much longer(as most everyone agrees)! So for those who have been putting off going for whatever reason, you should go this next year as it could be your last chance!  

[mattgunther]

Nothing is linked to your post.  Can  you link to the article or let us know where we can find it?

 

[Tomcal]

Sorry i thought the link was there! 

https://noticias.uol.com.br/cotidiano/ultimas-noticias/2021/10/30/copacabana-sauna-gay-sobrevive-a-pandemia-mas-dono-preve-sucumbir-a-apps.htm

[babybear2]

Is it really because of the Apps?

It is hard to hire in the Apps because the photos can be fake, or taken many years ago

 

[davet]

Interesting article. I wonder whether the Copacabana mafia was the old Roger's sauna, my introduction to the Brazilian lifestyle almost exactly 20 years ago. Contrary to the owner's experience, I didn't think the sauna scene was that much more packed in the early 2000s. Rogers and Pointe (or whatever it was called then) were active but not packed. Lagoa and 117 were crazy packed on their specials and discount nights. Remember the studs lining up the staircase to wait for an available cabin at 117? I once gave up on a tanned, blond surf-type because I couldn't wait and he wouldn't agree to a quicky in the stalls.

It seems the sauna scene was most packed around 2010-15, in terms of number of establishments and the labor force therein. I'm really curious whether the apps are taking this business away. We have had rentmen, etc. for ages in the US, and before that the back pages of local alterna-weeklies. I think the Brazilians had their websites and print ads too. They did not and do not offer the on-the-spot assessment that sauna clienteles look for. 

[TotallyOz]

I hope the saunas last a long time. The locals use them and many will not use the apps. They are legal and legit. I am not sure those things will change.

Like most areas, apps do change the numbers. But, there is always a case for viewing in person as opposed to online. A recent trip to a Bangkok Massage for a cute guy turned out to be really bad for me as he looked NOTHING like the photos. I always enjoyed the saunas as you really get to see the good before you test them in a room.

I do miss those big nights at 117 where I had to wait 2 hours for a room.

[bangdom]

also there are many "straight" or married men who won't advertise on apps or websites due to wanting to keep their anonymity but are happy to show up at saunas and this is when we get lucky as many of them are gods.   I also like to inspect the goods prior to purchase, if some of the so called tops cannot get hard when inspecting I move on!

[Tomcal]

1 hour ago, TotallyOz said:

Like most areas, apps do change the numbers. But, there is always a case for viewing in person as opposed to online. A recent trip to a Bangkok Massage for a cute guy turned out to be really bad for me as he looked NOTHING like the photos. I always enjoyed the saunas as you really get to see the good before you test them in a room.

I do miss those big nights at 117 where I had to wait 2 hours for a room.

I agree Oz, unfortunately i think the Brazilian economy has affected the middle class/middle age clients the most!  a night out at the sauna for a Brazilian costs $60R. for admission, suites vary but a night out at the sauna for a local runs about $300.R.if they do one guy! and have a drink! those who used to go Once a week go once a month if that!

[babybear2]

3 hours ago, Tomcal said:

I agree Oz, unfortunately i think the Brazilian economy has affected the middle class/middle age clients the most!  a night out at the sauna for a Brazilian costs $60R. for admission, suites vary but a night out at the sauna for a local runs about $300.R.if they do one guy! and have a drink! those who used to go Once a week go once a month if that!

This probably is the root cause

Foreign tourist only counts a small portion. Rich locals are the main client base and they are not doing very good due to economy

[Vanbcanthony]

I hope this doesn't turn out true! Haven't had my fair share of the fun yet and I'm working hard on my Portuguese. Don't tell me the music is gonna stop even before I start. Darn. 

[davet]

11 hours ago, Vanbcanthony said:

I hope this doesn't turn out true! Haven't had my fair share of the fun yet and I'm working hard on my Portuguese. Don't tell me the music is gonna stop even before I start. Darn. 

You have at least one year.

[Riobard]

I have no sympathy for him and the mindset rigidity that prevents having a stripper/lapdance arrangement integrated into the setting without upsetting the conventional brothel model. Somebody needs to grab him by the scruff of the neck, drag him to Montreal, etc, and show him that his venue structure could accommodate both agendas/playbooks.

It’s a mystery to me, what with erotic performative labor including full sex legalized, the middle ground of, say, BRL10 private lap dances by strippers with full evening stage continuity, and said lap dances in a VIP open space (ie, top floor with slow music tracks) or more private booths such as could be the few adjacent small suites up there, has never caught on.

