The Prince massage

[TMax]

This is becoming depressing, if true. Just been looking up the Prince massage in Bangkok and it appears another quality massage spa has closed permanently (according to Google search), that's 3 of my favourites gone now. I can understand these things happening because of covid but I'm really starting to wonder just what if any gay massage businesses will survive and what things will be like on the other side of the pandemic. Truly hoping this thing is over or under control sooner rather than later and that these businesses can start back up again.

[Guest]

Thailand seems to be delivering over 0.5 million doses per day at present.   So approximately 70% of the population could be vaccinated near the end of the year. 

With the combinations of vaccination and the economic pressures, there is likely to be a degree of opening up.   The number of massage shops is likely to correlate to demand, but it just might not be exactly the same business and owner you are familiar with.

[vinapu]

When we return so will shops and boys. It may not be immediate but I think relatively fast. The same like with many of  those closed business in our countries.

Whether Prince will re-open  in it's location it may be different question as it was sitting on piece of  prime real estate

[Boy69]

19 hours ago, vinapu said:

When we return so will shops and boys. It may not be immediate but I think relatively fast. The same like with many of  those closed business in our countries.

Whether Prince will re-open  in it's location it may be different question as it was sitting on piece of  prime real estate

I love your too optimistic forecast , Sadly Thailand won't be the same in the near future and it will take years to recover slowly.

[PeterRS]

Once gay tourists return, there will surely be an increase in demand for bars, massage spas and saunas. But those which are presently closed due to the lockdown are still having to pay rent and some staff costs. Pre-lockdown, reports on this forum suggested that outside of Bangkok Soi 4, there were few customers at the other venues. Once the lockdown and curfew eases or is cancelled, some patrons will return. But few tourists are likely to do so if only because there are so few of them around. So the chances that those which do manage to open can make up their losses in the medium term most surely be almost zero. Their financial situation will remain fragile.

For those which have closed permanently, presumably the managements have given up the leases and have stopped paying rent on their premises. Without a sudden flood of new tourists, is it realistic to expect they will have sufficient available cash to find other premises, pay advance rent and key money, pay all the costs of renovating to provide proper services and pay some basic staff costs? My gut feel is that those which have closed will remain closed. They will not move elsewhere. After all, long before the pandemic, long-term popular and centrally located spas like Albury and Aqua closed because they just could not make ends meet. This may have been a result of rent increases or in the case of Albury a failling customer base after it moved from Suk Soi 11. But if they could not continue operating when tourism was still pretty high, what chance is there those who have closed with tourism almost zero when it is probably also true that the managements have substantial unpaid debts.

[vinapu]

2 hours ago, Boy69 said:

I love your too optimistic forecast , Sadly Thailand won't be the same in the near future and it will take years to recover slowly.

no country will be the same and so won't us after pandemic. But desires to earn some easy money and to spent it on some willing warm body will be still there.

Recovery may be prolonged or swift like Afganistan's collapse but will happen , at least to some degree for reason above.

If bars won't open soon than those who will come at least get a chance to see more Thailand behind just soi 4 and Boyztown. Many of us 2 weeks millionaires never set a foot in Chiang Rai, Chiang Mai, Sukhotai, Kanchanaburi, Samui, Krabi etc. 

It took me 16 trips before I sent my foot in MBM and I doubt I'm alone, how many of us did not visit Wat Halampong or Snake Farm, literally just steps from our beloved soi Twilight. 

So instead of sowing gloom which may or may not happen we better start planning  how to be busy in case when Moonlight or Nice Boys won't be opened. And still is worth to remember that by end of day / literally, again / we need only one bar and one boy from that bar.

We have heat wave and  as expected my A/c broke last night. This morning I went without any hope to see if at least one , scratched and damaged will be left in store. Miraculously in the 4th one I visited was one leftover , still unsealed. Bought,  installed and is humming nicely, how not to be an optimist? 

