First timer in Santo Domingo (reports added)

[SolaceSoul]

20 minutes ago, Riobard said:

I didn't really care much about being excluded, but it is fascinating to read more about it, particularly since two African American members have different takes on the value of mingling therein, irrespective of racial background of the would-be entrant. . 

Hopefully, you’ve considered the obvious: that two very different individuals who are African-American may not think alike, may not look alike, may not have similar backgrounds, values habits or ethics, may not socialize the same way, may not like the same friends, may not like the same kind of sex or romantic partners, and may not even like each other.

I would hope that I wouldn’t be judged and stereotyped based on one group of loud, obnoxious, ostentatious but broke black Americans that you see sitting at one 24 hour cafe. Who knows? If you happen to talk to them (or me) in person, you very well may enjoy them... and dislike me — or vice versa. Or maybe like or dislike both. And that should be okay. Everyone doesn’t have to be best buds Good Judy Girlfriends with everyone.

[Riobard]

Thanks for the invitation to clarify, Paborn.

I would likely not work hard to join a table with multiple conversations in the context of a setting with a lot of acoustic distractions. One:one or very small group works better for me. In another example, I might not throw in the cards (or towel in a sauna setting) so fast. 

What I meant by group composition and could have expressed better is that in this case, however erroneous my perception, the membership characteristics were relatively rigidified early on. Similarly, a considerably large group of midWest aid project workers at Grand's was solely one race. 

In another example, that SolaceSoul described his travel companions as being the same race, I have to read carefully so as not to assume the reason is exclusionary. A careless interpretation on my part would forecast that any expansion of his travel crew would not diversify beyond the woke and non-broke.

Of course, in reality, the odds are the larger the group the greater the differences among members. This is, I believe, the universal law called 'regression to the mean'. 

Gregory Mitchell describes the diaspora link in relation to sex tourism in Bahia. The book Tourist Attractions that has been mentioned on the forum a few times. He made a convincing argument that in comparison to me, a white Canadian, Salvador had a distinctly different meaning for visiting African Americans. I am, admittedly, being far more simplistic than you, and perhaps too academia dependent in applying this theme to other parts of Brazil, RD, etc. And since, 99.99999999 % of all our DNA is shared, the notion that sex tourism is race-blind also holds water. 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2019 by Riobard

[Riobard]

And now the socioeconomic variable of means has been tossed in: the ostentatious yet broke Paco's group fellows and, like, whatever, my poor vocabulary for finishing ...

[SolaceSoul]

 

5 minutes ago, Riobard said:

In another example, that SolaceSoul described his travel companions as being the same race, I have to read carefully so as not to assume the reason is exclusionary. A careless interpretation on my part would forecast that any expansion of his travel crew would not diversify. Of course, in reality, the odds are the larger the group the greater the differences among members.

I can’t speak for others in groups. In my personal example, all of my travel buddies are my long term lifelong friends Stateside. I have known one for 30 years, another for 26, another for 20, another for 9. Two women who I also often travel with, I have known one for 32 years. I often travel solo, but when I do not, the people  that I travel with are friend that I have known forever and trust. I don’t just pick up stragglers on the road or message board chatters and decide to do trips abroad. And I don’t do “new friends” very easily. So, I have plenty in common with my travel crew, other than just being African-American or Latin American. Diversity is the least of our concerns when we get together.

 Gregory Mitchell describes the diaspora link in relation to sex tourism in Bahia. The book Tourist Attractions that has been mentioned on the forum a few times. He made a convincing argument that in comparison to me, a white Canadian, Salvador had a distinctly different meaning for visiting African Americans. I am, admittedly, being far more simplistic than you, and perhaps too academia dependent in applying this theme to other parts of Brazil, RD, etc. 

Salvador — as well as most parts of the African Diaspora — have (or should have) a special connection to African-Americans and anyone of African descent. That is one major reason that you might see many African-Americans traveling there and other places together. 

[SolaceSoul]

13 minutes ago, Riobard said:

And now the socioeconomic variable of means has been tossed in: the ostentatious yet broke Paco's group fellows and, like, whatever, my poor vocabulary for finishing ...

Loud, obnoxious, broke and cheap is no way to travel. But it’s very American.

