Sex is Fine in Pattaya - As Long As You're Not Norwegian

[KhorTose]

If the USA has been prosecuting people for sex with those who have reached age of consent within their own country, I am not familiar with any such cases.

 

I could not agree more. All of this talk of entrapment and fanatical police forces looking to hang gay men for sex with minors is bullshit put out by the people who like little children 13-. Believe what you see and read in the news, and not what many on some message boards would have you believe. The movement to protect kids is not a straight plot to convict gay men, it is not composed of homophobes or religious do-gooders (for the most part). It is not the bible or some religious edict that motivates the people who hate pedos, but the reality that sex between adults and children, harms the child, in some cases, makes it impossible for that child to ever function as an adult. What is even worse is that many of these abused children will themselves go on to become adults who abuse children, giving authorities even more reason to stop this destructive cycle. This is our best scientific evidence that says this---not some bible.

I am sure that many of us, for very good reasons, do not trust the authorities. Many of us have had bad experiences with society over being homosexual. Nevertheless, when we allow these Pedos to hide in our community, we are owning their actions and giving ourselves a bad name for doing so.

So next time you see a pedo picking up a little boy, or find someone advocating for them, speak up and do all of us a favor.

[Guest slackersam]

I'd tend to agree with you, but the pornography prosecution of Max Hardcore last year makes me think that the law is getting weird on sex enforcement.

[Bob]

I'm with GB, Khor Tose, etc., on this issue.

 

Some posters (here or other boards) have just railed against the US because it chooses to prosecute its own citizens who travel to other countries to have sex with persons under the age of 18. Those posters argue that the US has no business saying what anybody does in another country or that somehow it's wrong to intervene because it's legal to have sex with somebody under 18 in that other country.

 

The US certainly has its issues (and makes a lot of mistakes both home and abroad) but the intent of this particular law is to prevent the sexual exploitation of minors. The US only enacted the law after years of inaction by other countries (the continual reporting of foreigners diddling kiddies in Southeast Asia does eventually have an effect). If the law only stops a few pedophiles, it's fine by me - it's about time somebody did something. It's fairly obvious to all of us that Thailand really doesn't give a rat's ass to seriously stop the problem (sorry, might as well call a spade a spade).

 

And, as GB indicated, I'm not aware of a single prosecution under the law that involved a 16 or 17 year old (but, since the US has the right to make laws that apply to its own citizens, I wouldn't really care if they enforced it strictly).

 

P.S. As to the prosecution of the so-called "Max Hardcore" [he's a 50-something year old who produces and stars in porn films where the big ticket item is to have his little (but legal-age) starlets dress up and act like pre-pubescent girls], I believe his prosecution and conviction rested mainly on other laws. In any event, from my point of view, he's a slimeball and gains no sympathy from me.

[Guest slackersam]

I haven't said anything against the law or the US. I was just curious if it would pass constitutional muster. I'm not sure that they can regulate activities of their citizens outside their borders.

 

If I go to Amsterdam and get stoned, they won't arrest me when I come home, for example.

[Bob]

I'm not sure that they can regulate activities of their citizens outside their borders.

 

Sure they can and they've done it for years mainly in other areas (income tax laws, trade secret laws, etc.). And the Courts have largely upheld the constitutionality of the laws. There's been little issue with these laws by US citizens (and, if you're not a US citizen, then it doesn't affect you at all).

[Guest slackersam]

If I violate the American income tax law when I'm abroad I'm still technically committing a crime in or against the united states. I'm essentially stealing from the United States government.

 

And if I'm committing trade secrets violations they prosecute me because it effects businesses in the United States.

 

That's a very different thing.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

Of course the US can make and enforce laws regarding its own citizens where ever we may be. When we travel to other countries we are in some ways ambassadors of the US and our behavior reflects on the US. What part of the constitution may be violated? I am all for getting the people who abuse children off the streets and behind bars where they belong. For those who want to try to justify their behavior because they are mentally ill, I saw the abusers should still be taken off the streets and put into treatment programs until they are cured, which, of course, we know they will never be cured. The registering of abusers seems like a good idea, but how many abusers have gone on to commit further crimes? This is not limited to men who abuse boys.

[Guest slackersam]

But we are not talking about pedos here. Remember the topic is that the Norway law targets adults who pay for sex with other adults while they are abroad.

 

And, I'm not sure you are right. We don't, for example, send our police out to Europe to kidnap american citizens when they are wanted for crimes in America. We negotiate with the government they are in for extradition - mostly because we don't have the legal right to legislate what people do outside our borders.

 

Just because I have an American passport doesn't mean I'm a slave to the laws of a country I am not living in.

[Gaybutton]

Just because I have an American passport doesn't mean I'm a slave to the laws of a country I am not living in.

My friend, where I come from that's called rationalizing. You say it doesn't mean you're a "slave" to laws of a country you're not living in. No? If you are a USA citizen, that's exactly what it means.

