Does this need to stop, as Harris says? Or do Black "thugs" who disobey cops deserve to be shot?

[stevenkesslar]

It's clear that there's a growing consensus that the road to victory for President Toxic goes right through the growing public reaction against violence, looting, and rioting. 

Support for Black Lives Matter may have returned to where it was before George Floyd was killed.  There's no evidence yet that how people feel about BLM and the protests, or about the rioting and looting, is impacting how they feel about the underlying police reform and racial justice issues involved.  538 says there's no evidence - yet - that the growing backlash is changing how voters view Biden and Harris.  Most of this "backlash" is expressed by Republicans.  This cohort of Republicans was never for Biden or Harris, anyway.  They're busy arguing over whether Harris is really Black, or American.

The "thoughtful" conservative argument which was kind of articulated by Ghouliani this week goes like this, I think:  "We opened our minds to BLM for a week or a month.  But we didn't like how they behaved.  We don't like that when we tried to talk, they said we said something racist.  So you lost your chance."  To me, that seems like an odd argument to make to people who endured centuries of slavery, Jim Crow, and legal discrimination.  And who argue that the legacy of all that is still very much with us.  You can take that shit for centuries.  But we can't deal with your pain and anger for more than a few weeks. We can talk about racism, as long as you don't use the worst "racist".

We're now into the "but prove it" game with the right wing.  In 2016, the same people (like Fox News) who never condemned Candidate Toxic for goading people to be violent argued that it wasn't sufficient for Hillary to clearly and repeatedly condemn violence or threats of violence among her supporters.  So now they are doing the same thing with Biden.  It's not enough for him to condemn violence and looting.  We've seen that Republicans will applaud rich White people who point guns at unarmed Blacks.  Meanwhile, they'll argue Biden's words mean nothing. 

I don't think they will believe Biden until he acts like that vigilante - who is now a hero to some on the alt-right.  Biden would need to kill\ a few Black looters with an AK-47 to show he's serious.  Of course, after he does that, they'll call him a hypocrite and a murderer.

I'm going to keep saying this.  Team Toxic is going to get stupider, meaner, and more racist.  They have nowhere else to go.  So the burden is on Democrats and Independents to figure out what "going high" means in this context.

With that in mind, I thought these two videos offer an interesting point/counterpoint.  I'll - duh! - comment extensively below.  But the comments will make more sense if you  watch the 20 minutes or so of video first.  The first video is Kamala Harris.  The second is Brandon Tatum, a former Phoenix police officer and Black conservative who's been on Fox & Friends and shows like that.

 

So my comments.

I've mostly been trying to just listen to Black voices on this.  It is completely clear that embedded in these protests are a whole bunch of policing issues and social issues that impact Whites, too.  Unarmed Whites get killed by aggressive (I'd actually call them murderous) cops, as I'll return to below.  As a political matter, there also could be advantages in emphasizing this point:  it effects everyone.  But that's stating the obvious. 

So I'm trying to go with Black Lives Matter.  Which is not saying Only Black Lives Matter.  Or White Lives Don't Matter.  As a practical matter, I think you can have 100 % of this debate if all you do is listen to Black people.  And since that's kind of the point of the exercise, that's what I'm trying to do.  That's why I posted Harris and Tatum.

Donna Brazile just wrote this article in USA Today which makes one key point:  "The Talk" is now irrelevant.  Because even when Black Moms and Dads tell their kids how to deal with cops to prevent getting injured or killed, they'll end up dead anyway.  Brazile's article is a good read, because it helped me to further understand the anguish and pain Blacks overwhelmingly feel.  That said, it's a weak argument in this case.  It gives conservatives ammunition - literally -to say what Tatum does.  The whole point is that this "thug"  (his word, which is why I'm using it in quotations) would be alive today if he listened to cops like me. 

That's a good argument.  So is the argument that 99.9 % of killers wouldn't be convicted of murder if they didn't kill.  I don't find perfection very helpful in the real world we actually live in. Especially in the real world of cops, some of whom are racist, and criminals who are in fact not the most noble people on the planet.

Tatum also refers to Blake as "the lowest of the low ... the criminal of the criminals".  Harris says this was a young man with children, who he was actually shot right in front of.  For me, in thinking about this, it's helpful to start with the idea that the list of Black dead we are grieving is not Barack Obama, Tim Scott, Cory Booker, Michael Steele, and LeBron James.  We grieved Kobe Bryant, but because of a tragedy, not a police shooting.  So Tatum is right that when you go down the current list of Blacks whose names are recited and remembered and honored, you can make an argument that they are the bad apples. 

