Babylon closed?

[siriusBE]

http://www.babylonbangkok.com  does not respond. Is Babylon closed? That would be extremely sad

[PeterRS]

It is certainly closed at present. Rumours about its permanent closure have been circulating on Thai gay forums since last summer. Almost all posts state that it is definitely closed and will not reopen. Others point to a Facebook notice that it is temporarily closed. The consensus certainly is that it will not reopen.

It seems the Babylon premises sit on a considerably larger plot of land owned by two rich brothers. From what I have been told, one wants to sell up and move to Chiang Mai. The other wishes to stay. Whatever the truth, that land area is amongst the most expensive in Bangkok. A developer would pay a small fortune to get access to it and put up a multi storey condominium block like the 41-floor Sukhothai Residences just across the soi. When that went up about ten years or so ago, the apartments were the most expensive in the city.

The Babylon premises were never intended to make a profit. Entrance fees only covered staff and upkeep costs. So it is highly unlikely that anyone would be interested in buying it and keeping it as a sauna were it to become available as a separate entity from the rest of the surrounding land. The sauna is surely doomed.

[reader]

I discovered Babylon on my second trip to Bangkok in late 2002 when it was enjoying its salad days. That first visit was like being transported to a parallel universe hitherto unimaginable to me. You could spend a few hours--or much of the afternoon and evening--in an atmosphere that encouraged indulgence not only in anonymous sex but in the amenities of a tropical resort.   I think admission was about 250 bht but was slightly higher on weekends.

Closing time was about 11p.m. Queues of motorbikes and taxis waited by the entrance to whisk patrons fresh from the communal showers to Silom where many made for the dance clubs or bars.

It's now been about seven years since my final visit. Over time it had become increasingly less of a lure to young locals. The once meticulous maintenance had fallen off. Nevertheless it remained an imposing place.

The following chapter from Imaging Gay Paradise (2012, Hong Kong University Press) traces the development and architecture of Babylon. The sauna was first located at the corner of the same road (Soi Nantha), in the embassy district.

https://imagininggayparadise.com/chapter-excerpts-to-read/read-thailands-babylon-sauna/

[PeterRS]

As pointed out in @reader's post, the original Babylon was housed in a smaller building at the top of the soi on the corner of Soi Nantha and Sathorn soi 1. Not sure when the soi was renamed but it has become Soi Nantha-Mozart. This was in recognition of the fact that the Austrian Embassy had extensive grounds just opposite. I expect it was to mark the 250th anniversary of Mozart's birth in 2006, but that's a guess. Like many other diplomatic compounds, some the grounds have been sold off. At the top of the soi opposite the old Babylon now is a hotel.

Gay saunas were quite new when it opened in mid-1987 (I actually thought it was two years later!) I can recall Volt off Asoke being the first I attended around 1985. This was quickly followed by the 10-storey Obelisks - but each floor was small. Thankfully there was a lift to the top. It had a jacuzzi on the roof which was always popular. There followed The Beach, but I never was there. Others then followed - Heaven which I believe still exists at the river end of Silom and then later one which almost reached Babylon standards - Chakran with its Moroccan theme off Soi Aree. Chakran also still exists but I have not been for around 15 years. I believe it is now largely Thai-for-Thai or at least Asian-for-Asian, whereas in the early years quite a number of young to middle-aged foreigners attended. For those first few years, I loved it and then preferred it to the new Babylon. There were always more young Thais. The large darkroom off the equally large jacuzzi area was always busy. After a few years, this became an all nude area - I believe the first in Bangkok. There was a small open air pool with a bar on one side. I loved just sitting on a lounger by the pool enjoying a drink and watching the eye candy as the guys descended from the first floor on the opposite open stairway. 

The original Babylon was indeed somewhere special. It was packed at the week-ends with queues at the reception desk waiting for lockers to become available. Like the new and much larger Babylon further down the soi, there was a small cafe/restaurant, usually with an instrumentalist playing quiet classical music on the week-ends - a guitar or flute if I recall correctly. When the building was expanded, a second cafe was opened. In addition to the usual sauna facilities, the rooftop bar was extremely popular. As there was also a large shower area at one end, it was a great place to cruise.

The main difference between the old and new is that for its first ten years or so, the vast majority of the customers seemed to be young and youngish Thais along some expatriates/foreign visitors. The Thai crowd was always in the majority and seemed quite well off - a judgement I came to merely by looking at the clothes they  were wearing in the queues. But at some point many of the Thais slowly moved elsewhere.

