Future of Thailand's Gay Saunas Under the Microscope

[PeterRS]

Well, that at least is the heading of an article in the Pattaya Mail about a month ago which seems not to have been picked up here. I am about the last to trust anything in that rag but no doubt some of its articles have more than a degree of truth.

This one focuses on the police raid on the Faros sauna in Bangkok and the arrest of 60 men, seemingly all Thais. (The Bangkok Post claims the number was 62 and the establishment is Faros 2). The concern of the police allegedly was less the sex angle but the use of chemsex and drug trafficking during the covid restrictions. Allegedly 37 of the group tested positive for drug use. "Good samaritans" had tipped off the police. On the other hand, the President of the Bangkok Rainbow Association said he was "concerned that people may now believe all gays are promiscuous and disease spreaders," a rather fatuous remark in my view given that there have been gay saunas in Bangkok for at least 35 years and quite a few very public raids on several during that time. He also claimed that "saunas were not just about sexual activity but also the human need for social interaction and mingling." Really? Aren't there bars for that?

One issue that has been aired before about city centre locations becoming too expensive is also addressed.

"Some say that an under-exposed reason for the closure of many gay meeting places, including saunas, is the process of gentrification. This means that, as property rents and purchase prices rise steeply in urban centers, traditional users are forced to leave to make way for expensive tower blocks, malls and top-tier residence developments. It is certainly true that much of Bangkok’s traditional night life, straight and gay, has already been scattered geographically by the huge demolition or redevelopment projects in downtown districts.

"Khun Prasert of the Rainbow Sky Alliance said, 'Queer spaces like saunas will survive because people want to mix with like-minded groups, but there will be a lot fewer choices post-Covid. That’s for sure.'”

https://www.pattayamail.com/latestnews/news/future-of-gay-saunas-in-thailand-now-under-the-microscope-357600

[Londoner]

If Babylon is to close permanently- perhaps it has already-  it will undoubtedly be the result of the property values of its surrounding area. 

However, anyone who remembers its old premises and the huge numbers it attracted twenty or so years ago will recognise that social media has affected the  popularity of saunas, perhaps as much as that of gay go go bars. Obelisk and Colony went long ago.  And others, whose names I cannot recall.

[a-447]

I  stopped going to saunas when I saw guys barebacking in Otot-otot in KL. I've also heard it's quite common in Korea, too.

But having said that I really enjoyed the sleaze factor and think it would be a shame if they ever disappeared.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, PeterRS said:

One issue that has been aired before about city centre locations becoming too expensive is also addressed.

 

"Some say that an under-exposed reason for the closure of many gay meeting places, including saunas, is the process of gentrification. This means that, as property rents and purchase prices rise steeply in urban centers, traditional users are forced to leave to make way for expensive tower blocks, malls and top-tier residence developments. It is certainly true that much of Bangkok’s traditional night life, straight and gay, has already been scattered geographically by the huge demolition or redevelopment projects in downtown districts.

Japan seems to manage rather well, even in Shinjuku.  One noticeable difference is that gay bars and other businesses can be located in quite compact buildings with perhaps 10 floors and one or two businesses per floor -see screenshot from google maps & look at the signs.   Even the larger sauna occupies a relatively small footprint, spread over several floors.    

In Silom, even when streets like Soi Twilight are subject to redevelopment, there are still plenty of under occupied or unoccupied premises.  So moving a bar ought to relatively easy.   Moving a sauna requires more capex, so some long term planning is needed.

Of course, what I don't know is if Tokyo have more zoning and planning controls to ensure certain areas are protected for entertainment and services.

Finally, both Tokyo and Bangkok have ageing populations and low rates of population growth or even possible population decline.   So there ought to be limits to growth in residential demand.

[PeterRS]

38 minutes ago, Londoner said:

If Babylon is to close permanently- perhaps it has already-  it will undoubtedly be the result of the property values of its surrounding area. 

However, anyone who remembers its old premises and the huge numbers it attracted twenty or so years ago will recognise that social media has affected the  popularity of saunas, perhaps as much as that of gay go go bars. Obelisk and Colony went long ago.  And others, whose names I cannot recall.