If a White guy like me called the victims "thugs" in front of a room full of Blacks, I would expect to be called a racist.  I would deserve to be called a racist, I think.  It's a loaded word, which I think devalues human life.  Especially when the context is you are describing a Black man or woman who was actually killed. 

It also gets to the whole issue of Black Lives Matter.  Which Black Lives Matter?  Is it okay for a cop to kill a Black man because he is or was a criminal?  Or because has a warrant out for his arrest?  Unless and until we deal with that, we can't move forward.  Certainly, waving guns and saying "those people" will trash the suburbs doesn't move us forward.  The Republicans' only hope is that they are the lesser evil.  Which in this case means that waving guns at Blacks and race-baiting is the least worst option most people can think of.

When you get past the rhetoric Tatum uses that can easily be called inflammatory, the core of his argument is that these shootings/killings were all justified based on the actions of the "thugs", who did not listen to cops.  I posted the video in part because it shows how easy it is to play Whack A Black, once you start with that assumption.  See!  He had an arrest warrant.  See!  She had felonies.  See!  They did not listen to the cop and resisted arrest.

It's a detail, but a significant one to me.  Most of the criminal records Tatum refers to to defend a shooting in 2020 go back to 2015 and 2016.   So after the shooting or murder, part of the Whack A Black game is you then go back in time and find what they did to justify why they are dead.  In Jacob Blake's case, it's easy.  When the worst you can find is some Black kid wore a hoodie, that's a bit different.  But the reality we're dealing with is that there's always a way to say this Black basically deserved to die, anyway. 

To be clear, Tatum isn't saying that.  He's saying, verbatim, that the use of deadly force was justified.  I think it's fair enough for me to hear his words as this:  If they don't listen to cops like me, they basically deserve to die.

Add this to the list of cancel culture excesses.  Because part of the way this works out in practice is that if you ever committed a crime, it justifies the actions of any cop who decides in the moment that the most reasonable outcome of the situation is to cancel your life.  Jacob Blake just learned that.  Whether or not he had kids or was loved was not relevant.  It was perfectly justified to at least try to cancel him.

Many people, including other Blacks, would agree with Tatum, I'm sure.  I find the idea repugnant.  It gives all the power to the cops, regardless of the circumstances.  Your life is in my hand.  And if I kill you for any reason, it's justified.  Here's the perfect example of the problem with that, if it isn't obvious already:

When you learn the context, it gets worse.  The dead guy in this video exterminated birds and other pests.  He was in a hotel room with invited friends, showing them the pellet gun he uses to kill birds.  Some other hotel guests outside saw this through a window and called 911 and said there was a guy in a hotel room with a gun.  The best description I heard of this was that it's a kind of Murderous "Simon Says".  A weapon of war is pointed at you.  And if you don't follow every instruction perfectly, you die.  This guy, who died instantly, is White.  Again, the policing issues involved here concern us all.

What I personally find most repulsive about this is that Tatum uses the same language to rationalize Blake's killing that was used in the Arizona hotel murder (my word, not the jury who acquitted).  These people died because they were a potential threat to the police, and the public.  It's hard for me to see how this guy above was a threat to the cop who killed him.  But they can, and did, argue he was reaching for a gun.  What I find most absurd is that you're in a hotel room with friends showing them a pellet gun, and you have to be killed to protect the friends you are with.

It's of course easier to make this argument with Blake.  It's not 100 % clear yet.  But I'm going with the worst assumptions.  Which is that Blake was sexually assaulting a woman who called 911, and the cops showed up knowing at least that there was an arrest warrant out for him.  He put his kids in the car and was probably trying to leave, I'd guess.  No member of "the public" at the scene - his family, his children, even the woman who called 911 because he may have been sexually assaulting her - actually wanted him to be shot.  After he was shot 7 times, everybody who knows him or has talked with his family - including a Black prosecutor and Vice Presidential candidate - has stressed the fact that this was a young man with a family who feels there was absolutely no justification for this. 

I think we can say for a fact that this does not help the image of the police, period.  It does not result in more law and order, period.  It reduces public safety and leads to protests, at least, and possibly riots or looting. 

Biden keeps using the word "de-escalate".  It's exactly the right word.  Easier said than done, of course.

