Bangkok Pride: Meet LGBTQ+ who lead the way for equality in Thailand

[TotallyOz]

Thailand is widely viewed as an LGBTQ+-friendly nation. But there are very real challenges for the LGBTQ+ community beneath the surface. Official support has been mixed, with the government promoting and capitalizing on LGBTQ+ tourism yet still not recognizing same-sex marriages. Even Pride Month, born to pay tribute to the 1969 Stonewall riots each June, has lost some of its original intent between rainbow-washing and tokenism.

https://coconuts.co/bangkok/features/bangkok-pride-meet-lgbtq-who-lead-the-way-for-equality-in-thailand/

This was a very interesting article.

[PeterRS]

I cannot help feeling that article hardly represents the views of anything like a majority of Thais. For a start, the professions of the respondents - with one exception - are hardly representative of the community as a whole. The one exception is the student. I am delighted that he is finding more openly gay colleagues attending events for, as he says, the future is in their hands.

I would like to have seen the views of at least two gay Thai professionals. Even as an expatriate with various Thai friends who has lived and worked here over many years, I know that Thai society as a whole remains extremely conservative. Most families are accepting when told their sones or daughters are gay. But there is ends. Many professional gay Thai men (and I assume women as well) will not dare tell their colleagues about their sexuality. They know only too well that this can affect their prospects for promotion. The business community is far less accepting. 

As some of the respondents point out, education about the LGBT community and lifestyles will no doubt help. It seems certain that existing views too often hold inaccurate and unfortunate conclusions - traditional customs, greater exposure to AIDS, ladyboy tendencies etc. 

I dislike even suggesting this but I believe gay community leaders here are partly to blame. I can't help looking at Taiwan where it was gay individuals who led the movement to change views among the general population, views that were generally homophobic. Progress was slow and steady and it started at a time when there were very few gay venues and places for gays to meet. Even the annual gay pride parade was started by individuals intent on getting across simple messages each year. Now of course it is a massive event with close to 200,000 attending the annual Gay Pride March.

Around the turn of the millennium, Bangkok did have its own Gay Pride March. Even though the aim of the organisers was no doubt laudable, it really was a farce. I say that because it was organised by the gay business community. So those who took part were the boys and lady boys who worked in the bars and spas. It was way over the top for a city like Bangkok and drew few spectators. Certainly I think not many more than a handful of non commercial gays took part. Not surprisingly it died after a few years. For the gay movement develop here it cannot be led by the commercial venues.

[TotallyOz]

I have wondered if it was time for the gay community to have another gay pride march and celebration. It has been in my plans to help organize this last year but due to Covid, I did not. The older I get, the less inclined I am to do things like this. But, I do think there are many younger groups of students who are true advocates and interested in bringing these issues out for the masses.

I have met many Thai guys, not moneyboys, but just professional gay guys, and they all say the same thing and that is their family is very conservative. I would love to see this changed, even if slowly, in my lifetime.

[vinapu]

1 hour ago, TotallyOz said:

 

 I would love to see this changed, even if slowly, in my lifetime.

such fundamental cultural changes can only be introduced slowly. Moving things too fast risks societal  backlash.

Look at abortion rights, 50 years after Roe/ Wade it's still not a such sure thing and movements to restrict it are alive and kicking.

[PeterRS]

Sadly I cannot see any Gay Pride March working in Bangkok. You may remember one had to be abandoned in Chiang Mai in 2009 after it had actually started, as a result of harassment from about 200 protestors holding placards claiming that the event was against Thai culture. Any Pride March will require approvals from several authorities and roads will either have to be closed or, as with the past Bangkok Parades, half closed off. But if you cannot get members of most sectors of the Thai gay community to take part including those attending the hi-so nightclubs in the Thonglor area and it is left as before just to the commercial venues, I'd say it would be a total waste of time.

3 minutes ago, vinapu said:

such fundamental cultural changes can only be introduced slowly. Moving things too fast risks societal  backlash.