Everyone tells me it has permanently closed. Seems the owner plans to move to Chiang Mai. He certainly doesn't need the money as he is from a very rich family. But if he does depart, I cannot see anyone else taking over and making a go of a new sauna there. As @Londoner points out, the land value so close to the business district must be humungus, the more so when Babylon only represents part of that parcel. Much more likely I'd reckon will be a developer snapping it up to erect a 40 storey apartment complex like the Sukhothai Residences across the road - provided, that is, it can get round the city's legislation about the size of that soi, because it is too small for anything other than an 8 storey building unless there is another access.

I totally agree about the first Babylon at the top of the soi. Much more compact, often packed and as far as I recall many more younger and professional Thais. So popular that there were queues to get in at the weekends.

27 minutes ago, z909 said:

1) Japan seems to manage rather well, even in Shinjuku.  One noticeable difference is that gay bars and other businesses can be located in quite compact buildings with perhaps 10 floors and one or two businesses per floor -see screenshot from google maps & look at the signs.   Even the larger sauna occupies a relatively small footprint, spread over several floors.

2) Finally, both Tokyo and Bangkok have ageing populations and low rates of population growth or even possible population decline.   So there ought to be limits to growth in residential demand.

1) Although the buildings in the gay area are on the small side for Shinjuku, some pack 5 or 6 bars on to one level. But then most are tiny with seating for not much more than a dozen. Very few have much standing area except those at sweet level or in a basement like the popular GB. But like Bangkok, the number of bars is decreasing.  

Even in Shinjuku's main avenues, shops, cafes and restaurants are packed often with up to 6 on each floor.

2) Difficult to know if Tokyo can grow much larger. Even with a declining population nationwide, though, I expect there will still be many wanting to move to the city or its multitude of suburbs. 

[Londoner]

Others on this site are far more knowledgeable about Japan and its culture than I am - I've not even been there- but may I make a couple of points?

Is it possible that the communal bath-culture so loved in the country affected the acceptance and popularity of Japanese saunas?

And I have been a London sauna- frequenter for twenty years and  have the impression that Japanese guests are represented  at a higher level than I'd expect  from their numbers in London.

[PeterRS]

Public bathing was essential in Japan throughout its history because homes were small and did not have bathing areas. The culture of public nudity is therefore deeply ingrained in Japanese culture. This continues today with the popularity of hot springs around much of the country, a result of the extent of its geothermal activity.

All this started to change, very slowly at first following Commander Perry's battleship diplomacy which initiated Japan's desire to be taken seriously as a developed western nation. The near total rebuilding of its cities following the destruction of so many of their largely wooden houses during World War 2 resulted in eventual replacement with concrete and brick apartment buildings, many with individual private bathrooms. Not everyone could be accommodated in new buildings and so public bathhouses remained, as some do today especially in older less war-damaged parts of cities. Sex is not involved in public bathing where there are strict rules of etiquette.

My own view is that none of this had anything to do with the rise of gay saunas. It merely resulted in a complete acceptance of being nude in front of others. I do know that the first gay bar appeared in Tokyo in the 1960s. By the early 1980s I recall attending three gay saunas including then probably the most popular, Oban, close to the adult entertainment district of Kabuki-cho. The others were in the Shibuya and Ikebukuro districts. I think the oldest in the city is the original 24 located in an old building in the Asakusa district near the famous Senso-ji Temple. I say that because it seemed the most run down whereas the others were much more modern. When it was opened, though, I have no idea.

So, I see the opening of gay saunas merely as part of the growth of a young gay liberation.

[a-447]

I believe the Asakusa 24Kaikan opened in 1912, not as a gay sauna but rather as a place for cross-dressers to meet in secret.

 

Public bathing and gay saunas are in no way related, as PeterRS has indicated. Public bathing is all about social interaction, often based on the Japanese belief that, although their society is hierarchical and everyone knows his or her place, everyone is equal once they take their clothes off, as there is no indication of their status. 

My friends and I were frequent visitors to the sento (public bath), not because we didn't have our own baths but because we loved to chat with others.

I, of course, had a separate interest!

And lots of guys had an interest in the foreigner - I often found myself surrounded by guys wanting to see my cock. But I doubt they were gay; just curious.

[PeterRS]

7 hours ago, a-447 said:

Public bathing is all about social interaction, often based on the Japanese belief that, although their society is hierarchical and everyone knows his or her place, everyone is equal once they take their clothes off, as there is no indication of their status.

Is this one of the reasons many Japanese salarymen gravitate to pubs and clubs after work? After a couple of drinks everyone is more or less equal.