[SolaceSoul]

@Riobard, surely, you’ve heard the term “Ugly American” used in its most current context? It’s more than just an old Brando movie. Unfortunately, I hear the phrase whenever I travel because some Ugly American is Ugly Americaning.

”Ugly American" is a term used to refer to perceptions of loud, arrogant, demeaning, thoughtless, ignorant, and ethnocentric behavior of Americancitizens mainly abroad, but also at home. Although the term is usually associated with or applied to travelers and tourists, it also applies to U.S. corporate businesses in the international arena.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugly_American_(pejorative)

[paborn]

Gregory Mitchell describes the diaspora link in relation to sex tourism in Bahia. The book Tourist Attractions that has been mentioned on the forum a few times. He made a convincing argument that in comparison to me, a white Canadian, Salvador had a distinctly different meaning for visiting African Americans. I am, admittedly, being far more simplistic than you, and perhaps too academia dependent in applying this theme to other parts of Brazil, RD, etc. And since, 99.99999999 % of all our DNA is shared, the notion that sex tourism is race-blind also holds water. 

 

He also made it clear, at least to me, that exploring the roots of Afro American heritage in Bahia was open to exploration to all and sex was another  vehicle to explore it. He even noted white women who made the journey.  I believe his central theme was inclusive not exclusive. Sex was just another avenue to explore. A sort of bedroom laboratory.

I don't read Dominican history because I have purely a scholarly intent but because I want to feel closer to the boy I care about. I create the recipes in my kitchen, I listen to the music and practice the language. All to grow closer to the culture and thus to those I make love to. The same phenomenon drives me with Asia. When I prepare for a trip to Thailand I start rereading Thai history and novels set there. When I found myself attracted to the Vietnamese workers in Thai bars I began the same explorations.

Having a "different" meaning from those whose roots are in West African does not mean better or deeper or even more - just different.

Salvador — as well as most parts of the African Diaspora — have (or should have) a special connection to African-Americans and anyone of African descent. That is one major reason that you might see many African-Americans traveling there and other places together. 

 

A point well taken. I'm of German-Austrian descent. While my family has been in the US for many generations I doubt you would approach Vienna with the reverence that I do. Yet I have no doubt you would enjoy the music, the whipped cream on cakes, the crisp schnitzel but to better appreciate the culture Prof. Mitchell would recommend that you bed an Austrian boy and share that sachertote and whipped cream with him. I strongly recommend it.

 

[Riobard]

I think we have different take-aways from what we read, eg Mitchell, but such is life. I thought we were mainly focused on sex tourism, as was the book. I, admittedly, lazily skimmed the final chapter on Bahia because when I read it years back I had no inkling of going there. 

------

Ugly Americans are an exclusive group, then, of which I cannot be a member. It seems unfair that everyone else is denied a special pejorative and can simply be douches or not, some or all of the time. 

Edited July 19, 2019 by Riobard

[SolaceSoul]

23 minutes ago, Riobard said:

Ugly Americans are an exclusive group, then, of which I cannot be a member. It seems unfair that everyone else is denied a special pejorative and can simply be douches or not, some or all of the time. 

Canadians are generally not known for the “qualities” assigned to an Ugly American. The worst a Canuck might do is polite you to death. Or in your case, write in puzzles and bore you to death. And the Québécois get a little salty if you speak English to them, not French, in Québéc. But Canucks when traveling rarely ever seem rude, arrogant, loud, obnoxious, or entitled.

[paborn]

19 minutes ago, SolaceSoul said:

Canadians are generally not known for the “qualities” assigned to an Ugly American. The worst a Canuck might do is polite you to death. Or in your case, write in puzzles and bore you to death. And the Québécois get a little salty if you speak English to them, not French, in Québéc. But Canucks when traveling rarely ever seem rude, arrogant, loud, obnoxious, or entitled.

I was once sitting , with a lovely boy naturally, in "sneakers" hustler bar on Yonge in Toronto. I innocently asked the boy, who was a steady and from Montreal, if there were differences between the French spoken there and in Paris. A passing Quebecois heard me and tore into me for this offense in a way to give lie to any "ugly American " rumors ever told.

By the way, Riobard, your are, in many ways, a delight. But, you really, truly, honestly must  work on clarity

Edited July 19, 2019 by Paborn1340

[Riobard]

13 hours ago, paborn said:

A passing Quebecois heard me and tore into me for this offense in a way to give lie to any "ugly American " rumors ever told.