I'm not sure i agree about moving too fast. As I mentioned, Taiwan had an equally conservative society following the end of Martial Law in 1987. At that time there were no gay venues. Bangkok, on the other hand, had quite a thriving gay culture in 1987 and many of those who attended the bars and gogo bars were Thais. Thailand was certainly ahead of Taiwan in terms of gay recognition. The difference, as I suggested in my earlier post, is that Taiwan had a dedicated band of professionals, blue-collar workers and students determined to lead a movement towards acceptance. It was a dedicated group movement intent on dialogue and discussion - not confrontation - that soon extended beyond Taipei to most of the other major cities. Thailand has occasionally had individuals like Khun Natee Teerarojianapong leading gay rights movements, but he has never had more than token backup The present student movements that are promoting gay rights remain small and fragmented, as far as I can see. Also, I seriously doubt if students can effect change on their  own. And remember, once they graduate, many will get caught up in Thailand's much more homophobic business environment.

[vinapu]

18 minutes ago, PeterRS said:

 

I'm not sure I agree about moving too fast. As I mentioned, Taiwan had an equally conservative society.......

those things will vary greatly  depending of cultural norms of society , varied from country to country. Other issue is political environment.

Gay friendly government , popular for other reason may  find implementing changes easy to little resistance . On another hand popular but gay unfriendly may find easy to curtail rights already obtained not to mention stop any progress. I think it was easier to be gay in Russia or Poland 20 years ago then it's now. In 20 years we may see Taiwan homophobic and Saudi Arabia gay friendly. 

 

[reader]

I believe that there's an expectation within hi-so Thai society that they should maintain conservative and traditional values. But I also think that's as much--if not more--a political expression as it is a moral one. And it's hardened more in the last generation because the wealthy classes feel a need to be more cohesive in the face of rising dissatisfaction from the working class who aren't as willing to accept the growing gap in wealth distribution.

As you get outside the major cities of Bangkok and Chiang Mai, traditional values are a bit different, particularly in the agrarian north east. The most important is loyalty to family and friends. Few among the working classes have investment portfolios to cushion their retirements. They are comforted by the fact that their children won't forget them and that they will always have a place to live. And if their son or daughter turns out to be gay, it's not threatening because they're not subject to high society norms.

As to whether Bangkok should again have a pride parade, I agree the decision--and responsibility--should be driven by the gay community and supported by the business community (and not just the bars and gay clubs). That's how I think it survives so well in Taipei (see final photo below).

I've only been in bkk for one pride parade, 2006 (second photo). But I recall that there was a strong turnout, as there appears to have been in the first pride parade (top photo).

 

[PeterRS]

Just for information, according to the article below 2006 was the last of the series of annual marches. I am certain i watched one 2 or 3 years earlier. My memory may be playing tricks but from where I was standing I recall few spectators and a rather thin group of participants. Certainly the first two of @reader's pics show very few participants even though they are just snapshots of small sections of the Parades. In Taipei within those spaces would be dozens of marchers, many not necessarily dressed up. 

Still, that's all in the past. The major point as far as I am concerned was that the girls and boys who took part were not the average gay men and women in Thailand as in Taipei and other Taiwanese cities. Like Taiwan, the much smaller annual Parades in Tokyo and Hong Kong regularly feature just ordinary folk. Same is true at Singapore's Pink Dot where many of the younger LGBT community bring not only their parents but also their whole families including young children. Thailand always featured mostly professional guys and gals from the bars.

The article adds that a Pride March was planned for May 20 in 2017 but was postponed to November due to the mourning period for the late King. It had been hoped to hold it on Silom but permission was was denied. Then for reasons that I have never seen explained, that March never actually happened. I think that was a pity because it was to have been the first not organised primarily by the commercial gay venues.

https://www.khaosodenglish.com/life/events/2017/01/13/11-years-pride-parade-step-bangkok/

I still believe that no March here in Bangkok has a chance of being successful unless it can attract as marchers far more ordinary Thais. Clearly there is now a much greater awareness of LGBT issues amongst students and that is one group that I believe would now become part of a March. But I still see no chance of getting attendance by anyone working in the business community. And this is sad because Taiwan not only has many guys from that community, several major firms like Citibank not only support the Parade they have their banners proudly displayed during the March (see photo). Singapore also has a lot of support from local firms. It used to have considerable support from international firms based in the city state until the government banned foreign participation about 3 years ago.