It seems to be a major gap, oversight, in Brazil in terms of the continuum from watching/observing to full interactive transactional sex. If I were to rank my top 25 experiences past 25 years there would be both Brazil sauna brothel and northern strip club encounters in the mix. 

It could be lucrative for the house and local studs willing to meet halfway. I am not referring to the largely play-hard-to-get small contingent of dancers corralled by their drag MCs. I mean physique guys open to removing their clothes and engaging in private physical touch according to the optional boundaries of a stripper club, without the high-level performance demand for full sex that screens out many of them.

Strip club owners up here can make a good living without the brothel aspect. The current problem in Montreal is too many at once trying to remain sustainable.

He could consider the potential adjunct without much alteration to the space and capitalize on the best of both worlds. It would be a bigger challenge for some of the venues other than 202, but I could envision it there. He could consider experimenting with it without the need of extensive retrofitting. 

Multi-purpose innovation is the key to survival. Such an arrangement could also open to the door to structured ladies’ nights with a full roster of ‘part-time job’ strippers and lap dances for them. And, OMG, audition nights. 

For a small sum he could optionally get a one month membership for Stock Bar streaming to get a flavour of the arrangement. Each evening plays into a 24-hour loop so he can view outside of his club management hours. No need for a pole, necessarily. My favourite dancers have often not utilized it and may simply walk around rhythmically without fancy moves.

 

[davet]

Sounds like I need to check out Montreal. I admit to being near-virginal when it comes to lap dancing. One bar in Mexico City, can't remember whether he even let me get to 2nd base. Didn't have a chance to check out the top floor of Gigolo House in Bogota. But at Lagoa and a couple bars in Brazil, the stripper could be quite interactive. The nisei gogo boy I've been obsessing over actually guided my shy hand to the adventurous regions. So yeah, I could see Lagoa taking a small further step. That said, I'm not as optimistic about any expanded talent pool. A modicum of ability is required, and a lame-dancing stripper can be downright cock-wilting. Maybe forget the dancing and turn it into an amateur grope-a-thon? 

Sex industries might also be culturally determined. Just as I can't imagine any other country fully replicating the peak Brazilian sauna scene, maybe lap dancing won't translate to a country where far more services can be had for decades now.

[scott456]

Just to add my two cents:

1.  I would be very hesitant to hire a GP online based on his photoshopped pictures.

2. Brazilian go go boys are the best looking and best body shape, compare to the go go boys in Mexico, Colombia, or even U.S. and Canada.

[Riobard]

On 10/31/2021 at 2:18 PM, davet said:

 

On 11/2/2021 at 12:54 AM, davet said:

Sounds like I need to check out Montreal. I admit to being near-virginal when it comes to lap dancing. One bar in Mexico City, can't remember whether he even let me get to 2nd base. Didn't have a chance to check out the top floor of Gigolo House in Bogota. But at Lagoa and a couple bars in Brazil, the stripper could be quite interactive. The nisei gogo boy I've been obsessing over actually guided my shy hand to the adventurous regions. So yeah, I could see Lagoa taking a small further step. That said, I'm not as optimistic about any expanded talent pool. A modicum of ability is required, and a lame-dancing stripper can be downright cock-wilting. Maybe forget the dancing and turn it into an amateur grope-a-thon? 

Sex industries might also be culturally determined. Just as I can't imagine any other country fully replicating the peak Brazilian sauna scene, maybe lap dancing won't translate to a country where far more services can be had for decades now.

After having been to Toronto and Montreal clubs for years, my experiences at Manhattan NYC venues, CDMX, Puerto Vallarta, Acapulco (though that city’s visits more dated) and GEH Bogotá were a joke by comparison … Kafka-Burl-esque. Almost as if they were trying to reinvent the wheel without the benefit of a solid experiential grasp of how things are best run. That is why I suggested an entrepreneur such as Junior would be better off witnessing it in person. So your points about the feasibility of introducing the concept at Point202, etc are well taken.

My suggestion rests partly on my wish for more selection in terms of the physical type that appeals to me as well as my adaptability to a full range of erotic play that does not necessarily culminate in the ‘main event’ that is characteristic of a programa. 

[davet]

On 11/3/2021 at 12:13 PM, Riobard said:

My suggestion rests partly on my wish for more selection in terms of the physical type that appeals to me as well as my adaptability to a full range of erotic play that does not necessarily culminate in the ‘main event’ that is characteristic of a programa. 

A petting zoo? A gallery of living sculptures with no "do not touch" signs? Me and three not-ready-to-go-all-the-way collegiate types crammed into a shower stall? 