A Gallup poll last month showed that most Americans agree that we need "major changes" in policing.  It is good news that 9 in 10 Blacks feel that way, and 51 % of Whites.  Technically, that's a majority of both races.  When you break it down further, that's 89 % of Democrats and 60 % of Independents.  Only 20 % of Republicans believe we need "major change" is policing.

This is yet another reason why the more I learn, the more I'm continuing to harden around the idea that the concept of conversation and compromise with most Republicans is pretty much a waste of time.  As a political proposition, there is every reason to think President Biden and a Democratic Congress can figure out reforms that a majority of Blacks, Whites, Democrats, and Independents will support.  There is a minority (14 %) of self-identified Republicans open to the conversation about major change, based on that poll.  I'm just going to assume that most Republicans are more inclined to think Blacks should have guns waved at them, and need to be feared because they want to abolish suburbs.  If that's an incorrect assumption, I'm going to assume Republicans have mouths as well as guns.  So they can explain what it is they really think.

There's a reason for this which I think makes sense, politically.  I watched a fascinating conversation on CNN last night that involved Cuomo, Lemon, a White conservative, and a Black BLM activist.  Everybody played what I would call their "stereotyped role" almost perfectly, in my view.  Which is to say, within the first few minutes the Black BLM activist called the White conservative a racist.  His response was that this proves his point.  No matter what you say, you're wrong.  Not just wrong, but a racist.  So why even have the conversation?  Cuomo was the one who said he could see how if it goes this way, and polarizes around race, it could lead to another term of President Toxic.  Even if the majority of Americans again vote for somebody else.

What needs to be added is that the White conservative's first few moments of talking was loaded with buzzwords, about the "woke" DNC and how he can support the idea that Black lives matter, but not the organization Black Lives Matter.  Because they are "socialist".  The activist's response included the statement that she is friends with the women  who founded BLM.  And none of them are "socialists".  Her use of the word "racist" may or may not have been the best way to react.  But when I heard the guy speaking it was almost immediately like nails on the chalkboard to me.

My own guess, given that he was willing to appear on TV and the fact that he expressed sympathy for the basic idea that Blacks have a real issue here, is that this conservative is probably in that 14 % minority who are open to a conversation about major reforms.  Which to me speaks to exactly how challenging it will be to have conversations.  As a White liberal, I've found that to be true based on years of trying.  I now feel like when President Toxic came along, pretty much all Republican conservatives I knew fell in line behind him.  That was easier than talking with me.  He expressed what they really felt.  

What used to surprise me, and now I just accept, is that even the so-called "reasonable" Republicans who want dialogue can't talk without using loaded and annoying language in every other sentence.  An example that has nothing to do with race:  former Indiana Guv Mitch Daniels went on Jon Stewart years ago.  He started out great talking about the need to get out of our partisan ditches.  Then he started to talk about Obama's "confiscatory" tax policies and "socialist" ideas, among other tropes.  Stewart went after him.  How can you say you want a dialogue, and then just roll out all the inaccurate tropes used against Obama?  To me it was a poster child example of how in the era of the Tea Party even the Republicans who say they want compromise and unity are very difficult to have conversations with.  To be fair, I'm sure Republicans feel the same way.  It's not a game of "You had me at ...."  It's a game of, "You lost me at."  For me, it often feels like, "You lost me when you opened your mouth."

As a counter, John Kasich did exactly the opposite when Trevor Noah became host.  Noah has said repeatedly he doesn't trust most people.  And when he's had conservatives on you can tell he is, appropriately, a skeptic.  What I found interesting, and reinforced my feelings about Kasich, is that Noah exuded respect for him.  Noah is clearly informed with South Africa's experience of apartheid.  Which ends more happily than not in the importance of dialogue and reconciliation.  That is what I think both him and Kasich deeply believe.  Kasich, for his part, clearly knew he was speaking to a liberal live audience.  He played to them.  He didn't use loaded buzz words.  He got them to applaud conservative ideas - like that these young people in your audience don't want to be paying off a huge national debt when they are my age.  If you're curious enough to watch the whole 16 minute interview, which is very interesting, click the hyperlink.

Noah and Kasich made crossing the racial and partisan divides look easy.  It actually isn't as easy as they made it look.  That's how most people feel, I think.

