Guest fountainhall Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 Freedom of Information Act requests have already documented that LBJ, McNamara and Allen Dulles knew about and helped stage the Gulf of Tolkin farce I have been away for a few days and am not sure how this cropped up. But since it has, here are some comments. Paul Hendrickson's devastating expose ("The Living") of McNamara's supposed 1995 mea culpa memoir ("In Retrospect: The Tragedy and Lessons of Vietnam") says this of the Gulf of Tonkin incident - ". . . the Gulf of Tonkin incident . . . surrounding which the muddiness and general craftiness on the part of the policymakers could fill a book and still not get to the way they had provoked it and used it to their own ends and for their own devices." McNamara in his book says this: "For 3 decades intense debate has swirled around what happened in the gulf; how we reported what had happened to the Congress and the public; the authority we sought from Congress in reaction to events: and how the executive branch under two preseidents used that authority over the years that followed." He then lists a number of key questions and his own answers. "Question 1. Attacks by North Vietnamese patrol boats against US destroyers reportedly occurred on 2 separate occasions. Did the attacks actually occur? "Answer. The evidence of the first attack is indisputable. . . I learned in a 1995 meeting in Hanoi with General Vo Nguyen Giap that the presumed (second) attack did not occur." "Question 5. Was the Johnson administration justified in basing its subsequent military actions in Vietnam - including the enormous expansion of force levels - on the Tonkin Gulf Resolution? Answer. Absolutely not." Quote
KhorTose Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 I have not died just very busy at work. I watched the original PBS series (called the fifty years war) which is over 2 1/2 hrs long. They spend most of the series discussing the politics and very little on the 1948 war. The title Dar Yassim rebuked is not PBS's title, but the man who posted that video. The real video is on utube and can be found at Amazon, however there is no difference just different interpetations. The video does show: The village was not a target of the army. The village was friendly, had declared neutrality, and (in the end) protected by Jewish settlers. People where put up against the wall and shot. They did attack in the middle of the night, and the method was to toss ganades into homes. The village was armed, but so was everyone in Palestine. What they left out: The village had aided the Haganah, and had signed a pact with them. Many eyewitness accounts that say many more then 18 people were slaughtered. The red cross account The Meir Paul statement. A very good Jewish web site that accepts the responsiblity and a post many facts: http://www.middle-east.yu-hu.com/peacewatch/dy/dycg.htm Meir Pail’s account: http://middle-east.yu-hu.com/peacewatch/dy/dypail.htm Please check out the Wiki site I earlier gave the citation for were there are dozens of citations that you can indepently check out. Many of the best evidence comes from statements of Jewish people who were part of, or had first hand knowledge of the massacre. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre All I can say is there is no doubt in my mind that these people where assasinated by the Irgun, in order to spread terror, any more then there is no doubt in my mind that holocost happened. History is not an interpetation, but a collection of documents, physical evidence, and first hand accounts. Most of the world, including PBS, have had no problem calling what happened at Dier Yassin an atrocity. Quote
KhorTose Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 I am going to be very busy for the next couple of weeks. If this discussion is going to continue, someone else is going to have to present the facts. By the way, the PBS documentary is very good and does lay a lot of blame on politicans on both sides of the issue. Quote
Guest slackersam Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 Word. I have not died just very busy at work. I watched the original PBS series (called the fifty years war) which is over 2 1/2 hrs long. They spend most of the series discussing the politics and very little on the 1948 war. The title Dar Yassim rebuked is not PBS's title, but the man who posted that video. The real video is on utube and can be found at Amazon, however there is no difference just different interpetations. The video does show: The village was not a target of the army. The village was friendly, had declared neutrality, and (in the end) protected by Jewish settlers. People where put up against the wall and shot. They did attack in the middle of the night, and the method was to toss ganades into homes. The village was armed, but so was everyone in Palestine. What they left out: The village had aided the Haganah, and had signed a pact with them. Many eyewitness accounts that say many more then 18 people were slaughtered. The red cross account The Meir Paul statement. A very good Jewish web site that accepts the responsiblity and a post many facts: http://www.middle-east.yu-hu.com/peacewatch/dy/dycg.htm Meir Pail’s account: http://middle-east.yu-hu.com/peacewatch/dy/dypail.htm Please check out the Wiki site I earlier gave the citation for were there are dozens of citations that you can indepently check out. Many of the best evidence comes from statements of Jewish people who were part of, or had first hand knowledge of the massacre. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre All I can say is there is no doubt in my mind that these people where assasinated by the Irgun, in order to spread terror, any more then there is no doubt in my mind that holocost happened. History is not an interpetation, but a collection of documents, physical evidence, and first hand accounts. Most of the world, including PBS, have had no problem calling what happened at Dier Yassin an atrocity. Quote