No, I haven't thought about it at all!

[SolaceSoul]

On 11/3/2021 at 3:13 PM, Riobard said:

 

After having been to Toronto and Montreal clubs for years, my experiences at Manhattan NYC venues, CDMX, Puerto Vallarta, Acapulco (though that city’s visits more dated) and GEH Bogotá were a joke by comparison … Kafka-Burl-esque. Almost as if they were trying to reinvent the wheel without the benefit of a solid experiential grasp of how things are best run. That is why I suggested an entrepreneur such as Junior would be better off witnessing it in person. So your points about the feasibility of introducing the concept at Point202, etc are well taken.

My suggestion rests partly on my wish for more selection in terms of the physical type that appeals to me as well as my adaptability to a full range of erotic play that does not necessarily culminate in the ‘main event’ that is characteristic of a programa. 

This concept works in Montreal, but most likely would fail in Brazilian sauna culture. Gogo boys in Brazil aren’t too keen in being lumped in with the sauna Garotos, and any sex work outside of the sauna or club beyond their stage performances would have to be individually and discretely negotiated on a per-client basis. The gogo boys I know in Brazil would not feel comfortable doing private lap dances in tiny booths inside a sauna or public nightclub. 

Plus, although some of us may cringe, the drag shows are the features performance and the dancers are just guests. There are loyal paying clients who love the dragons. Having private lap dance booths for the performing gogo boys may be viewed as distracting from the key drag performances. 
 

[davet]

There seems to be a class dynamic among erotic workers in Brazil. The front desk guy at the sauna in Sao Luiz was by far the hottest guy there. He stated very matter-of-factly, "I would never sell my body" and "I was a stripper; a go-go boy is outra coisa." Since I only had muscle on my mind, I was shaky on the difference. 

[Riobard]

2 hours ago, SolaceSoul said:

This concept works in Montreal, but most likely would fail in Brazilian sauna culture. Gogo boys in Brazil aren’t too keen in being lumped in with the sauna Garotos, and any sex work outside of the sauna or club beyond their stage performances would have to be individually and discretely negotiated on a per-client basis. The gogo boys I know in Brazil would not feel comfortable doing private lap dances in tiny booths inside a sauna or public nightclub. 

Plus, although some of us may cringe, the drag shows are the features performance and the dancers are just guests. There are loyal paying clients who love the dragons. Having private lap dance booths for the performing gogo boys may be viewed as distracting from the key drag performances. 
 

Good points. I was aware of all these considerations when I put forward the idea. I had actually also recalled that you yourself highlight a proportion of clientele that shows up as a social outlet more for watching than doing. The population age pyramid in Brazil is also quickly creeping up with a greater proportional share of 30’s, 40’s entering mid to later middle age, with presumably a concomitant desire for public venues beyond hire apps. A growing ‘silver economy’ pulling up aging gay men into it. 

I didn’t suggest that the gogo boy contingent adopt the private dance model or that the stripper/privatedance model would supplant the circumscribed period of time in which the drag/gogo performance occurs. I believe the venue pays a fee for the show. In contrast, integrating the stripper concept would not dip into the house profit margins. 

There would need to be some segregation between the two stage-gaze performance models and between the private model of programa and private/semi-private lapdance model. 

One of the reasons I highlighted Pnt202 is that the structure could accommodate this functional split in the same way I have witnessed such activity segregation in several establishments that have multiple floor levels serving clientele, eg Toronto, Montreal, CDMX, Bogotá. In Brazil, it would involve adding the middle ground I described that would live on the continuum between gogonotprostitutebutprostitutionthatmaybebyanothername, and conventional quarta trick. Obviously, the key is finding a new performative breed that the clientele willingly supports financially, and overriding the risk of a JetsSharks-grade feud between garotos and strippers (or streepers and gogos as some of the latter might resent losing private business on the down low). Of course, I could go on and add the house massage w/w-out benefits, &c, &c. 

If commercial sex work were to be decriminalized in Canada, it would likely be a challenge to integrate a sauna brothel - massage parlour model into a strip club without the functional segregation aspect. I’m not saying it’s easy, but it’s not a stretch to find patron support for a diversity of erotic interactional transactional entertainment. It’s a matter of worthwhile volume. 

It’s all somewhat moot because Junior’s establishment going under doesn’t affect me. And my proposal is not going to materialize.

And then there were 3 …

[Riobard]

1 hour ago, davet said:

There seems to be a class dynamic among erotic workers in Brazil. The front desk guy at the sauna in Sao Luiz was by far the hottest guy there. He stated very matter-of-factly, "I would never sell my body" and "I was a stripper; a go-go boy is outra coisa." Since I only had muscle on my mind, I was shaky on the difference. 