 

You can come up with whatever argument you want, with whatever logic you want, but that won't alter the fact that as a US citizen, you are subject to US law, even when in foreign countries. When you're in a foreign country, now you're subject to both sets of laws. It doesn't matter whether you like it or not, or whether that's acceptable to you or not. That's simply the way it is.

 

When you violate the laws, now you're at risk of arrest and prosecution. So, you have a choice. You can obey the laws or you can violate the laws and guess for yourself the degree of risk you're taking and whether whatever it is you want to do is worth the risk.

 

If it makes you feel any better, I also don't think the USA is right to impose its own laws about age of consent if you are living in a country in which the age of consent is less than 18 years old. However, until the USA decides to change that law, you are subject to it whether you like it or not and I'd obey that law if I were you.

[Guest slackersam]

Sir, you are wrong. You are obligated to pay your U.S. taxes. (Interestingly, people from the UK don't have to pay UK taxes if they are living abroad.)

 

That's it.

 

Nothing beyond that has ever made it past the Supreme Court. Your citizenship does not extend the low arm of the American law to you once you leave US shores.

 

Hence the popularity of extradition free countries.

 

No nation would ever allow the US government to enforce US law in their nation.

 

Now, you could be subject to US law, once you return to US soil - but if you don't return to US soil you are not subject to US law.

 

As to rationalizations, you hijacked a thread about adult Norwegians paying for sex with adults when they are not in Norway and decided to make it about pedophiles.

 

I just called you out on it.

[Bob]

Nothing beyond that has ever made it past the Supreme Court. Your citizenship does not extend the low arm of the American law to you once you leave US shores.

 

No nation would ever allow the US government to enforce US law in their nation.

 

Now, you could be subject to US law, once you return to US soil - but if you don't return to US soil you are not subject to US law.

 

As to rationalizations, you hijacked a thread about adult Norwegians paying for sex with adults when they are not in Norway and decided to make it about pedophiles.

 

I just called you out on it.

 

Frankly, an idiotic response. The thread moved to the related subject whether you recognize it or not.

 

As to your contention that a US citizen is not be subject to the long arm of US law outside of US borders, you are simply wrong.

 

As to your contention that "No nation would ever allow the US government to enforce law in their nation", I'm not sure what you mean by that. If you mean that the US Marshalls or FBI can't arrest in Thailand or that the US Courts can't prosecute in Thailand, you're right; however, if you mean that the US can't get Thailand to extradite a US citizen from Thailand due to that citizen being indicted in the US for breaking US laws in Thailand (or any other country), you are wrong again.

[Gaybutton]

Sir, you are wrong. You are obligated to pay your U.S. taxes. (Interestingly, people from the UK don't have to pay UK taxes if they are living abroad.)

 

That's it.

I hijacked the thread? I'm the one who started this thread in the first place. The thread evolved into what it is now long before my post.

 

In any case, while it's true that the USA can't touch you as far as physically arresting you on foreign soil, there's still plenty they can do. Revocation of your passport, for starters. The last time I was in the US embassy I personally witnessed a man having a big argument with the US Citizens Services people. He had gone to the embassy merely to have pages added to his passport. When they inspected his passport they discovered he was on a list of "deadbeat dads" who had not been paying child support. They refused to return his passport to him. He was told he would not get his passport back until he settles the debt and can prove it to the satisfaction of the embassy. I was right there and overheard the whole thing.

 

The USA can't enforce its laws on a citizen living outside the country? Tell that to the man whose passport was withheld. He's going to have a very interesting time when he needs to do his 90 day address report, renew his visa, or do anything that requires showing a passport, including bank transactions or even checking in to a hotel.

 

The point is, if you truly believe that as a USA citizen you can live in a foreign country, disregard USA laws, and do so with impunity, then the best I can tell you is go ahead and try. I hope you won't have to find out the hard way just how big a mistake you're making.

[PattayaMale]

The idea of USA laws in another country is an interesting topic, but I wonder of the the rules of evidence are the same.

 

In the US laws of entrapment (undercover police getting someone to do something they would not normally do), I believe is illegal.

 

In the case of the bar owner being asked continuously to play a cd as a ploy to affect an arrest on copyright violation, could that person be prosecuted in US court if they were a Thai citizen?

 

I just hope I never need to find out.

[Guest slackersam]

Gaybutton,

 

Again, you are talking about financial obligations, not criminal acts. And notice, they would not renew his passport - they didn't arrest him.

 

Sure, they can seize his assets in America and they can refuse to renew his paperwork - obviously, since his bank is in America and they are not obligated to give anyone a passport.

 

Also, it's his financial obligations in America that they are trying to enforce. They are not trying to make him pay child support for a child in Thailand.

 

All of this is very different from bringing criminal charges and/or arresting someone for something they do abroad that does not involve anyone or any money on American soil.

 

They simply don't have legal jurisdiction.

[Gaybutton]

They simply don't have legal jurisdiction.

Ok, have it your way. Violate the laws to your heart's content. I think I'll stick with obeying the laws, whether I'm in the USA, Thailand, or the moon.

[Guest slackersam]

And I'll obey the laws of the country I happen to be living in.