I think the project for the next few months for Democrats, Independents, and Republicans who don't like what they saw at the RNC is to be thinking and talking about this.  Everything I heard from Biden and Harris this week makes me feel like they are equipped to lead a national conversation both before and after Election Day.  President Toxic simply is not.  He'll change the subject to abolishing suburbs.  Or invite us to aspire to live in his alternative nation of White fat cats who can afford as many guns as they want.

 

[Buddy2]

The shooting of Jacob Blake and killing of George Floyd are national tragedies that go far beyond the November election.  And it also goes far beyond just  Mr. Blake and Mr. Floyd, as was shown  again and again  yesterday at the March on Washington 

I understand White  folk invested in their homes don't need Trump and his ilk to scare them about so-called anarchists in a nearbyl city . 

Police unions back the police, of course, as they should. If the initial reports about Mr Blake shot multiple times in the back for minor reasons, more more marches in Wisconsin and nationally are  warranted. (at the least).

[TotallyOz]

I am sure that most of you know the world outside of the USA looks at the USA and does not understand at all what is going on. The high held respect that many had for the USA is now gone or will be soon.

[JKane]

 

 

 

[SexyAsianStud]

not to bring up  sore topic, but if you want to see examples of victim blaming in these matters, you can stay local and check out the usual suspects at the daddys forum who proudly wear their racism for all to see. 

[stevenkesslar]

On 8/30/2020 at 1:17 PM, SexyAsianStud said:

not to bring up  sore topic, but if you want to see examples of victim blaming in these matters, you can stay local and check out the usual suspects at the daddys forum who proudly wear their racism for all to see. 

Let me turn that into a positive statement.

If you don't want to see examples of victim blaming and people who proudly wear their racism for all to see, avoid Daddy and his forum, like Steven Kesslar decided to.

It's easy.  And you'll feel better.

[stevenkesslar]

Juxtaposition of two videos from Kenosha: A Black man gets shot seven times from behind; a white teen with a gun walks past police

Quote

In the first video, taken Sunday afternoon, a Kenosha police officer fires seven shots at point blank range from behind 29-year-old Jacob Blake, a Black man, as Blake attempts to enter a gray SUV. A woman witnessing the scene can be heard screaming over and over: "Don't you do it! Don't you do it!"

In the second video, taken Tuesday night, Kyle Rittenhouse, a white 17-year-old, approaches officers shouldering an AR-15 semiautomatic rifle after allegedly shooting three people. Rittenhouse raises his arms in a gesture that appears to be surrendering, or possibly signaling that his hands are not on his weapon. Witnesses shout: "Hey, he just shot them! Hey, dude right here just shot them!"

Four armored vehicles, lights flashing, pass Rittenhouse, and several police cruisers can be seen nearby. No one stops Rittenhouse. He was charged Thursday with intentional and reckless homicide.

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by stevenkesslar

[Suckrates]

7 hours ago, stevenkesslar said:

Juxtaposition of two videos from Kenosha: A Black man gets shot seven times from behind; a white teen with a gun walks past police

 

 

BUT, in Trumps latest words of eloquence and brilliance, he paints Rittenhouse as the victim and defends his actions....   "They attacked HIM, and if he didnt shoot he may have been killed".  So Herr Trump, he did nothing wrong, Right ?  

He's just one of those "very fine people" that was in the wrong place at the wrong time...... His PARDON is in the mail, along with the McCloskey's.... 

VOTE THIS RACIST MUTHERFUCKER OUT !!!!!!!

[Lucky]

7 hours ago, stevenkesslar said:

Let me turn that into a positive statement.

If you don't want to see examples of victim blaming and people who proudly wear their racism for all to see, avoid Daddy and his forum, like Steven Kesslar decided to.

It's easy.  And you'll feel better.

Such a short post!

[SexyAsianStud]

8 hours ago, stevenkesslar said:

Let me turn that into a positive statement.

If you don't want to see examples of victim blaming and people who proudly wear their racism for all to see, avoid Daddy and his forum, like Steven Kesslar decided to.

It's easy.  And you'll feel better.

And as if we needed further proof of Mr. Kesslar's helpful assertion, I made the fatal error of browsing the daddy forum just now and came across this piece of brilliance:

I was so happy when Obama got elected since I though all that crap about black people getting discriminated was going to end.....but now is even worse than before.
I dont understand if black people are SO discriminated how come they dominate all the track and field sport events, the basketball competitions, in MMA, Bellator most of the time black fighters dominate and will win over caucasians, asians and first nations fighters .....where is the discrimination here???....they are there and earn BIG $$$ because they are GOOD at it!!!....they are strong, have stamina and have better reaction times than the others......
I am sure that if I reacted the same way those poor black guys did when they got arrested I would also get the same treatment......but it wont be in the news.....

