Some Boeing 737-Max Planes Grounded Yet Again

[PeterRS]

As if the poorly designed 737-Max had not had enough problems, now another one has cropped up. 16 airlines have been told that they need to address an electrical issue before the a specific group of the planes fly again.

It the light of this development, I have to ask how on earth the aircraft was passed for flight again by both Boeing and the FAA. It has still not been approved by some of the world's airline regulatory authorities.

Boeing will not say which airlines are affected by the electrical problem, but Southwest in the USA has already announced that it is grounding 30 of its 58 737-Max jets.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/09/business/boeing-737-max-electrical-problem/index.html

[JKane]

I just flew for the first time in a year or so, am very familiar with Boeing's issues and aviation in general, and wouldn't have minded if the 737-8 I took for one of the flights had been a Max.  

Just like crime stats, there are blips people get all passionate about but the decline in incidents and deaths in my lifetime has been MASSIVE and is now so low as to be nearly infinitesimal.  

The Max engineering was crappy, and may still need some addressing, but was only catastrophic in combination with developing-world airlines.  I'd say choosing a US, Canadian, or western-Europe flag carrier (several of whom had the MCAS issue in-flight but dealt with it fine) has a much greater impact on the percentages than avoiding whatever the currently infamous aircraft is, and even so it's still far less danger than driving to the airport or even walking around your neighborhood crossing streets.  

 

[PeterRS]

On 4/17/2021 at 11:42 PM, JKane said:

The Max engineering was crappy, and may still need some addressing, but was only catastrophic in combination with developing-world airlines.  I'd say choosing a US, Canadian, or western-Europe flag carrier (several of whom had the MCAS issue in-flight but dealt with it fine) has a much greater impact on the percentages than avoiding whatever the currently infamous aircraft is, and even so it's still far less danger than driving to the airport or even walking around your neighborhood crossing streets.  

Yes, the design and production of the 737-Max was crappy as has been proved by the FAA investigation. But to suggest the crashes were the result of being flown by "developing-world airlines" is frankly nonsense. That has already been proved. Plus there were about 200 prior complaints from US based pilots about problems with the Max which went unaddressed.

In the light of the electrical issues addressed in the original post, not only Southwest but also United and American withdrew 17 and 16 Max aircraft respectively from service. The problem was serious enough for the FAA to issue another directive on April 30 stipulating further modifications before the aircraft could fly again. To be fair, that has not stopped Southwest from ordering even more 737-Max aircraft.

The fault was eventually traced to poor electrical bonding resulting in improper earthing which could affect certain systems resulting in the loss of critical functions including de-icing.

One 737 Max critic has been Ed Pierson, a former Boeing employee who has basically maintained the 737 Max was pushed back into service too quickly. Earlier this year he published a report that explicitly linked production pressures with electrical anomalies and flight control system problems that occurred in both the Lion and Ethiopian crashes prior to the fatal accidents. As he states -

“Yes, MCAS caused the airlines to pitch down and crash. But it was an electrical system malfunction that likely caused the angle of attack sensor to send faulty data to MCAS.”

He further claims that the 20-month recertification process focused on software design and pilot training but failed to address the impact of production standards at the factory.

As for Boeing in general, The Seattle Times has had the most regular and knowledgeable reports throughout the Max crisis. An article on May 9 states - 

“This latest problem adds to the long litany of missteps currently afflicting Boeing.

“Manufacturing flaws have grounded more than 80 of the widebody 787 Dreamliners for months; design flaws mean the vision system on the Air Force’s KC-46 military aerial refueling tanker must be completely revamped; and quality issues have delayed the Starliner spacecraft program.

“And in a previously unreported problem, Boeing recently found a potential defect in a batch of 20 to 40 motors that move the horizontal stabilizer on all 737s, including the MAX and earlier models.

“This motor — manufactured by Eaton, a supplier headquartered in Ireland — is part of the system that pitches the airplane nose up or nose down. Boeing said seven of the aircraft with a stabilizer motor from the defective batch are MAXs.

“Boeing spokesperson Jessica Kowal said the defect potentially affects the reliability of the component. The motor ‘has been replaced in five of the MAXs already and the remaining two airplanes will have the parts replaced before they fly again,’ she said.