[a-447]

46 minutes ago, PeterRS said:

Is this one of the reasons many Japanese salarymen gravitate to pubs and clubs after work? After a couple of drinks everyone is more or less equal.

Yes.

Also there's an unwritten rule that if you get drunk and criticise your boss who is sitting next to you, all is forgiven and there will be no repercussions the next day in the office.

It's a way to let off steam and rid yourself of stress and frustration. And it works like a charm!

[pong2]

as for BKK; for a city this size-8 mln official, probably like 10-12 with the immediate surroundings and many non-registered people included, still has by far the highest nr of gay saunaś-even now, in un-closed times, at least some 20-25, granted this is less, nearly half, of the grand total some years ago. What is true and confirms above is that most surviving are in suburban and hence much cheaper areas. Around Silom only Heaven survives, afaik. But just like christian (who is much younger as me) Ive given up on visiting them. Those few in the provinces-when I went there, were much more rewarding. Many of the remaining places in BKK are now in 1 big concern who despises farang and charges much higher entry for whites and even more for elder people.

These 2 farot-places are mentioned ev. few monthes for yet another raid and with finding moreorless the same findings. As were some time ago a few notorious of the gay m2m massageshops.

This Pt-mail article seems mostly a short compilation of what was either on this or the other fora published item.

[PeterRS]

Sauna Mania remains off Soi Convent. But I read it is almost exclusively Thai for Thai/Asian. Besides, over 50s are charged something like 1,200 baht entrance. They only want younger guys there. 

[Londoner]

All is revealed! So that's where the young Thais and Asians went, leaving Babylon for the likes of me.

[faranglaw]

5 hours ago, PeterRS said:

Sauna Mania remains off Soi Convent. But I read it is almost exclusively Thai for Thai/Asian. Besides, over 50s are charged something like 1,200 baht entrance. They only want younger guys there. 

A Thai friend of mine’s dismissive comment on sauna mania:  “Office girls!”

[gerefan]

On 7/4/2021 at 1:35 PM, PeterRS said:

Sauna Mania remains off Soi Convent. But I read it is almost exclusively Thai for Thai/Asian. Besides, over 50s are charged something like 1,200 baht entrance. They only want younger guys there. 

That is not my experience. I went there several times over that last few years and never experienced anything like that, although I did read about it on forums such as this. 
 

Regular prices for Farangs of any age when I went. The only thing is that it got raided and so now closes early, which is a shame.

[PeterRS]

7 hours ago, gerefan said:

That is not my experience. I went there several times over that last few years and never experienced anything like that, although I did read about it on forums such as this. 
Regular prices for Farangs of any age when I went. The only thing is that it got raided and so now closes early, which is a shame.

I have not been to a sauna in many years but have heard about the pricing policy from a couple of older guys. I have also read about the higher prices on various sites. 4 comments from travelgayasia.com from 2020 and 2019.

28 Feb: “Pure discrimination, under 50: 280B, 50 y/o & over 1500B

28 Nov: “People over 50 yo are unwanted, almost banned. 1500 baht for them instead of 280 baht!“

2 Jun: “Foreigners entrance fee has shot up double since my last visit 2 years ago, now it is 4 times the local Thai (what an extortion - weekend is even higher)"

15Jan: “If you're over 50 or look over 50 years old, then you will be charged 800 baht for the pleasure of going into this place."

Even Utopia-Asia (granted, not always the most up to date site) states this:  "Men over 50yo must pay a higher entry fee."

I understand Sauna Mania has the same ownership as R3 sauna near Fortune Tower. A similar pricing discrimination operates there. 

Maybe the pricing policy changed in 2018 or 2019.

[Londoner]

I'm prepared to pay a higher price if it subsidises younger guys, the majority of whom cannot afford Babylon or Sansuk prices. I never understand why saunas (and this includes those in London) don't try to increase  the number of customers by allowing  younger guys in at rock-bottom prices. They'd increase revenue from older guys too, I suspect. No wonder so many have closed here over the past few years.

As far as Babylon is concerned, they offered half-price entry a few years ago when the pool was out of action; the numbers of younger guys ( and I expect older ones, too) this attracted was astonishing. They must have made more money at those prices than when the pool was open. It reminded me of the Golden Years at the old location.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Londoner said:

I'm prepared to pay a higher price if it subsidises younger guys, the majority of whom cannot afford Babylon or Sansuk prices. I never understand why saunas (and this includes those in London) don't try to increase  the number of customers by allowing  younger guys in at rock-bottom prices. They'd increase revenue from older guys too, I suspect. No wonder so many have closed here over the past few years.