In fact, given that the Pink Dot idea has caught on in various parts of the world, I am starting to think a Bangkok Pink Dot held in a park would be a lot more effective than a March. Those participating could have a better cloak of anonymity, And the photos from the sky with Bangkok's skyscrapers in the background would be in many world newspapers, just as Pink Dot has been several times. It makes for a really powerful statement.

Singapore Pink Dot - photo The New Paper

[fedssocr]

it will need to be the Thais organizing things. Wasn't the old BKK pride largely organized by foreigners? 

I saw on a popular Twitter account yesterday that some one placed a pride flag on a prominent statue of a certain person in Bangkok. It's a shame that that person's sexual orientation has been swept under the rug for all of these years. Thailand is a complicated place (as most places are). 

It seems like GLBT rights are two steps forward, one step back. Certainly visibility is higher than ever. And younger generations see being gay as much less of a big deal in most of the world. Hopefully they'll keep those attitudes as they age and take over from the current dinosaurs and demagogues. 

[PeterRS]

1 hour ago, fedssocr said:

it will need to be the Thais organizing things. Wasn't the old BKK pride largely organized by foreigners? 

I saw on a popular Twitter account yesterday that some one placed a pride flag on a prominent statue of a certain person in Bangkok. It's a shame that that person's sexual orientation has been swept under the rug for all of these years. Thailand is a complicated place (as most places are). 

Yes, the old Pride Parades were organised mostly by foreigners. That was another part of the problem.

I am not sure who that prominent person might be. But it was known to all in the country for decades that Prime Minister General Prem Tinsulanonda (from 1980 - 1988) and thereafter Head of the Privy Council was gay. He had been picked by the King to be Prime Minster and the two remained close until the King's death. It was alleged at the time that he gave up the Premiership when a newspaper threatened to out him as gay. Prem died two years ago aged 98.

[reader]

Whether I see strong turnouts where PeterRS sees few in the pics I posted is wholly subjective and in the eyes of the beholder. Everyone can judge for themselves. But I agree with him on the point that a successful demonstration of gay pride is, and should be, in the hands of those who are (1) gay and (2) choose to put their preference on display for all to see.

I don't find it surprising that those spokespersons featured in the OP were not your average Bangkok gay man or woman. As in all efforts to end repression--regardless of type--it's radicals who get the ball rolling. Their views may appear out of the mainstream or even extreme, but without them progress wouldn't happen.

The annual White Party could be cited as a sort of substitute by some. It may be a well-attended commercial event but it's actually far from a gay pride parade where any and all can march down Silom without having to buy a ticket. Pride parades are opportunities for the hi-so's to march side by side with the proletariat along with and their supporters as one body.

It's the unity that makes all the difference.

[anddy]

it's worth noting in this context that gay rights activists and supporting folks piggybacked on the youth's democracy and reform movement last year and had contingent at the rallies and had lists of political demands of their own. I saw that as a good thing. 

I find @PeterRS suggestion to have a pink dot-like event in a park rather than a march rather appealing. It would still have visibility and also a more relaxed, festive vibe enabling way more interaction between participants and the public. A march is just a march, that can be watched as a spectacle but that's about it. 

10 hours ago, fedssocr said:

pride flag on a prominent statue of a certain person in Bangkok

I also wonder who that is.... A precise location of the statue would enable to find out without violation board rules (which I'm sure is the reason for not naming the person, being from a certain family)

[vinapu]

17 minutes ago, anddy said:

 

I also wonder who that is.... A precise location of the statue would enable to find out without violation board rules (which I'm sure is the reason for not naming the person, being from a certain family)

I'm pretty sure you can see that statue from BTS train approaching Sala Daeng station on it's way from Siam 

[fedssocr]

58 minutes ago, vinapu said:

I'm pretty sure you can see that statue from BTS train approaching Sala Daeng station on it's way from Siam 

exactly

[PeterRS]

17 hours ago, reader said:

Whether I see strong turnouts where PeterRS sees few in the pics I posted is wholly subjective and in the eyes of the beholder. Everyone can judge for themselves. But I agree with him on the point that a successful demonstration of gay pride is, and should be, in the hands of those who are (1) gay and (2) choose to put their preference on display for all to see.