But, then again, I am sure there are good people.... on both sides!

[Latbear4blk]

2 hours ago, SexyAsianStud said:

And as if we needed further proof of Mr. Kesslar's helpful assertion, I made the fatal error of browsing the daddy forum just now and came across this piece of brilliance:

I was so happy when Obama got elected since I though all that crap about black people getting discriminated was going to end.....but now is even worse than before.
I dont understand if black people are SO discriminated how come they dominate all the track and field sport events, the basketball competitions, in MMA, Bellator most of the time black fighters dominate and will win over caucasians, asians and first nations fighters .....where is the discrimination here???....they are there and earn BIG $$$ because they are GOOD at it!!!....they are strong, have stamina and have better reaction times than the others......
I am sure that if I reacted the same way those poor black guys did when they got arrested I would also get the same treatment......but it wont be in the news.....

But, then again, I am sure there are good people.... on both sides!

Can you share who wrote that? I am not going back over there, it is against my religion.

[SexyAsianStud]

4 minutes ago, Latbear4blk said:

Can you share who wrote that? I am not going back over there, it is against my religion.

You are wiser than I am, my friend..... That site should be off limits to fair thinking individuals across our land.

The person who, by the way, went on to post this:

Do you really think that all these protests after these incidents are going to make race relations better in this country??....do you think that only one side is guilty? Don't you think that certain black people do stuff that helps those racist stereotypes to continue??

goes by the nickname of Gaothanear and is unknown to me, so is probably just a reincarnation of one of the other racists on that board.

May he experience eternal agony.
 

[JKane]

 

 

 

 

[Suckrates]

1 hour ago, SexyAsianStud said:

You are wiser than I am, my friend..... That site should be off limits to fair thinking individuals across our land.

The person who, by the way, went on to post this:

Do you really think that all these protests after these incidents are going to make race relations better in this country??....do you think that only one side is guilty? Don't you think that certain black people do stuff that helps those racist stereotypes to continue??

goes by the nickname of Gaothanear and is unknown to me, so is probably just a reincarnation of one of the other racists on that board.

May he experience eternal agony.
 

@Gaothanear has been a member over there since 2016 but has only posted 72 times, therefore considered a lurker... He crawled out from his roach hole to let us all know what HIS side is in all of this, as if we cared.....  Dont think he is a reincarnation of any of the usual suspects, but certainly a supporter of that team.  Look, everyone has some opinion and should be able to give it, but when common sense doesnt prevail, I turn-off.....  I dont understand what these people need to see or hear to make them see what's actually going on.   And Trump will continue to fan the flames and promote anarchy because it is better for his side.   Then since he is the Law & Order President, he will swoop in with his WonderWoman cuffs and handle the situation and CLAIM hero status....  Anyone can see his demented plan......

And then today he releases this sick, twisted LIE about "someone" he knows being on a plane and seeing it "filled with rioters, looters and anarchists" simply because they were all "wearing dark clothing"......  No proof, just word of mouth....   YES girl fan those flames of fear and terror,  spread that FAKE NEWS....  it will get you another 4 years ?    

[Latbear4blk]

3 hours ago, SexyAsianStud said:

You are wiser than I am, my friend..... That site should be off limits to fair thinking individuals across our land.

The person who, by the way, went on to post this:

Do you really think that all these protests after these incidents are going to make race relations better in this country??....do you think that only one side is guilty? Don't you think that certain black people do stuff that helps those racist stereotypes to continue??

goes by the nickname of Gaothanear and is unknown to me, so is probably just a reincarnation of one of the other racists on that board.

May he experience eternal agony.
 

Wow. He is a new club member, I see. I do not recognize his name. I am glad I am keeping myself away from that.

[Buddy2]

He may have been around for a while but all his posts have been about escorts, not Politics.

[Latbear4blk]

30 minutes ago, Buddy2 said:

He may have been around for a while but all his posts have been about escorts, not Politics.

Well, my participation in Politics may have been loud now and then, but most of my contributions have always been on escorts. Yet, I do not recognize that name.

