Thailand's History and Culture: Why Gayness Remains a Stigma for Many

[spoon]

I can say from my observation, not much diff between say 20 years back than now. Shiah has always been banned, but i believed they are back by iran not saudi. Wahabi is new simply because it is also a new faction heavily backed by saudi. But these two, like u mention is minority, and hardly an issue with majority of us. I cant say we are moving in any direction with regards of our goverment stand with islam. The legal system has always been that sharia law is below the civil system, and cannot have laws that contradicts the civil system. 

4 hours ago, PeterRS said:

Thanks @spoon. Sorry I was not specific. I was more interested in what i have felt is a gradual return to religious fundamentalism in Malaysia than in attitudes to gay sex. From visiting the country and reading both local and international media, it seems to me that Islam has become more fundamentalist over the last 40 years. Four years ago the United Nations Commission on International Religious Freedom reported that in the Malaysian context "it seems the brand of Islamism in Malaysia is prohibitive and restrictive, bordering on extremism." There also seems to be a growing rift between majority Sunni and the tiny minority of Shi'ite observers. I read that Shi'ism is banned and exists largely as a result of Saudi funding.  In recent years the stricter Saudi version of Wahhabism has started to take root.

And if Islam has in some areas become more extreme, I assume that bans on homosexual behaviour may also be becoming more enforced. Just thoughts.

 

[Guest]

19 hours ago, reader said:

I don't reject the idea that discrimination--of all kinds--is deeply rooted in Thai culture as it is the culture of many other nations. But I don't believe that it can't change and evolve.

We can find anecdotal evidence to support either side of the argument I suppose but I prefer to view the glass half full. I agree that many of the young people will go on to adopt norms similar to that of their parents but others will go on to reject them. Cultural is fluid over time and not set in stone.

Agreed.   Culture and lifestyle evolves over time.   What is acceptable in one era might not be acceptable a couple of decades later.   

Some of the cultural evolution is positive and some negative.   

 

 

[reader]

8 hours ago, PeterRS said:

I also believe it is wrong to link an easing of sexual views and restrictions with political reform. With the greatest respect, I feel this is more of a western concept than an Asian one........Why is it that since then Thailand has had more military coups than any other country on the planet - 13 successful ones and 9 unsuccessful ones? A "coup culture" is becoming almost as ingrained as homophobia! Can students overturn this? Is there a general view amongst the country's students that change must come? Will students, like their counterparts in France in 1968, lead a general movement that includes strikes,  occupations of factories and government offices in order to achieve change in Thailand? I fear not.

I agree on much of the history but we diverge as we look forward. The fact that 19 coups have occurred tells us that they still haven't got it right yet: the "have" minority still continues to dominate the political scene.

And I continue to believe that nothing that occurs in regards to changing a system of government is free of politics. Culture and religion may be factors--important factors--but they are also political in their very nature. When you seek to alter a government due to religion or culture, politics always infringes.

Looking west, I was encouraged that the gay community in Warsaw managed to overcome strong cultural, religious and political opposition and held a Gay Pride march this past week. That it came when Poland is embroiled in a controversial law that demonizes homosexuals demonstrates the tenacity and power of resistance. 

[Vessey]

Thanks for the interesting topic PeterRS, and for attempting to translate the labyrinthine language of the Jackson articles into meaningful English haha. (The mantra that I always held in my head when writing academic articles, was that if your ideas are sound, you should be capable of communicating them in a way that the average person can understand. All too often some academics seemingly write in highly complex language to impress and 'black cat' their fellow academics haha.)

If I have understood correctly, he is observing on sexual relationships within Thai communities and changing (or not) attitudes towards them across different levels of Thai society?

So a few observations if I may: 

 - As Westerners visiting Thailand our natural instinct is to view things  through the eyes of our own cultural values, often  without sufficient understanding or appreciation of the differing cultural values of the Thai people.

- As I understand it, Thai prostitution with farang is dwarfed by the levels of Thai on Thai prostitution. Many boys on Facebook and Twitter, for example, write in THai with pictures and rates to attract fellow Thai rather than farang.

- Indeed Thai may hold a different perspective on prostitution with farang?  Parents man not be enthralled by the prospect of their sons and daughters selling themselves to farang, but the rewards are often high and money flows back to the family. I have heard it excused as a lucrative form of employment, selling themselves to farang customers.

 

Not only am I only gay, or at least bisexual, in Thailand, but not at my very conventional home village, my long, long time is from Laos and he also feels the need to appear 'straight' back in his home and confine his (voraciously) gay appetite to Pattaya. 

Funny old world! haha. 

 

 

 

[JackR]

Thanks for this post.

It's also interesting to consider, in the west, the link between a society's changing attitude to homosexuality and the prevalance and nature of gay prostitution. The creation of the "identity" of the homosexual, and its constant discussion in western society has seemingly reduced the amount of casual gay-for-pay male prostitution.