[reader]

As PeterRS predicted, the Travel Gay website (formerly "Travel Gay Asia") confirms that Babylon will not be reopening.

https://www.travelgay.com/bangkok-gay-saunas/

The term "end of an era" was applied in the past to the demise of Soi Twilight and, IMO, justifiably. Babylon's exit from the Thai scene is a like event. So many readers of this forum were former patrons. And if you were a visitor in the days described above, you must have some fond memories.

I don't think the Bangkok gay scene could survive losing the venues in Patpong 2. At least not survive in the sense that it was such a bright and vital drawing card as it was in 2019. Most of us had a favorite but Lucky Boys was ground zero for the biggest show, stage and number of guys who'd fill that stage nightly.

Sure, Moonlight had more than its share of the best lookers, but remembering that rotation of 6-8 rows of Thai, Cambodian, Viet and Lao guys, Lucky Boys still sets the standard for me. Have to think positive because I don't dare contemplate the negative.

 

[faranglaw]

I have so many fond memories of Babylon.  I have gone there almost every year since 1990, when it was in the old place down the street with all the tropical plants on the roof.  Too many fond memories to count.  It wasn’t until I was over 65 that my luck with the younger Asian men started to run out. And that was less because of my age and more because the clientele changed—more farang, more Asian men from other countries—Singapore, Hong Kong, South Korea- looking for other Asian men.  

Oh well, as George Harrison sang, “All things must pass.”  (including George Harrison)

[vinapu]

5 hours ago, reader said:

 

I don't think the Bangkok gay scene could survive losing the venues in Patpong 2.

 

way too early to write obituaries I think. It's like long winter when we lose hope it will ever be warm again but then May comes and all of the sudden we find ourselves in t-shirts and shorts again  

[PeterRS]

7 hours ago, faranglaw said:

I have so many fond memories of Babylon.  I have gone there almost every year since 1990, when it was in the old place down the street with all the tropical plants on the roof.  Too many fond memories to count.  It wasn’t until I was over 65 that my luck with the younger Asian men started to run out. And that was less because of my age and more because the clientele changed—more farang, more Asian men from other countries—Singapore, Hong Kong, South Korea- looking for other Asian men.

I expect we must have met (!) - or at least passed in the night - as my visits were as regular. And I agree that one of the reasons I eventually abandoned the new larger premises was the change in clientele. Not that an hour or more with a gorgeous guy from places like Singapore and Hong Kong cannot be as much fun as with a Thai guy. Indeed, one of my fondest memories is with a young guy from Kuala Lumpur.

As I have written before I regret I am one who does not share Vinapu's optimism about the future. It's partly about real estate. The central location of too many gay venues of the past have been one cause of their demise. Location for the foreign tourists who were the mainstay of many venues once most of the local Thais had moved away, is vital. Example. When the very popular Albury Massage Spa moved from its Sukhumvit 13 location to its less convenient new one down from Emporium close to Rama 4, it lasted little more than a year before it finally died.

The  price of central area real estate has become too high. If we think of Babylon, the land value of that entire plot (which is more than just the sauna and the Barracks) must be humungous. Just across the road are the 40 storey Sukhumvit Residences. When they were put on the market ten or so years ago, the apartments were the most expensive in the city. As long as the owner of Babylon was happy to create and look after his Eden for gay men, its future was not in doubt. He had tons of money and it did not matter that Babylon never made profits. If he has now lost his interest, nothing is likely to prevent the land being sold. Developers will be salivating at such a large centrally located plot becoming available.

The other issue is one that has occasionally been aired: the dislike of the elite and those in power for Bangkok being known as the gay capital of Asia. One who agrees if the excellent author Alex Kerr who has spent most of his life in Asia, the last 25 or so years in Bangkok. He has an encyclopedic knowledge of and acquaintanceship with several Thai movers and shakers. In a short section dealing with nightlife in his book Bangkok Found,  he compares Bangkok today with the dying days of the Weimar Republic in Germany. For a short period, Berlin was the Eden for gay men, as the novelist Christopher Isherwood who lived there has described. Then the Nazis came to power and gay Berlin quickly died. He believes the same fate is in store for Bangkok.

 

 

[Lonnie]

4 hours ago, PeterRS said:

He believes the same fate is in store for Bangkok.

If true, that's really depressing!

[Guest]

5 hours ago, PeterRS said:

 In a short section dealing with nightlife in his book Bangkok Found,  he compares Bangkok today with the dying days of the Weimar Republic in Germany. For a short period, Berlin was the Eden for gay men, as the novelist Christopher Isherwood who lived there has described. Then the Nazis came to power and gay Berlin quickly died. He believes the same fate is in store for Bangkok.

