The future of gogo bars in Bangkok

[Lucky]

@z909 Bangkok phone app?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Lucky said:

@z909 Bangkok phone app?

Sorry, perhaps I was not clear.    Here's a translation:

Location is Bangkok.   Meeting using phone app.   In my case, mainly Grindr or Hornet.  

Service also tends to be better via the phone apps, as that's all negotiated before meeting.

 

[Lucky]

@z909 Thanks for the clarification. I have never used a phone app for sex.

[Boy69]

On 3/18/2021 at 10:45 PM, z909 said:

Service also tends to be better via the phone apps, as that's all negotiated before meeting.

Not sure about that , you can also negotiate with potential boys in the bar before offing them. My experience with boys from bars is usually positive but due the high prices of the whole process ( drinks ,tips to bar's staff , off fee to the bar  and fee to the boy) I do prefer the apps and rarely off boys fro bars.

[PeterRS]

As this thread is illustrating, there are arguments pro and con the bars and pro and con the apps. The single common factor seems to be that taking a boy from the apps will end up something like 50% less than from a bar, given all the costs involved in visiting a bar, drinks, off fee etc. To my way of thinking, once more and more tourists start to return, it is surely a fact of life that economics alone will result in even less visitors to the bars.

As before the pandemic, the future seems to be with the increasing number of Chinese and other Asian visitors. But as many have written before, what this group want from a bar is different from the earlier western visitors. Leaving the mainland Chinese aside for a moment, other Asians have a definite preference for massage with happy endings and attending saunas with their friends. They might then go to a bar to see the show before ending up in a disco. Its hard to lump all mainland Chinese into one group but most on tour groups only visit the bars as a tourist-type experience just as they would the Grand Palace. Before the pandemic, more and more Chinese were embarking on solo tours and I expect their numbers will continue to increase exponentially in future. But Ithey tend to stay in the higher end hotels and I have not read many stories here of younger gay Chinese taking boys off from gogo bars. Gogo bars basically don't exist anywhere else in the region (perhaps Manila apart) and so their vacations are filled with high-end shopping, massages, saunas, discos and perhaps an occasional visit to a gogo bar. Drop the gogo bar, and this is the their behaviour pattern in places like Singapore, Hong Kong and Taipei.

In my crystal ball, therefore, I see little hope of the bars returning to their earlier glory. Some Thais are obviously returning during the pandemic and may continue to do so. But their numbers are small; nothing like in the 1980s and 90s. More Asians will eventually do so. But the only way the bars can survive is a radical rethink of the business model. It will no longer be acceptable to have over high drink prices with bored boys in underwear rotating around a stage and more interested in their phones than the audience. Shows depending on ludicrously made-up female impersonators bore everyone except the Thais. Big cock shows can be of interest and I suppose there will always be an audience for fucking shows, although the massive spread of pornography on the internet has in my view reduced even their impact, if only because when I last visited a bar years ago, the participants appeared so bored. That is so unlike the 1980s and 90s when the boys in most of the growing number of gogo bars exuded fun. They interacted with each other, laughed and their sense of fun was infectious.

It must be more than a dozen years ago when the poster Shamelessmack in his first incarnation proposed a new model for gogo bars. This did away with large spaces in favour of a few smaller closed ones where different types of gogo entertainment could take place. I cannot recall any of the detail other than it did depend on nudity in at least one of the spaces. Perhaps genuine strip-tease in another. But since Thaksin's Social Order campaigns 20 years ago nudity outside a show seems no longer been permissible. Yet with the police and the army having a stake in both ownership and the regular brown envelopes, surely it is in their interest in pushing the legal regulations to the limit to ensure greater profitability.

I wonder what radical changes readers would like to change in the gogo bar model, both to make them more fun and a must-see for gay visitors (and expats). 

[Guest]

Replying to Peter RS and others:

1  I don't mind paying a bit extra to visit gogo bars, if it's worthwhile.   So they need nice boys, wearing very little and mamasans that don't try to spoil the experience by harassing customers.    Maybe some dancing or playful activity.   

Then if I'm to consider an off, if the gogo boys want more money than phone app boys, that's OK as long as they are worth it.  However, they often combine expectations of higher tips with lower level service.   So eventually, I'm more likely to use phone apps than visit Bangkok gogo bars.  I'm not alone in reaching this conclusion.   

I just get the impression that lads on phone apps often consider their prospects for repeat meetings and are more inclined to make sure the client is happy.  Whereas the Bangkok gogo boys seem to behave like we're only ever going to meet once.  This is self-reinforcing behaviour.