I'm reading a book currently about the sex lives of authors in the 1940s/1950s. There seemed to be a steady stream of young soldiers, sailors and street hustlers in major U.S., UK and European cities who were willing to offer serices for a quick buck, which does not seem to exist any more.

We can largely put this down to poverty at that time. However, another aspect, I suspect, is that these young "straight" men were also less inclined to gloomily deliberate about their sexuality because its not something that was generally known or discussed in every day life.

The subsequent promotion of gay rights in following decades inadvertently created fairly rigid definitions of straight and gay. Today in U.S. and western europe, poverty still exists. But we would rarely see a poor western boy REDUCE himself to escorting. Because that would be "gay." And secondly, gay men themselves are now less likely to seek undergound paid sex, than during a time when homosexuality was literally outlawed.

It would be simplistic of me to view Thailand through this same lens, but I wouldn't be surprised that the broader promotion and acceptance of gay rights actually reduces the prevalance of a gay prostitution scene over time. This has probably already begun.

[Londoner]

I wonder how much gay sex is practised in rural areas?  Is it to be assumed that a gay man, wishing to express his sexuality, has to travel to Chiang Mai or Bangkok?   

I ask this question because of a friend of my boyfriend, in Kamphaeng Phaet, was recently diagnosed with hiv+. I was astonished.  

P blamed the guy's  infection on his interest in cruising toilets- specifically those attached to petrol stations.  He says that there are very, very few local guys (that is, within thirty kms ) on Romeo or Hornet.  And so, presumably,  other avenues are explored. It sounds rather like 1950s Britain.

I should add that P told me that his first experience was with a schoolfriend when he was eighteen and that his nephew, who is also eighteen, has just "come out" without, as far as he knows, facing opposition in his family. I suppose it helps having a gay uncle! 

[PeterRS]

2 hours ago, Londoner said:

I wonder how much gay sex is practised in rural areas?

I am sorry I cannot answer your question. I can only assume though there has to be quite a lot of gay sex around all the towns and villages. Several organisations sprang up in the late 1980s and 1990s to take the message about HIV prevention and condom use around the country. Before I was partnered six years ago I travelled quite a bit around the country and had no difficulty finding attractive guys in places like Udon Thani, Ubon Ratchathani, Maha Sarakham, Korat, Khon Kaen etc. Also, surely if he is looking at sites like Hornet and Romeo he is going to see mostly farang? I understand there are several Thai only sites in Thai and these must be pretty active.

But another issue that has to be considered, sadly, is familial incest. I have a friend from Chiang Rai who was molested quite a few times by his uncle when he was 14 and 15. He only found out when he came to Bangkok to study at the flight academy. He passed all his exams with 'flying' (sorry) colours and spent secondments with two airlines at BKK working in passenger services. His dream was always to work with an airline. But he then discovered the qualifications for every airline said "HIV neg essential". Odd that this was not a problem during his training. He ended up working on the front desk of a major hotel. He is paid well but his heart is not in it. He still has hopes that he will be able to work with an airline eventually.

[pong2]

Thanks, I have (or had? moved home some 2 yrs ago and had to do away a lot of heavy books) of mr. Jackson and some others too. Long time ago now that I read them. There are some other such studies too. They are shortened and summarised in the old TMOT=The Men of Thailand books too.

The question re rural ´gay´ness is for me quite simple: do not forget, you probably still know it from your own childhood-there is and certainly was a very strict separation between the boys & the girls with of course the girls most heavily protected. Thus the boys did what they do in about any society-in TH from 14/15 old: do some experimentation together. Without even thinking or assuming self identity as gay or whatever. For the average Thai a gay simply means a bottom.

And untill 19th century: well if you ´ve seen the pictures you must have noted-as is still mostly the case today, that most younger Thai girls/women hardly have ´breasts´. in the way westerners see it.

For me one major reason why there seems to be less and less Thi younger gay persons is simply demography: TH is ageing fast and rapidly and the nr of such guys is diminishing by the day. Which is (not yet) the case in Cambodia or Phima=Burma=Myanmar

[vinapu]

5 hours ago, Londoner said:

...has just "come out" without, as far as he knows, facing opposition in his family. I suppose it helps having a gay uncle! 

that for sure helps as nothing helps to fight prejudice than contact with live example. I could see it at home when gay couple moved in to our building, rolling eyes in the beginning fast become complete acceptance and non issue. 

[Londoner]

One thing that I found surprising is that P's school (this was in late 90s) held ladyboy competitions, not unlike those that used to be held in Pattaya. I suppose this merely goes to show (as I suggested earlier) that a clearly defined Third Sex was more acceptable than  what we think of as gay sexuality.