[stevenkesslar]

11 hours ago, Suckrates said:

 

BUT, in Trumps latest words of eloquence and brilliance, he paints Rittenhouse as the victim and defends his actions....   "They attacked HIM, and if he didnt shoot he may have been killed".  So Herr Trump, he did nothing wrong, Right ?  

He's just one of those "very fine people" that was in the wrong place at the wrong time...... His PARDON is in the mail, along with the McCloskey's.... 

VOTE THIS RACIST MUTHERFUCKER OUT !!!!!!!

I think President Toxic is making lots of mistakes that will bite him in the ass in the end. 

First, he's coming dangerously close to endorsing violent organizations.  This would be like Biden saying anti-fa is just a bunch of great patriots.  There's no way to argue that whoever killed the guy in Portland did so in self-defense.  So it's not quite apples to apples.  President Toxic can argue that vigilantes have the right to take up guns in self defense.  But many people hear that as a toxic President just fanning the flames. 

Biden is the only candidate who has unambiguously condemned anyone who kills, for any reason, and instead focused on trying to get back to unity.  I think it's better when he lets the Black mother of a guy that was shot seven times say that for him.  Even though Biden has now wrapped his heart around the message  publicly and passionately.

The main mistake President Toxic is making is the same one he's been making his entire Presidency.  He plays to his rabid base.  I get that he has no choice.  If he wasn't a racist who race-baited, he wouldn't be President.   You can argue that Democrats, or at least the forces of history, are partly to blame.  When a better and more decent man ran in 2012, he lost.  Some Republicans decided that the only way to win was, to quote one analysis, "to bring a gun to a cultural knife fight."  Need I mention that the McCloskeys fit right in to this party?

Which is not to say that every Republican - or even most Republicans - agree with President Toxic.  That's the problem for him.  They don't.  That's why they abandoned the party in droves in 2018. And seem to be primed to do it again.  To quote Michael Steele, the former Black head of the RNC in happier  times, "How do you stop the slide once it starts?"  He was specifically talking about whether Republican Senators can hold on and only lose four seats.  Or whether the slide will take out more like seven.  

I won't replaster this thread with all the poll data I posted in the Lichtman thread.  But Biden's positions on race and crime, at least as I hear them, play to where the vast majority of Americans are at.  True, 30 % of Independents think Biden will make America less safe.  That suggests to me that those "Independents" are basically conservative Republicans who just don't want to own the stench of Trump's Republican Party.  But almost half of Independents think there will be "more violence" if President Toxic has four more. years. 

That's Independents.  Not Democrats.  If pro-Trump Republicans think it's awful that Democrats are blaming President Toxic for the violence happening in "their" cities, maybe they should have a heart to heart with all these Independents who believe that President Toxic is a racist.  And that more of him means more violence.

Trump's approval rating with Black voters soars by 60% during RNC: poll

HarrisX-Hill survey finds Black support increases from 15% to 24%

As a Democrat who wants more racial equality and justice, I hope that's true.  Having two political parties that compete for the votes of Blacks (and suburban women, and White working class men) is a good thing.  This is, of course, why the Republicans put Michael Steele, a principled economic conservative, in charge of their party in better times.

In terms of the big picture and trends, as the article above notes, President Toxic lost a sliver of White approval even as he was gaining among Blacks during the RNC.  I'm going to assume, or at least hope, that those Whites were ones who couldn't quite stomach the McCloskeys.  As far as the Black speakers went, they mostly did a good job, I thought.  The particular Harris poll cited showed President Toxic with a -12 % net disapproval rating after the show was over.  That is actually three points worse than the current - 9 %  net disapproval rating the RCP average shows.  So if conservatives are looking for the silver lining in the cloud,  I'd rather have them conclude that they will maybe get more Black support if they focus on creating a party that is actually more inviting to Blacks.

The conservative-slanted article above points out that the message that Blacks pushed at the RNC offsets what "Democrats" are saying:  that President Toxic is a racist.  That's fair enough. They don't mention that one reason President Toxic may have a 24 % ceiling with Blacks, even after a week of his very own reality TV show, is that in any poll I've seen at least 3 out of 4 Blacks say he's a racist.  It's a bit of a hard sell for Whites, or even Black conservatives, to argue that 3 in 4 Blacks are stupid.  But if 10 % of the Black community took this as an opportunity to think that maybe President Toxic isn't so racist after all, I'm good with that.  The reality TV show is over, and we're back to reality.  So let's just see.