Back when they had the hyperinflation, I believe Berlin was very affordable for Brits like Christopher Isherwood.  That was certainly pushed as one of it's attractions in the BBC drama on his life, along with the scale of the gay scene.   The Pound might still have been a contender for the global reserve currency at the time, whilst the Mark had well known problems.   Perhaps Bangkok might have been more affordable after the Asian financial crises, when exchange rates were very favourable for a while.

After Hitler, Germany seems to have pushed tolerance and liberal values, so Berlin seems to have developed a very lively gay scene.   

The book you refer to is available to purchase here:   https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?isbn=9789749863923&n=100121501&cm_sp=mbc-_-ISBN-_-new

Think I might go for the Kindle issue instead

[10tazione]

There is the same trend everywhere in the world

1. gentrification of urban areas

2. shopping going online more and more, now with the pandemics even more so

3. loss of privacy

I wonder how much point 3. is an issue. 30 years ago, if you are a boy from Isaan going to work in a Gogo Bar in Bangkok, you didn't need to worry that other people of your village would see pictures of you in the big cxxk show ... Nowadays you just need to look at Youtube. Same same  as a customer, I feel inhibited when I read that in some places you might end up in the web because the owners don't care where exactly the webcam is pointing at...

[reader]

When I read a headline like this ("Govt says tourism industry may not recover until 2026") in today's Bangkok Post, I'm reminded that no one can accurately foresee what's actually going to happen. After reading through the article, one thing is clear: Thailand's reopening (in the context of interest to gay tourists) is almost solely dependent on whether it can succeed in vaccinating a critical mass of its residents before year's end. Failure to achieve that goal will have a domino effect that could not only dash our hopes of returning but force millions of its own citizens deeper into poverty than many already are at this moment.

The Thai media is alive with conflicting reports how the war against the virus is proceeding and how or when expats will receive vaccines. Private hospitals and the government are in disagreement on details. No one can say for sure when.

As described in other posts, in-fighting within governmental bureaucracies are hindering the vaccination efforts. The objections are often politically motivated but they all have two things in common: all of the objectors have political influence and good-paying and secure jobs. All out-of-work Thais have neither.

[PeterRS]

2 hours ago, z909 said:

Think I might go for the Kindle issue instead

Before you buy, please be aware that the section on nightlife is relatively short. It is very much a book for those who have been to Bangkok and known a bit about it - not a guide book for first-timers or those who have only been for a few sort visits. It deals a lot with various elements of Thai culture. So it is not for everyone, although I found it both interesting and enlightening.

[PeterRS]

Just thinking more about Babylon's closure. Is this the end of the gay sauna complex as a concept? Will the future see only sex catered for with the usual sauna, steam room, dark room, jacuzzi and private rooms? Perhaps with a bar?

After all, I can think of few saunas anywhere that included a very large pool, large gym and several bar/restaurant areas. I only experienced one large one in New York around 1982 before the AIDS crisis was being openly talked about, but I can recall little about it. In Europe around the same time I remember being staggered at the size of Le Continental Opera near the Palais Garnier Opera House. It had a huge pool in the basement. Perhaps I am biased but there was a large number of Vietnamese boys and I spent two great evenings there. I believe it died some years ago.

[Midguy1]

I'm sad to hear of the closure of Babylon.  I only made it there 3 times before,  but enjoyed my visits.  I got lost on my first visit as I didn't realise that part of it opened up later in the day and had a dreaded fear that I'd somehow wandered into a neighbouring building,  but to much relief found my back to the pool.  It seemed to offer much more than the European type saunas.

On 5/24/2021 at 2:36 AM, vinapu said:

way too early to write obituaries I think. It's like long winter when we lose hope it will ever be warm again but then May comes and all of the sudden we find ourselves in t-shirts and shorts again  

Unfortunately in the UK, May didn't come this year.  It has been unseasonably cold and wet, needing to keep jumpers and long trousers on, which pretty much sums up things just now.  But then again... there will be plenty more Mays with another coming next year (and every year after that.)

 

42 minutes ago, PeterRS said:

Just thinking more about Babylon's closure. Is this the end of the gay sauna complex as a concept? ...

Interesting thoughts. At the beginning of the millennium the saunas were one of the few places I found, where one could meet fellow gay men in a safe environment.  In the heyday there were even chains operating in the major UK cities. Then along came the apps and the rest is...   come to think of it I can't remember the last time I frequented a sauna, Babylon excepted. 

I like the positivity in Z909's example of Berlin.  Things do change, but with some adaptation they can come back.

[PeterRS]

3 hours ago, Midguy1 said:

I like the positivity in Z909's example of Berlin.  Things do change, but with some adaptation they can come back.