 

[vinapu]

26 minutes ago, PeterRS said:

.... that the managements have substantial unpaid debts.

with that usually comes desire to earn money to repay that debt

[spoon]

I dont mised the bar or massage places but i miss the boys. So as long as boys are around and willing to join me, i should be good. Bar and massage places makes it easier for us but if there isnt any, back to the apps then. 

[PeterRS]

10 hours ago, vinapu said:

If bars won't open soon than those who will come at least get a chance to see more Thailand behind just soi 4 and Boyztown. Many of us 2 weeks millionaires never set a foot in Chiang Rai, Chiang Mai, Sukhotai, Kanchanaburi, Samui, Krabi etc. 

Now that is a very positive outlook. Bravo! Remember also that in addition to cities and sights, Thailand has some amazing Festivals. We all know about Songkran and Loy Krathong, but I wonder how many have ever ventured to the Candle Festival in Ubon Ratchathani or perhaps the most famous of the Ghost Festivals in Dansai in Loei Province. Loei itself is a fascinating Province to explore as it hardly seems like Thailand: lush, green, hilly, it even has a vineyard. These two Festivals coincide with the start of Buddhist Lent in the summer and the dates are often not confirmed until about 6 months in advance. Also Dansai is a small village of only around 10,000 people. There is only one good hotel that is within walking distance, the Phunacome up in the hill behind the town. It has an excellent shuttle service if you don't want to climb the hill. But there are nearby hotels that provide transport to and from the Festival.

The Candle Festival is not a Parade of people holding candles! Every temple n the city has artisans spending a month beforehand decorating trucks and lorries with wax carvings, mostly of Buddhist scenes. The Parade is so long and encompasses not just the 40 or so trucks but also various other traditional activities. Lots of cute guys there!  The Ghost Festival is spread over 3 days but I found the day of the Parade the most fascinating. I throughly recommend them as fantastic days.

Udon Candle Festival 

Loei Ghost Festival

 

 

[vinapu]

no doubt lots of cute guys take part as last picture attests !

[TMax]

2 hours ago, spoon said:

I dont mised the bar or massage places but i miss the boys. So as long as boys are around and willing to join me, i should be good. Bar and massage places makes it easier for us but if there isnt any, back to the apps then. 

I was never really into the bar scene but enjoyed the massage places, good for a quick massage and then some steamy sex, as you say it will be the apps if the bars and massage places aren't there anymore. 

[PeterRS]

2 hours ago, vinapu said:

no doubt lots of cute guys take part as last picture attests !

I was amazed - there were lots. If you look at the last photo of the Udon Festival, the boys carrying the beauty queen all look great. At that time Udon had a gay sauna quite close to the river. Not busy when I was there, but the other patrons seemed to enjoy the company of a farang! Not sure if it still exists.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, PeterRS said:

I was amazed - there were lots. If you look at the last photo of the Udon Festival, the boys carrying the beauty queen all look great. At that time Udon had a gay sauna quite close to the river. Not busy when I was there, but the other patrons seemed to enjoy the company of a farang! Not sure if it still exists.

Thank you for posting the article.   However, a little clarification would be appreciated.  I see references to both Ubon Rachathani and Udon, which is usually Udon Thani.    I presume you still mean Ubon, as I don't recall any substantial river in Udon Thani ?

I visited a small sauna in Udon Thani in January 2019, near the railway.   About 3 other customers who were not my type and probably not available.

I did not manage to find any sauna in Ubon Rachathani in February 2019.  There are some quite nice temples (see photos).

The 4th photo is from Phanom Rung near Nang Rong, which is a Khmer temple on top of a very old volcano.    Views would have been very good but for the pollution haze.  

Since Vinapu is suggesting traveling beyond Bangkok & Pattaya, I included a map showing my rough route for that leg of the trip.    

 

[PeterRS]

2 hours ago, z909 said:

Thank you for posting the article.   However, a little clarification would be appreciated.  I see references to both Ubon Rachathani and Udon, which is usually Udon Thani.    I presume you still mean Ubon, as I don't recall any substantial river in Udon Thani ?