OK, so I still visit the gogo bars, but not as frequently as I would if the higher cost was matched with a better experience.  

 

2  The Thaksin social order campaigns seem to have stopped nudity in boy bars, but not girlie bars, where they have full nudity.  Also nudity seems to be permitted in some kind of perverted show, but not the normal gogo part of proceedings.   All very inconsistent. 

 

3  If bars evolve for Asian customers, we're probably going to have something like New My Way in Chiang Mai.   When I visited in 2020, they only had the cabaret show, with lady boys etc.   I turned up earlier on another night and the stage was empty.   The audience was full of probably Chinese customers, playing with their phones waiting for the cabaret to start.   One of the waiters confirmed they no longer have gogo boys.    On the previous visit, about a decade ago, I was offing lads from here.  

However, I'm not convinced all Chinese want cabaret type shows rather than the traditional gogo offering.   I remember meeting a gay Chinese friend in an ASEAN city and proposing a visit to a gay bar.  He just assumed the show would involve nudity, but wasn't really interested when I described what would be on offer.   There is probably some diversity of expectations among Asian customers as well.

[vinapu]

2 hours ago, Drifter said:

 

I would like to see fat and old queens banned from the bars..............

I would also like to see all mainland Chinese barred from travelling outside of China 

what about letting market do it's work.

banned this and barred that, isn't it job of private clubs , not a public bars ?

 

[Lucky]

6 hours ago, Drifter said:

 

I would like to see fat and old queens banned from the bars. That would be a radical but wonderful, change. Nothing turns-off the Thai customers and younger customers, in general, as much as the sight of the Jabba Grandpas pawing away at boys young enough to be their grandchildren right there in the bar. The Thais are returning to the bars at the moment because they don't have to see such sights for now.

I am fine with the high prices in Bangkok, because it keeps the cheapskates out of the bars and I would rather that the boys made money from charging more and getting fewer customers, because it is safer for the boys and safer for their customers as well. I would also note that the clubs that have charged the most - Dream Boy in Bangkok and BBB in Pattaya - are also the ones have drawn the biggest crowds and have shown staying power. The clubs that have tried to compete on price have usually died fairly quickly. It is a pensioner's fantasy to think that they way-forward for the bars is to slash prices and attract cheapskates. Thailand, in general, needs to move its tourism sector upmarket; so too with the bars. The last thing that the country and the bars need is to attract lots of cheap Chinese and Indians. That will be the death of them.

As far as Mack goes, he has never run a bar, so his thoughts on how the bars should operate are as worthless today as they were in his first and subsequent incarnations. Many of the bars outlasted his blog, so they must have been doing something right. His current blog would also be a lot more useful if he actually shared the names of the masseurs he was rating and if he got rid of that moronic system of classifying physiques.

I would also like to see all mainland Chinese barred from travelling outside of China ...forever. Horny Chinese are hardly the most thrilling company in a bar. That would be radical, wonderful and unfortunately, will not happen. Indeed, none of them is likely to happen; but one can dream =)

Truly one of the rudest, inconsiderate posts I have ever seen. @Drifter, you should be ashamed of yourself.

[Boy69]

6 hours ago, Lucky said:

Truly one of the rudest, inconsiderate posts I have ever seen. @Drifter, you should be ashamed of yourself.

+1

I think the moderator of this forum should delete  @Drifter offensive comment.

[daydreamer]

14 hours ago, z909 said:

 The Thaksin social order campaigns seem to have stopped nudity in boy bars, but not girlie bars, where they have full nudity.  Also nudity seems to be permitted in some kind of perverted show, but not the normal gogo part of proceedings.   All very inconsistent.

The one who masterminded and implemented the new social order campaign in 2001 was Interior Minister Purachai Piumsomboon.  He was famous for personally heading up a team of police and reporters and raiding bars, looking for reasons to close them down. 

Yes, he seemed more focused on the boy bars rather than the girlie bars.  A Thai boy I used to off regularly at the time told me that Purachai took out his anger on the boy bars, because he had a son who was gay.  I don't know if this is correct, but that's what I was told at the time about twenty years ago. 

Anyway, Purachai no longer lives in Thailand.  He moved to New Zealand many years ago.

[PeterRS]

1 hour ago, Drifter said:

Purachai's crackdown also put an end to the open exploitation of kids that was common in many of the bars at that time, both straight and gay. Let's not forget that. It used to be that 16 was the legal age to work in bars and many bar owners did not even stick to that.

Yes, it completely changed the bar scene and things aren't as wild as they were before, but some of those changes were for the better. It also worth remembering that Soi Twilight grew much bigger after the crackdown - the number of bars there increased, not decreased.