The question surely is: what adaptation and who pays for it? Babylon was a pet project of a very rich man. It was hugely successful for a long time and known worldwide. How does one adapt the Babylon model unless there is another rich Thai with oodles of cash to pay for a sauna experience in a reasonably accessible part of the city - even though it never pays its way? 

As mentioned, I thought the Moroccan-themed Chakran came close even though it was a much smaller land area. It was certainly the most enjoyable and relaxing sauna compared to the others. I understand the rooftop area was renovated a few years ago with a sort of Japanese theme including a jacuzzi, an onsen and an area with mattresses to relax naked at sunset. I do not know who owns it. No doubt the same man who ran the V Club massage spa on Soi Aree, since V Club was incorporated into the Chakran land some years ago. Before than V Club was a great place to visit as it often had some models and TV starlets available as masseurs. 

Chakran has been mostly Thai-for-Thai/Asian for quite a few years. I wonder if more farang were to visit regularly they would all be made welcome. Entrance prices depend on age with those over 50 paying about 360 baht, three times the price for 20-24 yos. Still far from unreasonable when you consider that the centrally located and smaller Sauna Mania off Soi Convent seems now to charge 2,000 baht (US$64) for over 50 yo patrons.

[Lycees]

Alex Kerr's 2009 book Bangkok Found has been updated and re-published on 1st July this year with a new name "Another Bangkok". I am not sure how much of the material is new (but it does cover the Covid crisis). It is published in the UK by Penguin at £9.99 and should be available internationally I assume.

[PeterRS]

That's excellent news as it is a very good book and seemed to get lost only being available mostly in Thailand. I understand Penguin is also printing editions in several European languages. I wonder what the new edition says about gay Bangkok. The first edition compared the development of Bangkok's gay scene to that in Berlin during the Weimar Republic, suggesting it would not last much longer - and he gave reasons.

[vinapu]

28 minutes ago, PeterRS said:

...... compared the development of Bangkok's gay scene to that in Berlin during the Weimar Republic, suggesting it would not last much longer - and he gave reasons.

some people are eternal optimists.

Was he suggesting that is Thai Hitler somewhere painting  some obscure provincial temple and waiting to jump to the scene ?

[reader]

From Books on Asia Podcast

On this episode of the Books on Asia Podcast, sponsored by Stone Bridge Press, we have returning to the show Alex Kerr, author of such notable books as Lost Japan, Dogs and Demons, Finding the Heart Sutra and Another Kyoto. Today Alex is going to talk with podcast host Amy Chavez about his latest book "Another Bangkok" released July 1, 2021. He introduces Thailand’s capital city via its architecture, arts and culture, and shows us how they are similar to Japan.

 

[PeterRS]

On 7/15/2021 at 10:56 PM, vinapu said:

some people are eternal optimists.

Was he suggesting that is Thai Hitler somewhere painting  some obscure provincial temple and waiting to jump to the scene ?

No! But he was comparing the natural in-built anti-gay feeling amongst the vast majority of Thais – that feeling that renders it extremely difficult for the tens of millions of professional young men and women to come out for fear of discrimination at work and reduced promotion prospects, as just one example - with a similar anti-homophobia amongst the Nazis which quickly resulted in the closure of Berlin's gay venues. The Thai elite want rid of the "sex capital of Asia" sub-text for its country. They usually get what they want!

Those of us who just visit Thailand see one small sliver of the country on visits to Bangkok and Pattaya. Of course there are many gay guys in both cities as in the rest of the country. We see just the very few that participate in the commercial gay sex business and are happy doing so. Some have noticed that the gay sex business has changed quite considerably over the years - with an increasing 'few' being replaced quite significantly by those from neighbouring countries. I do not think it is going to cease altogether. But when a gay writer who has lived in the country for close on a quarter of a century, a writer with a vast knowledge of the country and most elements of Thai society considers that the commercial sex industry's days are numbered, I'll take his word for it rather than those of any short time visitor or even expat living here.

[vinapu]

7 hours ago, PeterRS said:

..... Thai society considers that the commercial sex industry's days are numbered, 

In the form visible from street level, perhaps . Bars , saunas and massage parlors may be gone one day but commercial sex industry ? No country and no society ever achieved that in long term.

Considering  that our days are numbered too , most likely industry's disappearance in not such  a stressing  issue for us and if happens,  it will finally let us to do some sightseeing to learn Thailand better.  

[Bill]

Has any better news about Babylon Bangkok surfaced?

[pong2]

Best would be to ask christianpfc (from blogspot, active on the other forum too) as he has come back to BKK, lives pretty close by, walks a lot so can easily set his steps along it to ask. Or of coruse any of the other members who live in BKK, but I am not sure who those are

[PeterRS]

Babylon is dead and the land has been sold. The owner has moved to Chiang Mai