[PeterRS]

18 hours ago, pong2 said:

For me one major reason why there seems to be less and less Thi younger gay persons is simply demography: TH is ageing fast and rapidly and the nr of such guys is diminishing by the day. Which is (not yet) the case in Cambodia or Phima=Burma=Myanmar

I'm not wholly convinced that the falling birth date can be considered a reason for a reduction in the number of Thai gay boys and those working in the bars. As this chart shows, the Thai birth rate has been relatively constant over the last 20 years. I reckon most boys in the bars would traditionally have been in the 18 - 25 range. So today that would mean boys born between around 1996 and 2003. There was certainly a largish dip between about 1996 and 2001 but not markedly so since then. What the chart might reveal is the reason for so many Thai boys working in the bar scene in the 1980s and early 1990s. 

An even more obvious reason IMHO would surely be the campaigns run by the government in the 1970s and 1980s to discourage parents from having too many children. The birthrate in 1970 was totally unsustainable and had to be brought down. Mechai Viravaidya took it on himself to devise ways to make birth control acceptable throughout the country. He popularised the use of condoms with events like condom blowing contests to the extent that they became known as "mechais", and made oral contraceptives available without a physician being involved in the transaction. I am sure many readers have been to his restaurant Cabbages and Condoms in Sukhumvit Soi 12.

Perhaps Mechai was too successful. But as the chart shows, birthrates have fallen dramatically over the entire region, although it is true that they have not fallen as much in neighbouring countries, even rising in Vietnam.

[sydneyboy1]

On 6/24/2021 at 12:30 PM, lotus123 said:

I'll go there. Yes, Thais seem to me to accept transgenderism more than homosexuality. My unscientific theory is that it's because kathoey conform to a traditional gender presentation/role even if it's the "wrong" one in relation to the sex they were born into.  

The first (excellent) post that started this thread provides a clue. In the 19 th  century Thai men and women were naked from the waist up in public and it was difficult to tell men from women, although I would have thought one part of the female anatomy would have given them away. Perhaps this “difficult to differentiate “ would explain the latter day acceptance of trans people. Just a thought.

[Guest]

On 6/27/2021 at 6:00 AM, PeterRS said:

I'm not wholly convinced that the falling birth date can be considered a reason for a reduction in the number of Thai gay boys and those working in the bars. As this chart shows, the Thai birth rate has been relatively constant over the last 20 years. I reckon most boys in the bars would traditionally have been in the 18 - 25 range. So today that would mean boys born between around 1996 and 2003.

I think it is one of the factors.   

Today's bar boys will be approximately from around 2000, so birth rate 1.7.

Those of 2011 would be from around 1990, so birth rate 2.1

And 2001 would be of 1980 vintage, so birth rate 3.4.

That's halved in 20 years !     I chose an age 21 for convenience in reading the graphs, but if the age is increased, the decline is even more pronounced.

 

Additional factors reducing the number of Thais in bars probably include more alternative employment opportunities these days and increasing rates of obesity in the younger generations.    Hence the slack has been taken up by people from Cambodia & Laos.

 

[Londoner]

I'm becoming something of a boor on this subject but I must allude again to the highly-successful campaign to encourage the use of condoms, with a corresponding drop in birth rate in the 90s. I suspect that  perhaps the improvements in living -standards under  Thaksin twenty plus years ago  played their part. 

[CurtisD]

On 6/26/2021 at 10:29 AM, Londoner said:

One thing that I found surprising is that P's school (this was in late 90s) held ladyboy competitions, not unlike those that used to be held in Pattaya. I suppose this merely goes to show (as I suggested earlier) that a clearly defined Third Sex was more acceptable than  what we think of as gay sexuality.

From the wisdom of Colonel Vikorn (to whom I defer completely ).  John Burdett's Bangkok Tattoo p31

 

[Londoner]

Thanks for reminding me....I loved those books. I read the first two in the series but I see that there are more which I've now ordered, thanks to you! 

[reader]

Burdett’s Bangkok series encompasses six books over a dozen years. If I had to pick two must reads, it would be the bookends: Bangkok 8 and The Bangkok Asset. But I found all of these gems good reads that offer much insight into prostitution, Buddhism and corruption, Thai style.

Although I agree with CurtisD on the wisdom of Col. Vikorn when it comes to matters of prostitution, it’s noteworthy that the protagonist of the series, Detective Sonchai Jitpleecheep acknowledges that his most significant other is fellow cop and boyhood pal, Pichai, who we come know in the first few pages of Bangkok 8.  Sadly, Picahi meets an untimely death in the line of duty and our detective makes no qualms about his intense emotions for the young man:

“I roll a fat spliff, light up, inhale heartily. Now all of a sudden, I’m distilling grief. I’m ripping off every Band-Aid, I’m daring to bleed, and I’m concentrating the pain (Buddha, how I loved that boy!) I don’t want relief, I want him. With my agony carefully located right between my yes, I take another toke, hold it as long as I can, repeat the process. I don’t want enlightenment, I want him. Sorry, Buddha, I loved him more than you.”

These are books I've reread many times. You can read more about the series, and other Burdett novels at the link below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Burdett#The_Sonchai_Jitpleecheep_Series

Lucky has also recently posted about the Burdett novels.