“Kowal said Boeing is continuing ‘to evaluate any potential impact to the 737 NG fleet.’

“American Airlines spokesperson Sarah Jantz said two MAXs in its fleet had their stabilizer motors replaced as a result of Boeing’s directive, although neither had experienced any issues. (Both those fixed MAXs are now grounded by the new electrical power control unit problem.)”

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-jet-deliveries-in-may-hit-by-latest-787-snag/

It is the problems affecting the 787 that seem the most worrying now. Defects in the joins to the various fuselage sections resulted in deliveries being halted for 5 months at the end of last year. Resumed in March, they were again halted on instructions from the FAA after only two were delivered in May. Now once again the problem seems to be electrical in nature. Boeing has still not resumed deliveries.

[reader]

Although there's nothing Boeing can do to alter the fact that the 737 MAX was simply a poorly designed makeover, demand for fuel efficient narrow body equipment is coming to the manufacturer's rescue.

From CNBC

Southwest Airlines said Tuesday (June 8 it is increasing its order for Boeing’s smallest 737 Max model by nearly three dozen planes, citing an improvement in travel demand.

The Dallas-based airline said in a filing that will exercise options to increase its firm orders of 737 Max 7s by 34 planes, bringing its total order book for that plane to 234. The all-Boeing 737 airline also has orders for 149 Max 8 planes to be delivered through 2031, as the company retires older 737s.

United Airlines and Alaska Airlines have also increased their Boeing Max orders in recent months, helping boost demand that dried up after the planes were grounded in 2019 after two fatal crashes. U.S. regulators lifted the grounding last November.

-------------------------------------

Airbus is already producing at max capacity of its popular 321 NEO so it's not able to take full advantage of the situation.

The public also has short memories in matters of this sort. It's quick to discount bad news as time puts distance between the crashes.

Both manufacturers received some good news today:

From CNBC

LONDON — The United States and European Union said Tuesday they have resolved a 17-year-long fight over aircraft subsidies, agreeing to suspend tariffs for five years stemming from the Boeing-Airbus dispute.

“This meeting has started with a breakthrough on aircraft,” said European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen, who met with President Joe Biden at a U.S.-EU summit in Brussels. “This really opens a new chapter in our relationship because we move from litigation to cooperation on aircraft — after 17 years of dispute.”

U.S. trade representative Katherine Tai said during a videocall Tuesday that: “Today’s announcement resolves a longstanding trade irritant in the U.S.-Europe relationship.”

---------------------------------

Airbus revealed today that it's considering going head-to-head with Boeing in the revived market for wide-body freighters.

Airbus is weighing the development of a freighter version of its wide-body A350 aircraft, the European manufacturer’s chief commercial officer said Tuesday, a move that could take on rival Boeing in the air cargo market.

The air freight market has been a bright spot during the Covid pandemic. Rates surged after the virus and travel restrictions devastated passenger travel, taking airplane belly space out of the market, creating a supply crunch. Snarls at ports have also boosted demand for air cargo.

[PeterRS]

12 hours ago, reader said:

The public also has short memories in matters of this sort. It's quick to discount bad news as time puts distance between the crashes.

I am sure you are correct - provided there is not another Max crash. Let us hope that does happen. Even so, given all we now know about all that aircraft's production problems and Boeing's relatively new corporate culture, I will never fly the plane. I just believe the design is fundamentally seriously flawed. Those larger engines that now jut above the wings should never have been fitted to what is a 1960s airframe.

That may seem strange because I remember making a detour just to fly the MacDonnell Douglas DC10 between Geneva and Zurich. This was after its first major crash - a 1974 Turkish Airlines flight outside Paris, a result of a poor cargo door locking mechanism. The subsequent decompression buckled the passenger cabin floor and severed most of the hydraulic lines. The pilots could no longer control the aircraft. All 346 on board were killed. Most passengers had not been booked on that flight. They had been transferred from a full British European Airways flight to London which was stuck on the ground due to a strike.