Apologies. Yes, I should have written Ubon.

[macaroni21]

22 hours ago, PeterRS said:

For those which have closed permanently, presumably the managements have given up the leases and have stopped paying rent on their premises. Without a sudden flood of new tourists, is it realistic to expect they will have sufficient available cash to find other premises, pay advance rent and key money, pay all the costs of renovating to provide proper services and pay some basic staff costs? My gut feel is that those which have closed will remain closed. They will not move elsewhere. After all, long before the pandemic, long-term popular and centrally located spas like Albury and Aqua closed because they just could not make ends meet. This may have been a result of rent increases or in the case of Albury a failling customer base after it moved from Suk Soi 11. But if they could not continue operating when tourism was still pretty high, what chance is there those who have closed with tourism almost zero when it is probably also true that the managements have substantial unpaid debts.

I think you're right that the distressed businesses might have lost so much money, they won't have the capital to re-start even when the country re-opens. However, in the nature of business cycles, new entrepreneurs will step into the void.

Having said that, the tourist market (and not just the farang tourist market) will take time to recover. It may be 2023 before we see anything resembling the options available in 2019.

What will revive first is the segment that caters to the domestic Thai market, for example, the gay massage places that were located in Hway Khwang or Nonthaburi and which we often considered too far and too "no English spoken" to be worth the trouble. My guess is that the first wave of travellers will be horny and desperate enough to make the trek there. Then after a while, someone will see that the tourist market is sufficient to design a new enterprise for.

Even so, revival of the tourist-oriented massage places (with more central locations and upscale facilities) will depend not on the farang arrivals, but on Asian arrivals -- since even before the pandemic, the Asian tourists were their biggest market.

The Soi 4 bars, which have a base of resident expats, have a good chance of revival, though until tourists fully return, may remain subdued for perhaps 6 - 12 months. 

The gogo bars I find hard to predict.  Capital for investment and footfall are not their only problems. For many years now, they've relied more and more on boys from Vietnam, Myanmar and Cambodia. Will these borders re-open? Will Covid be controlled in those countries? That's the extra spanner in the works.

So far, I've only referenced Bangkok. Pattaya is another set of calculations. In addtion to all the above factors, Pattaya also has the issue of long-term decline, because it has never managed to appeal to gay Asians to make up for the shrinkage of gay farangs. 

[vinapu]

10 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

 It may be 2023 before we see anything resembling the options available in 2019.

 

it's only 16 months away

[PeterRS]

11 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

What will revive first is the segment that caters to the domestic Thai market, for example, the gay massage places that were located in Hway Khwang or Nonthaburi and which we often considered too far and too "no English spoken" to be worth the trouble. My guess is that the first wave of travellers will be horny and desperate enough to make the trek there. Then after a while, someone will see that the tourist market is sufficient to design a new enterprise for.

Even so, revival of the tourist-oriented massage places (with more central locations and upscale facilities) will depend not on the farang arrivals, but on Asian arrivals -- since even before the pandemic, the Asian tourists were their biggest market.

The Soi 4 bars, which have a base of resident expats, have a good chance of revival, though until tourists fully return, may remain subdued for perhaps 6 - 12 months. 

The gogo bars I find hard to predict.  Capital for investment and footfall are not their only problems. For many years now, they've relied more and more on boys from Vietnam, Myanmar and Cambodia. Will these borders re-open? Will Covid be controlled in those countries? That's the extra spanner in the works.

I think @numazu's predictions are about right, in my view. I agree it will be the Asian gay market that revives first. From chatting to a few over recent years and judging from a couple of internet chat rooms based elsewhere in the region, Asians are generally more interested in massage and to a lesser extent saunas than they are in go-go bars. This is especially true of Singaporeans, Malaysians and Taiwanese - i.e. those from countries where individuals or small groups of gay guys are quite regular travellers. They are also perhaps more adventurous in finding spas out of the city centre. But the quality of the massage is usually as important as the afters, and any new establishments will need to ensure their masseurs are trained.