It may have also helped President Toxic's cause that even some of the thoughtful speakers, like Jack Brewer, didn't tell the truth.  I know, it's shocking!   

Black Lives Matter is not trying to destroy the nuclear family, as he stated.  Maybe he lied.  I'd tend to give him the benefit of the doubt.  I think it may be a perfect symbol for how, and why, we are at civil war.  We try to disrupt a system that we view as unjust.  They genuinely see that as destruction. 

Why would Black Lives Matter speak up for Black single Moms, and Black queer Dads?  Isn't it obvious?  They must be socialists out to destroy America and ................................. wait for it .................................. abolish the suburbs.

This article speaks the truth about Black Lives Matter, in their own words:

Quote

“We make our spaces family-friendly and enable parents to fully participate with their children. We dismantle the patriarchal practice that requires mothers to work “double shifts” so that they can mother in private even as they participate in public justice work.

We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

We foster a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking, or rather, the belief that all in the world are heterosexual (unless s/he or they disclose otherwise).” —BLM website

 

I can easily imagine that the same people who had a problem with LGBTQ rights and same sex marriage read that and go, "What the fuck?"

This is a very big part of my problem with Daddy, and all the Republicans I've known for a few decades or so who I am no longer friends with. 

I think of it as "free ride" racism.  The people who should understand the importance of tolerance and diversity the most - because our liberties and lives and even websites depend on it - are instead spouting racist nonsense. 

As a belief system, I can see how you can argue that Gay Lives Matter and Drag Queens Matter and Gay Marriage Matters, but Black Lives Matter is racist.  There's a pretty good parallel with the same sex marriage fight.  As a volunteer knocking on doors, we targeted non-White areas where people know what discrimination is. So I spoke with a number of Black Evangelicals who thought slavery and homosexuality both involved sin.  For them, it was a sin for Whites to enslave Blacks.  And it was a sin for a man to have sex with another man - let alone marry him.  But they could at least empathize with the fact that I felt discriminated against. 

As a practical matter, there are more Blacks than Gays or lesbians or transgender people.  So if we're playing our cards that way, it's not too late for us to lose the game.  We are a minority among minorities.  Had Justice Bork been the swing vote rather than Justice Roberts, who knows if we'd have same sex marriage today?  We probably would.  But that's because we won the culture war that was fought around the concepts of acceptance and diversity and empathy.

I think they want a free ride.  They want to be able to have Gay rights, and hire escorts, and maybe even wear a dress.  But they won't stick up for Blacks who are protecting our rights, like Black Lives Matter.  And who are pushing things that I suspect most Americans frankly find easier to stomach than an old Gay guy who likes to wear a dress.  

If we assume that the 24 % of Blacks who are open to Jack Brewer's message also feel the way he does about this "nuclear family" stuff, that's good news.  At some time fairly recently, we got to the point where the majority of Blacks now accept same sex marriage.  (It's mostly religion, not race, in that so many Blacks are Evangelicals.) I think the only segment of society left that still harbors majority opposition and disdain is White evangelicals.

This is what "free ride" racism means to me.  They expect acceptance and diversity for themselves.  Or at least tolerance and safety.  But they won't give it back.  News flash:  this is not only kind of unfair.  It's also a great way to lose, not to win.  President Toxic, aka President Divide And Rule, gets this.

In fairness, I know from years of experience that many of these Gay conservatives aren't .......................................... Gay conservatives.  They don't culturally identify as Gay.  They are not out.  They didn't fight for same sex marriage and don't especially care.  I could name the ones who were more excited by bombs dropping on Iraq than by winning same sex marriage, but I won't.  They have every right to their beliefs, and their prejudices.  So it's not like they really want a free ride.  They're still back in the Greater America that encouraged people like them to just shut up and be happy enough in the closet.  Just like Brewer obviously thinks Blacks should be happy with what they've already got with President Toxic.  What's not to like about "our first Black President", to quote him?

For the conservatives who are openly Gay, and have been for a long time, this is definitely a free ride.  These two words I cited already best sum up the problem for me:   "disruption" and "destruction".  As in, BLM wants to disrupt things so that Black drag queens or Black Queer Dads feel safe.  Many White conservatives, and presumably Brewer, see that as "destruction".  

And it's not just President Toxic.  I keep going back to Jeb Bush's line about same sex marriage:  "Thousands of years of religion and culture are being wiped away at warp speed.  And I just don't get it." 