PattayaMale Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 Former US President Jimmy Carter appeared today on Aljezer (SP?) news. He expressed that Israel did not open the border crossing as they had promised. This left, as said earlier, the population of Gaza without basic necessities. After continued refusal to open the border to allow food, medicine, diesel fuel, etc. into Gaza, a single rocket was fired and landed in a vacant part of Israel occupied territory. When people are being deprived normal necessities, how should they protest? America is the true culprit here. The blind support for Israel is not justified. If America had not given the aid to Israel and gave it to the Palestinians, Israel would not exist today in my view. Quote
Guest slackersam Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 My feeling is that if we had stopped supporting Israel a decade or more ago that Israel would have been forced to make peace with it's neighbors and the world would be a much safer place today. Quote
Guest fountainhall Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 I agree - to a large extent. But whether we like it or not, America is not going to withdraw support from Israel. So pressure should be put on the US to support the Palestinians with similar amounts of cash so they can rebuild their homes and communities and then to become a fully functioning state. At the same time, Israel must be persuaded finally to accept some of the US resolutions re returning land. I believe Hamas became the force it is within the Palestinian community primarily because it is a social organisation providing schools, hospitals, libraries and other community services. Sure, it's also a paramilitary outfit, but if the US and its allies were providing the funds to enable the citizens to enjoy the basic services Hamas provides, I suspect Hamas could become either marginalised or a non-violent organisation - just as has happened with the IRA paramilitaries in Northern Ireland. Quote
PattayaMale Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 Soi 10 Tom sent me this today January 30 As reported by BBC NEWS as stated by Israeli Human Rights NGOs: Association for Civil Rights in Israel, Physicians for Human Rights, B'Tselem, PCATI, Yesh Din and Adalah. Israeli NGO's condemn treatment of Gaza prisoners, Inhuman conditions rival Nazi concentration camps. Attorney Bana Shoughry-Badarne, Legal Director of PCATI, said the findings were "particularly objectionable" as the Israeli military had repeatedly stressed that it "prepared at length for the Gaza operation". "It seems that, during these lengthy preparations, the basic rights of the detainees and captives were completely forgotten," Once again proof proof that the vicitim (Warsaw) of great abuse becomes the abuser (Gaza). http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7856372.stm Wednesday, 28 January 2009 E-mail this to a friend Printable version Gaza detainee treatment 'inhuman' It is not known how many Palestinians were detained during the operation Palestinians seized during Israel's operation in Gaza faced "appalling" conditions and "inhuman" treatment, Israeli human rights groups have said. The seven groups say they have gathered 20 testimonies which indicate detainees were kept in pits without shelter, toilets or adequate food and water. Some detainees also said they had been held near tanks and in combat areas, the groups said. The Israeli military says it is investigating the allegations. The accounts were gathered by the Public Committee Against Torture in Israel (PCATI) and Hamoked, the Center for the Defense of the Individual, from Palestinians now being held in Israel. 'Gross violation' "The reports indicate that... many detainees - minors as well as adults - were held for many hours - sometimes for days - in pits dug in the ground, exposed to bitter cold and harsh weather, handcuffed and blindfolded," the groups said in a statement. We spent two days there without any food, water or blankets... The soldiers kept beating anyone who dared ask for anything Majdi Muhammad Ayid al-Atar, northern Gaza "These pits lacked basic sanitary facilities... while food and shelter, when provided, were limited, and the detainees went hungry," it said. The groups accused the military of "gross violation of international humanitarian law" by holding some of the detainees close to tanks. Incidents involving "extreme violence and humiliation by soldiers and interrogators" were also reported, the statement said, without giving details. "We were handcuffed and blindfolded. They put us in a three-meter deep ditch with some 70 other