Asians had been keeping Bangkok's go-go bars alive for some time, both on stage and off. I know that many of the audience would go for a massage or to Babylon or Chakran before going to a bar - but to see the show rather than a group of scantily clad guys doing a soft shoe shuffle on stage. After all, they had already satisfied their sexual desires that evening. Not having been a regular for some years, I depend on reports from friends, but it does seem to me that as a general rule not so many go to take off a boy. Having occasionally been with friends at Dick's or one of the beer bars in Soi Twilight in its last year or two, it was obvious that trade for the go-go bars was quite limited until after 10:00pm. And after the shows, there would be a major exodus. That means the bars will once again depend on drink prices to keep their heads above water. That will deter few Asians, I believe, but surely put off the farang who seemed constantly to complain about rising prices.

Again from what I read and hear, the sexual prowess of the boys from neighbouring countries varies, some exceptional but more duds than with the Thai boys. Also many seemed to be working illegally so that if the BiB appeared they would instantly disappear. Is that really likely to change? Will those boys have any chance of a proper work visa? Surely not. In the old days 20+ years ago (sorry guys, I know we should be looking forward, not back) the Thai boys on stage usually seemed to be having fun and were genuinely pleased to get an off. Certainly as far as I was concerned I was rarely disappointed with an off.

Which brings me to the next point. We know that improved economic circumstances were one reason for the Thai boys gradually leaving the bar scene. I assume many must now be suffering badly. Is it likely that this will drive more Thai boys back to the bars in the hope that this will financially be much more remunerative, at least in the short to medium term? That could be the fillip the bars desperately need.

[vinapu]

24 minutes ago, PeterRS said:

(sorry guys, I know we should be looking forward, not back)

you got that right !

[PeterRS]

11 minutes ago, vinapu said:

you got that right !

It's the glass half empty in me. I can't help it LOL

[thaiophilus]

On 8/26/2021 at 6:21 PM, vinapu said:

If bars won't open soon than those who will come at least get a chance to see more Thailand behind just soi 4 and Boyztown. Many of us 2 weeks millionaires never set a foot in Chiang Rai, Chiang Mai, Sukhotai, Kanchanaburi, Samui, Krabi etc. 

It took me 16 trips before I sent my foot in MBM and I doubt I'm alone, how many of us did not visit Wat Halampong or Snake Farm, literally just steps from our beloved soi Twilight.

Been there done that to most of the places on that list, but MBM?

[spoon]

1 hour ago, thaiophilus said:

Been there done that to most of the places on that list, but MBM?

Probably MBK? 

[vinapu]

yes , MBK, my bad, retail therapy is not my strong trait

[pong2]

My opinion about less and less real Thai boys working in either bars or massage is more the declining nr of such guys-TH is ageing rapidly. Plus the generally rising level of education among the fewer and fewer who become adult so more jobs open up for them. So thats progress.

But many of the Burmese and Khmer taking over do a job quite well. However, my favourite msg place tried out some VNese and after too many complaints of customers simply threw them out and wont take any again.

[reader]

2 hours ago, pong2 said:

However, my favourite msg place tried out some VNese and after too many complaints of customers simply threw them out and wont take any again.

Sure it wasn't that the Vietnamese guys wouldn't take you as a client again and tossed you out?

[PeterRS]

6 hours ago, pong2 said:

However, my favourite msg place tried out some VNese and after too many complaints of customers simply threw them out and wont take any again.

I have a friend in Bangkok whose bf is Vietnamese and they are very happy together. On a solo trip to Danang before the lockdown I had an amazing evening with a young Vietnamese boy who had clicked on an app. He was not a money boy, just a gay guy desperate to meet a farang. I wonder if the Vietnamese boys who work in the bars in Thailand are mostly straight and therefore less interested in sex with other guys.