By the way, Riobard, your are, in many ways, a delight. But, you really, truly, honestly must  work on clarity

I actually don't have a complete clue what the first sentence means, in spite of being largely Québécois. Perhaps it is because I find it odd that a French Canadian, other than a run-of-the-mill blowhard, would react so vehemently to that inocuous a question. Perhaps it is 'life' not 'lie'? Perhaps I don't grasp the "rumours" aspect. Was the Canuck behaving like the stereotypical UA (the colloquialism, not the novel title or protaganist)? 

As for "boy", I do believe that is an Americanism. I don't know its use in Austria, though eg "house of boys" may be an influencer. I don't recall any introduction to the term up to the point of initially completed three decades of hiring. But having TO and MTL dual citizenship, it may be loaded partly in relation to the young Portuguese Torontonian Em Jacques shoeshine lad homicide. What I can say that is that it is cringeworthy and not normalized enough in my context for me to like or accept it. I would expect to be slapped across the face if I sidled up to a hot local stripper and said "you are the hottest boy (garçon) here". Though he would likely roll with it's ATM accompaniment. The preferred term would be guy/mec. His close friend is "boy" (see below). Garçon for non-adult male or male server. Confounding, perhaps, I know. 

Adult Canadian males even in Rouyn-Noranda have inexplicably both dropped Céline like a hot potatoe and appropriated the term "my boys", where boys can be like "le weekend", ie either tongue ("boys" another Americanism, I think), for their besties, an artefact of musical genres that Québécois lads go batcrap cray cray over, dare I say racially slanted!? [Careful, Riobard.] Less incongruous a term over time in the friends circle context up here. But I don't think "boy" for trade will ever stick in a lot of places. 

[Riobard]

I have more to add about my observations, and comments about others' interpretation of my cultural acumen, in relation to Santo Domingo, having witnessed in a short time there some exceptions to some of the thesis-grade content added here. However, I cannot figure out how to import applicable "quote" function into a new topic thread and I am conscious of my role in highjacking Snowbird's thread. I think it best to punctuate what can end up an arduous back-and-forth that may offer instant gratification for some but be long forgotten after a minute and buried in whatever news cycles emerge subsequently. 

[Riobard]

*spl: Jaques (not Jacques)

[paborn]

I want apologize to the original poster for my part in taking us so far off topic. It was well intended. I also apologize to the entire board for helping to let loose Riobard into such of flood of obtuse and pseudo intellectual absurdities. My last response this is too silly for words - at least, any more words.

[paborn]

Riobard. You do have a good sense of humor. I repeat you are, in many ways, a delight. Still, I seldom understand a word you say but would love to share a good Bordeaux !

 

[Riobard]

Once again giving you the benefit of the doubt, my fille-du-roi roots accept.

[snwbrdr015]

Holy shit guys, quite an interesting discussion developed from the initial question: 'Any tips on Santo Domingo?'. And I mean this in a good way! It is helpful to get insights from different angles. One thing I understand from all of you: boys galore in Santo Domingoooooo! Shouldn't be hard to pick up guys; either working guys or 'normal' guys. 

Some insight: I am white, 41yo and European (Netherlands). I've travelled over 35 countries, and speak basic Spanish too, so I would think I am sort of street wise without being arrogant (I am here to learn too right!?). Now, not to insult the American forum members, but you guys can be quite loud compared to European standards  hahaha. Yes I know, we dutchies are quite direct, some consider us rude.....we however, call it honesty! But the Americans I come across abroad are without exception the most open en positive people one can imagine. Loud....but friendly and 100% fun tho hang out with. There are unmistakably huge differences between USA's and Europeans in how to approach different situations abroad. Once again....no insult...only personal observations. Coming from a 'the old continent'  with all its cultures, languages and a shitload of small, different countries I think I can adapt to various situations quite easily, where some Americans can be a bit naive sometimes (example: the local currency is called PESO not dollar......the name of my favorite destination is Colombia, with an 'O', not a 'U'...ColUmbia is a city in the US...) Therefore Americans are know to be overpaying for services ('yes my friend...special price for you...USA! USA!...love you!'), or easier led into harmful situations ('This is my brother, he is a taxi drive too. He rides with us. Very very safe') . Responses in this very thread show us all how different everybody is dealing with the whole Santo Domingo situation. I love it! Sure thing: it is not a dull place!!! Having that said I definitely are open to meet different people, damn sure I will scout out Paco's -it is a must see in my view!-, I love to cruise the Malecon and Parques (and Cine Lido.....hmmmm) and maybe I use the service of a middle guy. They're pro's and con's to all those options. I guess I spend my first day people watching and assessing the situation..