Purachai was a deeply religious family man and a pal of Prime Minister Thaksin. He loved joining the major raids and having his photo in the papers. There was one of him holding a used condom outside Babylon. He was quoted as saying this proved that there were illegal sexual activities going on inside. If only the idiot had thought about it, his colleagues in the health ministry should have been delighted that people attending saunas actually wore condoms.

I take exception to your comment that there was open exploitation of kids in the main bars in Bangkok, certainly those frequented by westerners. There was no exploitation by 2001. That may not have been the case in Pattaya and almost certainly not the case upcountry in the bars frequented only by Thais. Perhaps not surprisingly, it was upcountry where his nightlife reforms were especially popular.

The number of bars in Twilight may have increased but other bars closed and the offerings in the bars from 2001 onwards were nowhere near like those before Purachai appeared.

There was an interesting article in the New York Times in 2006 about the effect of the Social Order campaigns. This talks about the effect on the late night dance clubs, most of which quite quickly died soon thereafter. It adds "one night at the 15-year-old Zouk bar in Singapore provides more real action and excitement than you'd find in an entire week on R.C.A." (Royal City Avenue, one of the three permitted entertainment zones, this one catering more for Thais). Having been at SIngapore's Zouk Bar several times in the mid-1990s, it was a fabulous place for spending a long evening and seeing a lot of great eye candy. Zouk rarely closed before 4:00 am.

Even Kurt Wachtveitl, the revered long term GM of the Oriental Hotel, wrote of his objection to the early closing mandated by Purachai and its effect on tourism. 

It is also interesting, I believe, to realise that what the Thai elite objected to was far less what was going on in the bars and saunas - they actively disliked the dance clubs and especially their effect on their high-born daughters. As the award-winning author Alex Kerr points out in his very perceptive book Bangkok Found - "Politicians and bureaucrats see dance as dangerous and have done their best to restrict it, by granting few dance licences and tightening the zoning for entertainment districts, and requiring clubs to close earlier and earlier. Bangkok is already far more restrictive than Singapore or Tokyo when it comes to officially mandated times for closing and permitted age limits for entry." 

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/01/travel/social-order-takes-the-life-out-of-night-life-letter-from-bangkok.html

[kokopelli]

On 3/20/2021 at 4:01 PM, Drifter said:

 

I would like to see fat and old queens banned from the bars. That would be a radical but wonderful, change. 

 

 

Drifter, I trust you will never grow old or fat and never be short of money. FYI, the gay scene in Pattaya is kept alive by the very people who you demean. 

[Guest]

I might be a bit slow in reaching this conclusion, but:

When a troll post is within the board rules, the best response is to ignore it.   If the author frequently posts such material, automate the process by putting him on ignore.

If a troll post is outside the board rules, report it.

There are 7.7 billion people on the planet.   Some are worth the time, others are not.

[spoon]

Seems like the golden years of gogo and gay bars was marred and possibly kept alive by exploitation of underage offerings. Those bars that were closed due to clamped down of underage sex workers deserved to be closed, as well as those who frequent these bars. If current offerings is a direct result of thailand now free of underage sex workers, so be it. The more recent changes precovid is definitely due to availablity of apps such as grindr that makes hooking up, free or paid, much simpler, without middle man, and available 24/7.

Having said this, everyone have access to the apps anywhere, even back home. What i dont have at home and went to thailand to find are the gogo bars, many selections of guys at the massage/bars, cheap overnight rate, plenty of delicous and cheap thai food. We do have massage here, usually cheaper, but none have the masseurs available in front of you for u to choose like arena. Another uniqueness about thailand is ST and LT, where in most places, the charges are by hours, and overnight is usually much higher (4-5 times higher than 1 hour charge) thus making overnight in thailand so cheap. Hence i tried as much as i can to get a LT when im in bangkok. Admittedly, its getting harder to get one that i like and also open to LT. Hoping my regulars will still be around when i can go there

[daydreamer]

13 hours ago, PeterRS said:

I take exception to your comment that there was open exploitation of kids in the main bars in Bangkok, certainly those frequented by westerners. There was no exploitation by 2001. That may not have been the case in Pattaya and almost certainly not the case upcountry in the bars frequented only by Thais. Perhaps not surprisingly, it was upcountry where his nightlife reforms were especially popular.

 

I agree with PeterRS.  I never saw any exploitation of underage boys in the areas in Bangkok that were frequented by westerners. 