There were more DC10 crashes and a short FAA mandated grounding before production ceased and the revised similar MD11 version was rolled out. I flew this a lot and really liked that aircraft. Perhaps it's just age and experience that have resulted in my decision never to fly on the Max.

[anddy]

On 6/16/2021 at 9:25 AM, PeterRS said:

Let us hope that does happen.

There must be a "not" missing in that sentence

 

On 6/16/2021 at 9:25 AM, PeterRS said:

That may seem strange because I remember making a detour just to fly the MacDonnell Douglas DC10 between Geneva and Zurich.

Why would you make an effort to fly that particular aircraft after it had just crashed? Or is that sentence also missing a "not"?

 

On the 737max, I agree with you about that odd engine/wing constellation, which is the root cause of all that has happened with the crashes. If I understand things correctly it was this design that gave rise to the need for that faulty MCAS system, meaning without the MCAS the plane is nowhere near airworthy. Now I understand that electronic safety and other support system are of great benefit and reliability, but using them in a manner of  electronic sorcery to make a non-airworthy plane fly at all is not really a trustworthy concept to me. I hope I'll be able to avoid this model in the coming years. 

[PeterRS]

10 hours ago, anddy said:

There must be a "not" missing in that sentence

Why would you make an effort to fly that particular aircraft after it had just crashed? Or is that sentence also missing a "not"?

Yes to both - I mean "not" to both! Thanks for pointing this out.

I realise my view on the Max is extreme. After all, without "electronic sorcery" Concorde would never have got off the ground and I looked forward to my one flight with a lot of excitement. But when I flew supersonic, the airliner had been safely flying passengers for 25 years and its cockpit crews were both unanimous in their praise for it and proud to be flying it. On the other hand, it was a complete airliner designed totally from scratch. To save cash and nor lose ground to Airbus whose Neo narrow body family, Boeing rejected a complete redesign for the 737 and instead yet again adapted that original 1960s low to the ground body.

As I understand it, had Boeing simply lengthened the landing gear so that the fuselage sits higher off the ground, the engines could have been positioned under the wings and the problems and need for the MCAS system might have vanished. But a longer undercarriage would not have fitted into the existing wheel wells in the fuselage. So the struts would have had to be placed further out on the wing, thereby necessitating an a complete wing redesign which Boeing rejected on cost grounds. The problem was partly "solved" with some sort of telescopic strut. Another band aid solution!

[reader]

Amazing how quickly the gloomy forecast for Boeing and AIrbus has turned the corner.

From Bloomberg News

United Air Seen Finalizing Its Largest-Ever Narrow-Body Jet Deal

United Airlines Holdings Inc. is poised to buy more than 200 Airbus SE and Boeing Co. jetliners, one of the largest purchases in its history, as the U.S. carrier revamps its single-aisle fleet with more efficient planes, according to people familiar with the plans.

While terms are still being finalized and the order size is in flux, the total deal has expanded from that first reported by Bloomberg News earlier this month, said the people, who asked not to be identified as the talks are confidential.

United is expected to take upwards of 150 of Boeing 737 Max jetliners and more than 50 Airbus A321neos, they said. The deal will be showcased during investor and media events scheduled for Tuesday by the Chicago-based carrier.

The order highlights the vigor with which demand for new jets has snapped back in the U.S. following the historic collapse in air travel last year as the coronavirus pandemic swept the globe. United ordered 50 of Airbus’s long-distance A321XLR model in 2019 and has accelerated deliveries from previous Max orders to capitalize on Americans’ surging demand for leisure travel.

Even with a slew of 737 orders, a parallel deal for Airbus’s A321XLR to replace Boeing 757s, United’s oldest and largest single-aisle jets, would come as a blow to the U.S. planemaker and add to pressure to fill the mid-range gap in its commercial jet line-up.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-06-26/united-air-seen-finalizing-its-largest-ever-narrow-body-jet-deal?srnd=premium

[10tazione]

no hear 737 max long time

Alaska Airlines grounds 737 Max 9 planes after section blows out mid-air

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67899564

[reader]

I'd avoid whenever I have an opportunity. But the only competition is the Airbus 321 and neither manufacturer can produce enough copies to meet demand.