I was perhaps wrong to make the comparison. Whilst Taipei has huge numbers attending and often any photograph will incorporate  many dozens of marchers, I have certainly seen, shall I say, stragglers near the end where any photo would only include a few. So, yes, it is a subjective comment.

To the list of two qualifications, I would also add that a large majority of the organisers must be Thai - and not merely students. There will be a lot of bureaucracy to get through for liaison with the Bangkok Metropolitan Authority on things like permits, police approvals and so on. That requires at least one person with an understanding of diplomacy and some degree of knowledge of how that gets done - no doubt quietly and behind the scenes if it is to be successful.

I have often wondered why Thailand's attitude to sex changed quite dramatically during the 20th century. It seems to have been a very free and easy country in the 19th century. One visiting American in the 1880s was "shocked almost beyond endurance at the nudity of the people." adding "not until Siam is clothed need she expect a place among the respectable, civilised nations." Another visitor around this time, a British school inspector J. G. D. Campbell was horrified at men's sexual behaviour. He put it down to the climate. "In the hot regions of the earth, sensual indulgence is far more prevalent!" These two upholders of western morality were no doubt referring to the habit of Thai ladies not to wear tops and to the frequency of heterosexual sex rather than gay sex. But there are written accounts that gay sex was certainly practised even at Court and by at least one Supreme Patriarch.

As attitudes to sexuality changed, at some point a law was introduced making sodomy a crime, suggesting that there was at the highest level an attempt, at the very least, actively to discourage homosexuality. Even when that law was repealed in 1956, for several years the media ran a very public campaign to out known homosexuals. I suspect it was probably around this time that public attitudes towards homosexuality as a whole began to change radically.

As for government actions/inactions, the Human Rights Foundation published an interesting paper in 2015. Among its findings, the Thai government has failed to -

1. implement laws prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity in all areas of public life;

2. protect LGBTI people against widespread discrimination in employment, thereby affecting their right to work and their right to emjoyment of just and favourable working conditions

3. take measures to reduce discrimination against LGBTI people in the health care system

4. protect LGBTI students against widespread bullying and harassment in the education system, thereby affecting their right to the highest attainable standard of physical and mental health.

https://tbinternet.ohchr.org/Treaties/CESCR/Shared Documents/THA/INT_CESCR_CSS_THA_20028_E.pdf

Given the above, it seems clear that organising any major gay Pride event will face a great many hurdles.

[reader]

The BBC Witness History program today aired this look back at the roots of efforts to establish gay liberation. Not surprisingly, it was exasperation with years of repression that became the tipping point that launched the campaign.

From BBC Radio

How a protest outside New York's Stonewall Inn inspired the modern gay rights movement.

Listen at this link:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/w3ct1x0y

[anddy]

22 hours ago, vinapu said:

I'm pretty sure you can see that statue from BTS train approaching Sala Daeng station on it's way from Siam 

shit to late now, I rarely ever ride the BTS, but today happened to and I came that way on the BTS just hours ago, before reading this post. But it's virtually certain the flag didn't last there long anyway.

[TotallyOz]

I enjoyed this article centering on one activist. It also goes into some detail about the gay pride parade in Chiang Mai.

https://coconuts.co/bangkok/lifestyle/queer-activists-quest-to-open-thai-monkhood-provokes-passions-and-sometimes-outrage/

[PeterRS]

In this and another thread I have ben promoting a sometimes unpopular view about Thai society and its views on gays in particular. I think Khun Sirisakposh makes an important point when he says -
"Gender discrimination is deeply entrenched in Thai society, and it’s so subtle that people don’t usually see it."