people," Majdi Muhammad Ayid al-Atar, 43, from northern Gaza described, in one of the testimonies. "We spent two days there without any food, water or blankets. They also didn't let us go to the toilet. Afterwards they moved us to another ditch. The soldiers kept beating anyone who dared ask for anything," he was quoted as saying. Lengthy preparation The groups have addressed a written complaint to the Military Judge Advocate General, and Israel's Attorney General, Meni Mazuz. Attorney Bana Shoughry-Badarne, Legal Director of PCATI, said the findings were "particularly objectionable" as the Israeli military had repeatedly stressed that it "prepared at length for the Gaza operation". "It seems that, during these lengthy preparations, the basic rights of the detainees and captives were completely forgotten," she said. She said the groups had the names of 29 people who had been detained, 25 of whom were still being held. The other groups were the Association for Civil Rights in Israel, Physicians for Human Rights, B'Tselem, Yesh Din and Adalah Quote
Guest shebavon Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 Troubling charges indeed. It will be interesting to see the Israeli response. It may be a sad legacy of the Bush years if the world now feels the Geneva Convention no longer applies. Quote
Guest shebavon Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 This is also from BBC News. Israel 'no mercy' officer rebuked "The Israeli military says it has "severely reprimanded" an officer who distributed a booklet to troops that advised they show no mercy to enemies. The unnamed officer distributed the booklet to troops during the Israeli offensive in Gaza. It said the soldiers were fighting "murderers". The military said its chief rabbi, Gen Avichai Rontzki, did not know of the booklet before it was given out. A rights group said the booklet bordered on "incitement to racism". The army described the case as an isolated incident. The booklet cites an ultra-nationalist civilian rabbi who supports the Jewish settler movement in the West Bank. The rights group, Yesh Din, said the booklet's contents could be "interpreted as a call to act outside the confines of international laws of war". Quote
Guest slackersam Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 The problem is that the violence breeds extremists on both sides. Just wait until The Flying Spaghetti Monster claims Jerusalem. Quote
Guest shebavon Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 The problem is that the violence breeds extremists on both sides. Just wait until The Flying Spaghetti Monster claims Jerusalem. I agree with your first sentence, but do not get your Spaghetti comment. Quote
Gaybutton Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 I . . . do not get your Spaghetti comment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster Quote
KhorTose Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 My feeling is that if we had stopped supporting Israel a decade or more ago that Israel would have been forced to make peace with it's neighbors and the world would be a much safer place today. Out of fairness to Israel the US has pressured her with that threat on more then one occasion, and Israel has done her best to comply. The Oslo accords still stand as the closest anyone has come to achieving peace in the Middle East. It was a fair deal and a good solid platform that could have been used to achieve peace. Instead of leaping to that chance, not enough pressure was put on Ha mas or Arafat, for that matter, by the Arab countries to accept the deal and work within it. It takes two to tango and two to make peace. We can pressure Israel all we want, but without the Arab nations doing the same to elements of the Palestinians we get nowhere. The key right now seems to be Iran's unqualified support of Ha mas, not to mention Hezbollah and Syria. Sadly Israel may have shot herself in the foot over Gaza. To lose an ally like Turkey, makes her cause and her existence all that more perilous. Whats worse is Netanyahu is running for Prime Minister. If he wins even more bloodshed, possibly on a much greater scale, will follow. I'm back for a while, and this is still one of the sanest and sensible discussion I've seen on any board, with the possible exception of the flying spagetti monster comment. Quote
Guest slackersam Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 I'd be seriously offended if anyone tried to deny the followers of the Flying Spaghetti Monster their right of return to Jerusalem. Quote
Guest shebavon Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 I'd be seriously offended if anyone tried to deny the followers of the Flying Spaghetti Monster their right of return to Jerusalem. Seriously now, this Pastafarian would never think of doing so. Welcome back Khor Tose. I agree with your above analysis. That has been the saddest part of this 60 years. The Palestiians being misled, have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity, and seem to always end up in worse shape than they were. I do hope Pres. Obama and his new team which includes the Arab-American former Senator George Mitchell has better luck. Quote
Guest slackersam Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 Isn't that where the FSM kicked the Parmesan cheese out of the temples? Quote