As far as Babylon is concerned, they offered half-price entry a few years ago when the pool was out of action; the numbers of younger guys ( and I expect older ones, too) this attracted was astonishing. They must have made more money at those prices than when the pool was open. It reminded me of the Golden Years at the old location.

I agree entirely.

Visit a sauna in London and it's full of old guys, most of whom are also overweight.    I at least want something to look at whilst sat in the Jacuzzi.   Also, this is self reinforcing, as why is a 20 year old going to pay £20 to go to a sauna with loads of obese older guys and no one his own age ?

Visit Sansuk in Pattaya and there are very few young Asians.   So one of the things which attracts farang to Pattaya isn't present in the sauna.   Why is a local youngster going to pay over 200 baht to go in ?      After that, there is very little incentive for the farang to go in, which is why the place is so quiet.

Meanwhile, going to a sauna in Singapore, there were 3 levels of fee, according to age.  On the naked night, it was amazing, with the place packed full of hot talent.    Paying the highest entry fee was very worthwhile.

 

Running a sauna in the era of Grindr is already a challenge.    Management need to be prepared to adapt.

[spoon]

2 hours ago, Londoner said:

I'm prepared to pay a higher price if it subsidises younger guys, the majority of whom cannot afford Babylon or Sansuk prices. I never understand why saunas (and this includes those in London) don't try to increase  the number of customers by allowing  younger guys in at rock-bottom prices. They'd increase revenue from older guys too, I suspect. No wonder so many have closed here over the past few years.

As far as Babylon is concerned, they offered half-price entry a few years ago when the pool was out of action; the numbers of younger guys ( and I expect older ones, too) this attracted was astonishing. They must have made more money at those prices than when the pool was open. It reminded me of the Golden Years at the old location.

I believe some sauna do offer lower prices for younger guys but not everyday, mostly part of a promo, or on a certain day of the week. Not sure which sauna as im not really a sauna goer. Different pricing based on age or nationality seems to be a norm in many places. In some country like japan, some sauna/bar dont allow foreigner at all. In HK, there is also a sauna who refused those who doesnt fit their fit body criteria. No use for us to complaint, just as long as we have alternatives, we can vote with our money and spend it elsewhere.

[Lotusleaf]

I believe Sansuk does charge a lower entry for Thais.   If you look at the sheet the cashier records your entry on there will either be 250 baht or 170 baht written.  Presumably the lower amount for locals or younger guys. 

Whilst Babylon may have closed this does not mean the end of saunas.   I am not aware of a new sauna that opened in 2020 being mentioned on the forum. 

KRUBB - Sukhumvit, BTS Prakanong

krubbbangkok.com

[Londoner]

Sansuk did when it opened. I don't know why it stopped......thirty guys paying 100bht each is better than ten paying 270.

As  z909 says, London saunas are depressing places for us. I'm not sure that I'll ever return, particularly to the one he mentions.... which I recognise.

 

 

[Lotusleaf]

On my visits to Sansuk in recent years and most recently in Feb 2020 the two different figures were recorded on the cashier's sheet. 

[gerefan]

Are readers aware that Sansuk has been closed for about a year?
 

I drove by a few times last winter (January/February 2021) and it was still closed with an awning, which covered the open air areas, blowing in the wind and ripped to shreds. It showed no sign of reopening...ever. 

When  it was last open (summer 2020) the entrance fee was 230 baht and had been the same for a number of years.

As far as I’m aware Babylon is closed permanently and their entrance fee was very similar to Sansuk, maybe a few baht more.

[a-447]

If I were a regular sauna visitor I would not be happy having to pay more because of my age, nationality or whatever.

But from a business point of view it makes perfect sense.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Londoner said:

Sansuk did when it opened. I don't know why it stopped......thirty guys paying 100bht each is better than ten paying 270.

Yes and the 30 guys paying 100 baht make it more likely that I will pay my 270 baht, as there might be something to look at.  

 

1 hour ago, gerefan said:

Are readers aware that Sansuk has been closed for about a year?

I'm naturally aware that it has been closed, having walked past there many times, as it's a nice little route back from the beach.   I'd assumed it would have to close whilst covid restrictions are in place and there are few tourists.   

If it has closed permanently, that would be something I hadn't heard.    Although not a surprise.    The business model needs modification.