[unicorn]

2 hours ago, 10tazione said:

no hear 737 max long time

Alaska Airlines grounds 737 Max 9 planes after section blows out mid-air

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67899564

Yikes! 😬 I wonder what percentage of their fleet are 737Max's. I'm scheduled for some Alaska Air flights in June. 

Update. Google's great. "Boeing Max 9 Makes Up 29% of Alaska Air Passenger Fleet...". Double yikes. That's a whopping percentage. I hope our flights don't get cancelled. I don't know how they can find so many planes in such a short amount of time. 😩

The flights are listed as 

Alaska Airlines 1041

 

Boeing 737-900 (Winglets)

I wonder if those are the 900 Max's. 

[fedssocr]

no, 737-900 is not the same as the Max 9

[Stable Genius]

I expect Boeing will assign its top accountants to assist in the investigation.

[Keithambrose]

10 hours ago, Stable Genius said:

I expect Boeing will assign its top accountants to assist in the investigation.

And lawyers!

[reader]

The investigation into this incident reflects why it takes time and effort to uncover all the reverent facts.

From CNN

NTSB says, as new details emerge about the aircraft

 

Federal officials examining the horrifying midflight blowout of an Alaska Airlines plane section have announced the discovery of the lost piece that had fallen from the aircraft – a key element in the investigation into what happened during the plane’s “explosive decompression.”

A Portland schoolteacher named Bob found the refrigerator-size Boeing 737 MAX 9 fuselage door plug in his yard and reached out to the National Transportation Safety Board, NTSB Chair Jennifer Homendy said at a news conference Sunday night.

The plug door had been missing since it blew off an Alaska Airlines aircraft Friday, leaving a gaping hole on the side of the plane as it flew at 16,000 feet shortly after taking off from Portland. The harrowing ordeal – which saw headrests ripped off and items sucked from the cabin – has led to the nationwide grounding of certain Boeing 737 MAX 9 aircraft and a slew of flight cancellations.

“It must have been a terrifying event to experience,” Homendy said Sunday after seeing the chaotic aftermath of the plane’s interior, which included damage in several rows.

Complicating efforts is the loss of critical cockpit audio recordings because of a device setting, according to Homendy.

Plane was restricted from flying over water amid auto pressurization fail lights

Alaska Airlines had restricted the plane from flying from over the ocean to Hawaii to ensure the plane could “return very quickly to an airport” in case any warning lights in the aircraft went off, according to Homendy.

The decision came as the plane’s auto pressurization fail light had illuminated three times in the past month, Homendy said, noting it is unclear if there is any correlation between the warning lights and the Friday incident.

The fail light came on December 7 and on January 3 and 4 –- the days leading up to the blowout, she said. Each time, the flight crew flipped a switch to the system’s backup, Homendy said, describing the move as “very normal.”

“They flipped it, they reported it, it was tested by maintenance and then reset.”

“They did order additional maintenance to look at the light that was not complete before (the fuselage blowout). We plan to look at that more and we’ve requested documentation on all defects since delivery of the aircraft on October 31,” she said.

CNN has sought comment from Alaska Airlines on the plane’s flight restriction and warning lights.

The Boeing 737 Max 9 involved in Friday’s incident had been in service for about three months and has flown about 150 times since October 2023, according to FlightAware and FAA records.

Interviews with flight crew members and the examinations of the damage left behind inside the cabin shed light on the loud, “violent” and chaotic scene inside the aircraft when the plug door tore off, causing an incredibly forceful depressurization and sending flight attendants rushing to the side of children on the flight, the NTSB chief said.

After the “explosive event,” flight attendants scrambled to ensure four unaccompanied minors onboard were wearing oxygen masks and lap belts, Homendy said, praising the attendants as “heroic.”

But “communication was a serious issue” between the pilots and flight attendants, who said they were having difficulty quickly sharing information, she added.

Cockpit recorder setting wipes crucial evidence

The cockpit voice recorder, which captures sounds such as engine noises and pilots’ voices, was “completely overwritten,” since devices are currently only required to retain two hours of audio at a time, Homendy said.