The only time I was personally aware of under age boys in a bar in Bangkok was a small hidden away boy bar on the Sutthisan side of Phahonyothin Road, a short distance away from Saphan Kwai.  I know of this because I was walking on Pradipat Road one night, and a tout from the under aged boy bar approached me.  When he told me the ages of the youngsters, I made it clear I was not interested.  Needless to say, I did not go to the bar, but I did see the location when he pointed it out across Phahonyothin Road. 

The Sutthisan area, east of Phahonyothin Road was and still is a local Thai nightlife area.  I have gone past the bars many times in taxis, and I never saw any westerners in the Sutthisan area.  When the tout approached me was during the late 1990's, so before Thaksin and Purachai were in power.  All the boy bars in Saphan Kwai employed only 18+ year old boys.

 

[Guest]

Please take care to keep this thread within the board rules, as certain topics are not permitted.

 

[Designated_Gay]

Grateful if we could stick to the subject matter of this thread. I will be going to Thailand in May and June..looking forward to a somewhat different experience than in the past 

[Lucky]

21 hours ago, z909 said:

Please take care to keep this thread within the board rules, as certain topics are not permitted.

 

@z909 Do you want to be named a moderator? Oz may be wanting volunteers.

[Lucky]

22 hours ago, daydreamer said:

I agree with PeterRS.  I never saw any exploitation of underage boys in the areas in Bangkok that were frequented by westerners. 

The only time I was personally aware of under age boys in a bar in Bangkok was a small hidden away boy bar on the Sutthisan side of Phahonyothin Road, a short distance away from Saphan Kwai.  I know of this because I was walking on Pradipat Road one night, and a tout from the under aged boy bar approached me.  When he told me the ages of the youngsters, I made it clear I was not interested.  Needless to say, I did not go to the bar, but I did see the location when he pointed it out across Phahonyothin Road. 

The Sutthisan area, east of Phahonyothin Road was and still is a local Thai nightlife area.  I have gone past the bars many times in taxis, and I never saw any westerners in the Sutthisan area.  When the tout approached me was during the late 1990's, so before Thaksin and Purachai were in power.  All the boy bars in Saphan Kwai employed only 18+ year old boys.

 

In the mid-nineties I was at a bar on Soi Twilight. I don't remember the name, but it was upstairs. They had dancers doing the usual stuff, then they announced a rotation. The new dancers were quite young, and I do mean likely underage. The mamasan was a guy I had once hired in Pattaya, very muscular guy. He had a hard time keeping the kids in line.. I didn't stay and never went back. I am sure the bar did not last.

[Guest]

On 3/21/2021 at 9:12 PM, Designated_Gay said:

Grateful if we could stick to the subject matter of this thread. I will be going to Thailand in May and June..looking forward to a somewhat different experience than in the past 

Yes that would be a good idea.   Lets discuss the future of gogo bars, not what belongs in the past.   

Having said that, wandering totally off topic, you're likely to find some terrific discounts on hotels & no worries about having to book well in advance.  Except of course do book your quarantine hotel and the hotel you first stay at after that, which they seem to take a lot of interest in.

Of course, I doubt much will evolve with the future of gogo bars in the next month.    You may well find it's still a very limited selection of bars open, but  life is all about enjoying what is available & once you've done that, there are the phone apps.

Thinking about what I like in gogo bars, that might work in the future gogo bar:

1  Fun.   Encourage some play acting on stage.  

2   Have hot lads.    Different members might have totally different ideas of what is hot.   So bars with different specializations is no bad thing.   Perhaps not necessary where a bar has 50 lads, but if a bar's got 10 lads, it's difficult to please everybody.

3  Have the customers close to the boys & have good lighting.   The bar employs handsome lads, so make sure they are visible !   The old Euroboys Pattaya gogo bar had this about right. 

4   The music should not be too loud.   No need to make visiting the bar painful, but do have some music.      The lowest volume gogo bar music I've ever encountered is in Winner Boys.  They probably go too far, as you can actually hear the conversation at the next table above the music.   I've been in branches of Starbucks with louder music.   However, it's better to be too quiet than so loud it will damage your hearing. 

5  Either have no mamasans, or train them properly.   Make sure they are not pushy and stay away when the customer does not want to spend the time talking to the mamasan.    

6  Dress the staff appropriately.

    Worst:  Fully clothed, as in Cupidol last month.   So what exactly is the advantage over a host bar ?

    Bad:   Jeans, as has been seen in various bars for short periods.   Perhaps when the fees have not been paid to the authorities.   

    Better:  Small white underwear, with thin material (as seen in Freshboys in recent years)

                 Small white underwear, with low coverage, as Euroboys used to have.