[Patanawet]

Peter, have you considered looking closely into the background of the final Bangkok Pride a few years ago?

You might find some explanations there as to why there have been no more.  No rumour mongers please.

 

[PeterRS]

18 hours ago, Patanawet said:

Peter, have you considered looking closely into the background of the final Bangkok Pride a few years ago?

You might find some explanations there as to why there have been no more.  No rumour mongers please.

From what I have read, Bangkok's Pride Parade which had taken place for several years died in 2006 largely because of disagreements between the organisers and arguments amongst the mostly farang-owned gay businesses which had traditionally provided its financing. That year it attracted quite a large crowd of onlookers but I suspect this was partly due to the fact that it was held on the same day as the annual Loy Krathong Festival, one of Thailand's most loved events which attracts a lot of tourists.

A very small Parade was held last year but the route was only between Sam Yan and Silom. That is an extremely short distance which you can walk slowly in not much more than 20 minutes. In Taipei the March lasts around 3 hours. By the time last year's Bangkok March reached Silom, numbers had reached between 1,000 and 2,000 depending on which news media you read (Reuters quotes the smaller number).

However, let's be very frank. That was not a Gay Pride March celebrating gayness. Although it started out with some political objectives by calling for greater democracy and equal rights, it was infiltrated by others demanding the resignation of the Prime Minister and a reform of the monarchy.  Any group of people with some calling for the latter two objectives was in my view ultra stupid. For what should have been a celebration of being gay, that other group used gayness for non-gay political purposes and therefore seriously diluted the primary message which I suggest should have been equality. If anyone doubts that, guess what the media coverage highlighted?

Taipei's annual March has always has a simple social message - but just one message that all in society can relate to. Occasionally it has incorporated a simple political message but it has never aimed to divide, only encourage. Also being frank, the enormous success of that March - and later the other Pride marches held in other Taiwan cities - unquestionably played a key part in the result that Taiwan is the only country where gay marriage is now on the statue books. 

Many in last year's Bangkok marchers wanted political reforms. That should have been a totally separate March in my view.

[reader]

I would also prefer that a gay pride demonstration focus on equality. Unfortunately, given deepening social and political divisions, holding events aimed at altering public opinion of any kind would be impossible without politics creeping into the message. When you consider the polarized views on constitutional reform and the growing dissatisfaction with how the government is handling the Covid crisis, there's not much room for light.

Taipei has a different social order. Although there remains political divisions among the citizenry, a certain cohesiveness exits because of the common foe across the Taiwan Strait. And the distribution of wealth is not extreme as it is in Thailand. In an atmosphere like this, it's a lot easier to celebrate equality without having to compete with other issues that could subvert the main intent.

[PeterRS]

1 hour ago, reader said:

Taipei has a different social order. Although there remains political divisions among the citizenry, a certain cohesiveness exits because of the common foe across the Taiwan Strait. And the distribution of wealth is not extreme as it is in Thailand. In an atmosphere like this, it's a lot easier to celebrate equality without having to compete with other issues that could subvert the main intent.

Taiwan is of course different. But, with respect, I think you forget that Taiwan was a very poor island under a repressive authoritarian military dictatorship for 40 years until 1987. During this period and for 15 years beforehand Thailand was supposed to be a representative democracy.

Chiang Kai-shek did not believe in elections. He believed firmly in Confucianism and rule from the top. Politics was a matter for the elite, not the average citizen. Only three parties were permitted in elections - his own island-wide Kuomintang and two far smaller ones. Although Chiang's son introduced democracy. Chiang Ching-kuo was of almost the same mind as his father. The difference was that he understood the shifting international ground re Taiwan's position in the world. Even after introducing democracy, he all but ensured that Chiang Kai-shek's Kuomintang Party won elections and kept winning them. His major contribution was ensuring a greater social and economic freedom which the Taiwanese grabbed with all hands. The KMT finally lost power in the 2000 elections but regained it in 2008 after major corruption scandals rocked the Democratic Party.