“There is nothing on the cockpit voice recorder,” she said, noting the maintenance team went out to get the recorder around the two-hour mark when the devices begin a new recording cycle.

The audio captured by the recorders is “critical” to helping investigators understand what occurred during the incident, Homendy said. Without it, there is no record of communications between pilots and flight attendants as the crisis was unfolding.

“If that communication is not recorded, that is, unfortunately, a loss for (the NTSB), and a loss for the FAA and a loss for safety because that information is key not just for our investigation, but for improving aviation safety,” Homendy said.

Continues with photos and video

https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/08/us/alaska-airlines-plug-door-found-investigation-monday/index.html

[reader]

NOTE -- Using the Omni velocity calculator, an object falling 16,000 feet strikes the ground at a speed of 691.8 m.p.h.

From CBS News

iPhone that got sucked out of Alaska Airlines plane and fell 16,000 feet is found on the ground – and still works

When a door plug on an Alaska Airlines plane suddenly ripped off minutes into a flight on Friday evening, everyone on board remained safe, but several objects were sucked out of the aircraft and fell roughly 16,000 feet – including what appears to be an intact and working iPhone. 

Washington resident Sean Bates tweeted on Sunday that he found an iPhone on the side of the road that was "still in airplane mode with half a battery and open to a baggage claim" for the plane involved in Friday's incident, Alaska Airlines ASA1282. The phone also has a piece of a charger still stuck inside. 

"Thing got *yanked* out the door," Bates tweeted, "...survived a 16,000 foot drop perfect in tact!" 

Bates said he called the National Transportation Safety Board, the federal agency investigating the incident, and an agent told him it was the second phone to be found from the plane.

[unicorn]

1 hour ago, reader said:

... an iPhone... got *yanked* out the door," Bates tweeted, "...survived a 16,000 foot drop perfect in tact!" 

...

Glad to know that the iPhone (presumably Siri) was tactful! 😄

 

[Stable Genius]

Want more of this? Elect Republicans so they can de-regulate inspections.

[unicorn]

The latest news is that there were some screws loose. Perhaps someone sleeping on the assembly line?

[Stable Genius]

Guess the loose bolts weren't checked soon enough!

 

NATIONAL

Boeing urges airlines to check its 737 Max jets for loose bolts

DECEMBER 29, 20233:13 PM ET

 

https://www.npr.org/2023/12/29/1222228617/boeing-737-max-jets-faa-loose-bolts-nuts

[unicorn]

2 hours ago, Stable Genius said:

Guess the loose bolts weren't checked soon enough!

 

NATIONAL

Boeing urges airlines to check its 737 Max jets for loose bolts

DECEMBER 29, 20233:13 PM ET

 

https://www.npr.org/2023/12/29/1222228617/boeing-737-max-jets-faa-loose-bolts-nuts

Well, that link is misleading, since it refers to problems with the rudder control system: "The Federal Aviation Administration says it is closely monitoring inspections of Boeing 737 MAX jets after the plane-maker requested that airlines check for loose bolts in the rudder control system...". Plenty of loose screws to go around, though.

"The problem here is relatively insignificant, but it does speak to continued serious problems with the production ramp, both at Boeing and with its suppliers."

[Keithambrose]

I avoid flying on any 737 Max.

[Stable Genius]

Cockpit Door On 737MAX-9 Was Designed to Rip Open in a Rapid Depressurization But Boeing Failed to Tell Pilots of This Feature

https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2024/01/09/cockpit-on-737max-9-was-designed-to-rip-open-in-a-rapid-depressurization-but-boeing-failed-to-tell-pilots-of-this-feature/

 

Wonder what else Boeing isn't telling the pilots.

[unicorn]

On 1/8/2024 at 9:55 PM, Keithambrose said:

I avoid flying on any 737 Max.

Not a bad idea, but difficult to implement in practice. Airlines don't often label the aircraft as such on their websites. Plus, aircraft changes can happen between when you buy the ticket and when you fly. Will you deplane if, upon entering the aircraft, you find out it's a MAX?

[thaiophilus]

I'd be very surprised (and it would be headline news) if I turned up to Gatwick to board EK016 and it turned out to be any Boeing aircraft 🙂.