He didn't get it, of course.  But it's basically the same resistance.   What we saw as disruption to make things better they saw as destroying religion, marriage, and culture.

The disruption is happening, and will likely accelerate,  because we want to move forward.  I think especially on issues like race and crime and LGBTQ rights, there's a majority that wants to move forward.  We'll know soon.

To end where I started, this is why I'm glad Brewer spoke at the RNC.  And I'm glad there is a debate. 

My guess, sadly, is that most older White conservatives just can't change.  Even the Gay (or closeted) ones.  These attitudes and prejudices are just too deeply ingrained.  And with President Toxic, they get constant reinforcement that they're not racist.  It's Black Lives Matter and the Obamas that are racist.  If President Toxic morphs into Ex-President Toxic, leader of the Toxic Cult, many of these folks will be with him until they die. 

That said, just like with same sex marriage, many will come around.  Biden is basically doing what worked for us on same sex marriage.  Go the high road.  Call on people to have an open mind.  And especially an open heart.  We taught the world it works.  We should be taking a victory lap for that.  And hopefully another one in November.

This is all helping me to process how I feel.  I feel sad a lot. To me, the fact that the free ride racists see it the way they do is a tragedy.

Edited September 2, 2020 by stevenkesslar

[stevenkesslar]

10 hours ago, Lucky said:

Such a short post!

And that, of course, is an irresistible set up.   

I hope you all cut me some slack.  For a long time, as an escort, my motto was even simpler:  Fuck 'em.

[Suckrates]

@stevenkesslar, I hope you can appreciate the fact that a lot of people are moved by FEAR,  and Trump is working overtime to stoke those flames, and is doing quite a convincing job of it.

Couple that with the images we see on TV of the riots, and the "MIS-information" that is being spread, Trump DOES seem like the savior and Law & Order President, eventhough any SANE person can see his rhetoric is ALL smoke and mirrors bullshit propaganda.   Creating mass hysteria seems to be Trumps ticket to RE-election .   Lets not become too complacent of a Biden win here and create a "Hillary will Win" corona-virus bubble that we will live in till election day, only to be slammed in the face with another Trump WIN.....(a VERY possible outcome)...

Lets keep our eye on the prize, be diligent, and counter every bit of scare propaganda our DICK-tator puts out there... We cannot let him go unchecked or unchallenged.  and on election day we need the biggest tsunami of Voters to VOTE, vote vote. 

Let's not count Trump out until he is actually OUT !!!!!!  

[Suckrates]

 

And when HE'S gone.....we can All REJOICE !!!!!!!!

[Suckrates]

 

Perhaps THIS will remind you that BLM,  more and more EVERY day !   (something HAS to get that message across)

 

[SexyAsianStud]

14 hours ago, Latbear4blk said:

Well, my participation in Politics may have been loud now and then, but most of my contributions have always been on escorts. Yet, I do not recognize that name.

You do realize, I am sure, that the loudest and most obnoxious of the right wingers posting on the politics forum there have no authentic connection to our community and have landed on the site only to disrupt it

[Suckrates]

1 hour ago, SexyAsianStud said:

You do realize, I am sure, that the loudest and most obnoxious of the right wingers posting on the politics forum there have no authentic connection to our community and have landed on the site only to disrupt it

But much like the "Imaginary plane full of Anarchists" hired by the Left to disrupt wreak havoc in areas they dont belong,    Daddy is always there with his full support of them.... yet I rarely see them on time-Out,  while if anyone smears or name calls the Orange Asshole, they get BANNED for it......  It's just how things are these days.  THOSE people are living in an "alternate Universe"   where all reality and normalcy has been suspended. 

[SexyAsianStud]

59 minutes ago, Suckrates said:

But much like the "Imaginary plane full of Anarchists" hired by the Left to disrupt wreak havoc in areas they dont belong,    Daddy is always there with his full support of them.... yet I rarely see them on time-Out,  while if anyone smears or name calls the Orange Asshole, they get BANNED for it......  It's just how things are these days.  THOSE people are living in an "alternate Universe"   where all reality and normalcy has been suspended. 

if anyone needed an additional reason to never visit the daddy's site... even out of curiosity...

there is an impassioned argument going on there between supporters of the child who killed 3 people in kenosha and those who believe he needs to be held accountable for his actions

"His actions were a clear cut case of self-defense"

yikes. some things can't be "unseen". 

Edited September 2, 2020 by SexyAsianStud
omitted a clause