Is that Parahyba? What’s it like?

—-
The host protesteth muchly. 

It’s a special skill. The ones OK at it tend to keep it on the DL, though I’ve had a few gogo programas on site that I proposed as private dances and where they took the lead for interaction not distinguishable from a typical GdeP encounter, without any upsell. 

The ones shitty at it in relation to conventional local client expectations there would never [gasp!], as it’s beneath them. But the boundary variation is no different from the performative gradient among strippers in my neck of the woods. They just tend to be express being more flattered than insulted and don’t protest that you might stereotype them as prostitutes. 

[Riobard]

Sorry, @davet, that’s João Pessoa. What’s the one in São Luiz?

[SolaceSoul]

21 hours ago, Riobard said:

Good points. I was aware of all these considerations when I put forward the idea. I had actually also recalled that you yourself highlight a proportion of clientele that shows up as a social outlet more for watching than doing. The population age pyramid in Brazil is also quickly creeping up with a greater proportional share of 30’s, 40’s entering mid to later middle age, with presumably a concomitant desire for public venues beyond hire apps. A growing ‘silver economy’ pulling up aging gay men into it. 

I didn’t suggest that the gogo boy contingent adopt the private dance model or that the stripper/privatedance model would supplant the circumscribed period of time in which the drag/gogo performance occurs. I believe the venue pays a fee for the show. In contrast, integrating the stripper concept would not dip into the house profit margins. 

There would need to be some segregation between the two stage-gaze performance models and between the private model of programa and private/semi-private lapdance model. 

One of the reasons I highlighted Pnt202 is that the structure could accommodate this functional split in the same way I have witnessed such activity segregation in several establishments that have multiple floor levels serving clientele, eg Toronto, Montreal, CDMX, Bogotá. In Brazil, it would involve adding the middle ground I described that would live on the continuum between gogonotprostitutebutprostitutionthatmaybebyanothername, and conventional quarta trick. Obviously, the key is finding a new performative breed that the clientele willingly supports financially, and overriding the risk of a JetsSharks-grade feud between garotos and strippers (or streepers and gogos as some of the latter might resent losing private business on the down low). Of course, I could go on and add the house massage w/w-out benefits, &c, &c. 

If commercial sex work were to be decriminalized in Canada, it would likely be a challenge to integrate a sauna brothel - massage parlour model into a strip club without the functional segregation aspect. I’m not saying it’s easy, but it’s not a stretch to find patron support for a diversity of erotic interactional transactional entertainment. It’s a matter of worthwhile volume. 

It’s all somewhat moot because Junior’s establishment going under doesn’t affect me. And my proposal is not going to materialize.

And then there were 3 …

 

As usual, you’re overthinking it.

in Brazil, culturally there’s a wide chasm between how gogo boys / strippers view their availability to sex work and how sauna garotos do. It’s like how call girls look down on brothel girls or street walkers. The “I’m not like those other heauxs!” syndrome is culturally ingrained in the variants of sex work in Brazil — maybe because of the culture, maybe because it’s all legal. Maybe it’s a combination thereof. 

A number of the gogo boys are discreetly / not-so-discreetly available for private dances / programas outside the sauna setting. A client / customer just has to be willing and open to the dance. Whether it’s a worthy venture or not is only for each individual to decide for himself.

I do not see how a sauna operator (Junior or otherwise) would add the feature you’re proposing unless there were a clamoring for it from a regular stream of clients. You are probably in a very small minority — maybe even a minority of one! 

[SolaceSoul]

21 hours ago, Riobard said:

I had actually also recalled that you yourself highlight a proportion of clientele that shows up as a social outlet more for watching than doing.

If you are simply referring to the shows, I don’t know where you would have gotten this impression. Regarding drag shows, they’re not my thing. I take interest in the strip shows only to see if it’s someone I know or find attractive dancing — but I almost never sit at tables and watch the shows. 

I do enjoy the sauna culture though, and enjoy the socialization aspect of it as much as the sex. 

[Riobard]

I have the good, perhaps rare, fortune of being able to extract what I like about the erotic entertainment/outlet options of two cultural settings. Of course, the potential profitability of a new adjunct in either setting, be it according to this brief discussion or where poutine / feijão can fly, hinges on tradition and attachment to the familiar. 

[Riobard]

The hours of loop of videos at Pnt202 it is, then. A featured show and business as usual. 

Any suggestions to attenuate Junior’s lament?