It was Sun Yet-sen who tried to introduce democracy in China following the overthrow of the Imperial system. That failed, but his teachings found their way to post War Taiwan and all children are taught them in school. But it seems unlikely these would have had much effect without the massive economic advances made after the elder Chiang's death. Taiwan's economic growth was nothing short of spectacular. As @reader points out, the distribution of wealth was spread wide thereby generating a national cohesiveness which enabled democratic institutions to be established and reinforced. Taiwan's population gave the government, even though it was the KMT, credit for making the economic miracle happen. Taiwan's GDP in 1952 was $1.33 billion. By the year 2000 it had risen to $330 billion! By then, though, cohesiveness was not a result of issues with mainland China, for Taiwan companies had been increasingly investing in China where it employed huge numbers of Chinese citizens. China was far too busy with building its own economy. It is only very recently that the Taiwan issue has once again come to the forefront.

If there is a lesson from Taiwan, it is surely that Asian countries need to develop economic growth and ensure this trickles down throughout the population before spending time on developing democratic institutions - especially in a country like Thailand where extensive corruption is endemic throughout the country. Thailand has had in effect only one decade of major economic growth - from 1986 to 1996 when annual GDP increases averaged 9%. Thereafter corny capitalism and corruption resulted in the Asian Economic Crisis starting in Thailand and putting the entire country back well over a decade. And then came the 2008 finical meltdown affecting most of the world. 

The dilemma for Thailand is therefore: how to get rid of corruption and ensure not just clean government but one that has the interests of the entire nation at its core.  That will in itself bring greater equality. But how you achieve that, given the country's history, I have not the faintest idea. I believe it only has a chance when the country develops leaders who themselves are neither kleptomaniacs nor crony capitalists like almost all who have risen to the top of the tree in recent decades.

[reader]

2 hours ago, PeterRS said:

The dilemma for Thailand is therefore: how to get rid of corruption and ensure not just clean government but one that has the interests of the entire nation at its core.  That will in itself bring greater equality. But how you achieve that, given the country's history, I have not the faintest idea. I believe it only has a chance when the country develops leaders who themselves are neither kleptomaniacs nor crony capitalists like almost all who have risen to the top of the tree in recent decades.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that observation. However, I inclined to point out a flaw in the following rationale:

2 hours ago, PeterRS said:

If there is a lesson from Taiwan, it is surely that Asian countries need to develop economic growth and ensure this trickles down throughout the population before spending time on developing democratic institutions - especially in a country like Thailand where extensive corruption is endemic throughout the country

Thinking that enlightened leadership will somehow emerge out of the current undemocratic morass that exists only to perpetuate rule by a small minority of the economically privileged is leaving a hell of a lot to luck. If I had to choose, I'll always opt for the will of all the people to vote for their leaders. It may not guarantee enlightened leaders, but at least it allows the less privileged to have their say in the matter.

Otherwise, you assume that commoners are unfit to make weighty decisions that are now being made almost exclusively by hi-so elites concentrated in Bangkok and Chiang Mai.

Most of us come to Thailand to spend some quality time with guys, almost all of whom come from lower economic backgrounds. I'm not comfortable with the idea that they may make great partners in bed but can't be trusted to vote for whom they choose. They're not stupid. They can't possibly do any worse than the current crew that rules the roost.

[Guest]

Looking over all countries and all of history, I suspect the majority of leaders probably had some unsatisfactory behaviour.

The population of European countries fought hard over centuries to limit the power of leaders and install democracy.  Sometimes with gradual steps, sometimes with revolutions.   Occasionally these freedoms were tested by wars, or periods of dictatorship.  Sometimes things go backwards.

Sometimes European systems were exported, particularly to North America or Australasia.   Then the US has taken up the baton and imposed a democracy upon Japan.   There has been less success trying to do this in Iraq or Libya.   

Many of us enjoy freedoms fought for by our ancestors.     There are many routes to that freedom and the transition can be very painful.   Just look at what has happened in certain countries, including the largest of them and how unpleasant it has been for a century or more.