                 Small aprons, as used to be used in Nature Boy Bangkok.

                 Nudity.  Apparently used to be common in gay gogo bars, but it's now for girlie bars only.    I don't see the logic.

 

7  Recognize that the product is at a premium price point (for Bangkok).   So, as far as is possible, try to make sure the boys deliver when they do have a customer.   I know this isn't easy, but some of the host bars in Tokyo manage it.   Any customer taking a short time lad there will get a full hour of very good service.    If I remember correctly, the fee paid to the bar was typically around JPY 15,000.  That's drinks, off fee and paying the lad.   4253 baht, but in a much wealthier country.    To be honest, the attitude in Japan is very good and the levels of customer service are superb.   It's actually better value than the 3500 short time off from a Bangkok gogo, where in recent years, the lad is often out of the door as fast as possible.  

As far as I'm concerned, the Bangkok gogo boys are competing with the lads working on the phone apps who typically find more time for the customer. 

 

2 hours ago, Lucky said:

@z909 Do you want to be named a moderator? Oz may be wanting volunteers.

Again ?   

Oz is doing a fine job as it is, including some very decisive work at the weekend.

[gerefan]

On 3/22/2021 at 4:12 AM, Designated_Gay said:

Grateful if we could stick to the subject matter of this thread. I will be going to Thailand in May and June..looking forward to a somewhat different experience than in the past 

You don’t say where you are going to in Thailand but here is a rundown of the gogo bars in Pattaya. There were about 10 fully active (every day) gogo bars last year before the covid problems. Now there are only 4 and one which is open some days of the week.

The full time ones are:

Nice Boys and Winner Bar in Sunee Plaza. Nice Boys is usually fairly well stocked and seems to specialise in what I would call rough types, although it does have the odd Twink.

Winner Bar specialises in twinks but you have to get there early. They are not flush with boys and later in the evening you may find hardly any in there.

Boyztown now only has two everyday gogo bars. XBoys and Dream Boys. X boys only had about 6 boys available last time I visited. Dream Boys even less.

The other gogo bar in BT is Cupidol which is only open weekends. Last few times I visited they had no boys at all available. I haven’t been back for a few weeks.

So you see you may be in for a disappointing time if you are going to Pattaya. If it’s ONLY gogo bars you are interested in stick with Bangkok!

[PeterRS]

5 hours ago, z909 said:

Fun.   Encourage some play acting on stage ....

Nudity.  Apparently used to be common in gay gogo bars, but it's now for girlie bars only.    I don't see the logic ...

try to make sure the boys deliver when they do have a customer.   I know this isn't easy, but some of the host bars in Tokyo manage it.   Any customer taking a short time lad there will get a full hour of very good service.    If I remember correctly, the fee paid to the bar was typically around JPY 15,000.  That's drinks, off fee and paying the lad.   4253 baht, but in a much wealthier country.    To be honest, the attitude in Japan is very good and the levels of customer service are superb.

Just to echo a few points raised by @z909. Get the fun element back in to the bars by having the boys at least appear to be enjoying themselves.

Bring back nudity, even if only for part of an evening. Since it seems OK in the girlie bars, I wonder if it the boys themselves that are too shy about going naked?

Cannot agree more about Japan. Doesn't matter how much of an age difference there is, the boys are there to give the customer a good time. Everything is so well organised, as you'd expect. There may be no gogo as such, but you can either go to one of the host bars or choose from an amazing selection on their internet site. There are several of these and absolutely everything you need to know is there - photos of all the boys, the times they work, the activities they are comfortable with (top/bottom), if they will drink alcohol or not, if they have been in porn movies, full details of the system and how it works, pricing and an order form if you want to reserve a particular boy (recommended). If you order someone to arrive at your hotel room at 8:00pm, they will be there probably at 5 seconds to 8:00! Fees are all inclusive unless you live far away in which case transport will be added. And no hassle with tips as none are expected. This is a screen shot from one of the on-line out call bars -

The full site is here - http://lang.dgdgdg.com/top.php#

[Londoner]

If only......

Any reference to whether they speak English?

[PeterRS]

2 hours ago, Londoner said:

If only......

Any reference to whether they speak English?

The majority will not speak English. If making a reservation, you can always ask the shop which guys speak a little English.

 

[spoon]

Regarding nudity in gogobars, i dont think the boys have issues. Some might but i believe most dont. I mean, they do get naked during shows like big cock, sex show and jerk off shows. I do believe its the bar decision or police thats limit the boys from being naked?