Bottom line: boys galore!!! whoop whoop!! yeah!!

 

I'll drop a  more specific question and can't wait to read on all of your different experiences:

I'm more interested in the next step. How to bring a guy back. My golden rule: I want to see your Cedula. I make a foto of it and email it to 'the building registration' (nope....email it to myself. As a backup). Then I take you home. All valuables (passport, creditcard, excess money) already hidden and locked away of course (tip: use the travelsafe of Pacsafe) only left with my iPhone  and amount for the guy in plain sight. In Colombia and Cuba this always worked out. No petty crime there. Never ever had any issues.  It is just the horror stories of violent robberies (at knife or gunpoint) about te DR that give me the shivers. How do you guys value this? 

[snwbrdr015]

@paborn Apologize? For what!? Speak freely, I love it! Contrary main-stream-politicly-correct-victim-thinking: I don't give a shit; no apology needed buddy. Speak freely! Speak your mind! It provides with a lot of new insights. 

Love,

Snwbrdr015

[SolaceSoul]

14 minutes ago, snwbrdr015 said:

I'm more interested in the next step. How to bring a guy back. My golden rule: I want to see your Cedula. I make a foto of it and email it to 'the building registration' (nope....email it to myself. As a backup). Then I take you home. All valuables (passport, creditcard, excess money) already hidden and locked away of course (tip: use the travelsafe of Pacsafe) only left with my iPhone  and amount for the guy in plain sight. In Colombia and Cuba this always worked out. No petty crime there. Never ever had any issues.  It is just the horror stories of violent robberies (at knife or gunpoint) about te DR that give me the shivers. How do you guys value this? 

This is probably a universally safe approach to taking tricks back to your hotel room / apartment.

[snwbrdr015]

@SolaceSoul so the terrible stories on muggings, robberies, violent attacks are more aimed ad walking the streets (at night, alone, bad areas.......like stupid people would do)? Not as much as during play in your apartment with a -as good as it gets- vetted guy?

[paborn]

OK. First, my apology was because we were  going way off topic with the discussion. some forums and members complain about this all the time. I think we did go a bit too far astray to Canada and Bahia sex tourism discussions. All valid but, perhaps, not helpful to the man who asked the initial question.

On another point, Americans have improved over the years and there are articles in regular travel journals that despair of the tendency of quieter Americans to pretend to be Canadian. I even read an article about the increased sale of backpacks with the Maple Leaf flag in the US market.  I frequent Thailand both Pattaya and Bangkok for decades and the ugly American has been greatly surpassed by the ugly Russian. I was there in January and Thai bar workers were actually talking about the mixed issue of the poor Russian economy cutting down on visitors - less loud obnoxious, demanding clients but, sadly less clients.

BY the way you should allow for spell check overrides of things like Colombia that go unnoticed by the poster. Columbia is not just once city in the U.S. but the secondary name of our nation since founding. Poetically referred to as "oh Columbia" thus the cities towns, colleges and our Federal District called: " The District of Columbia" English even spells Brasil wrong - not a real issue. As long as the intent os well taken.

I always take a photo of the front and the back ( it has the address ) of the cedula and have iPhoto sinking to both the cloud and google photo. No need to spend time emailing. I stay in Airbnb but for first timers either stay at a gay friendly hotel or use Manny, Freddy or Francisco. They don't have anything special but you don't have access to the more discreet when you first arrive. Security is a priority but don't go crazy the Colonial Zone is where you should be and it is quite safe.

Edited July 20, 2019 by Paborn1340

[SolaceSoul]

9 minutes ago, snwbrdr015 said:

@SolaceSoul so the terrible stories on muggings, robberies, violent attacks are more aimed ad walking the streets (at night, alone, bad areas.......like stupid people would do)? Not as much as during play in your apartment with a -as good as it gets- vetted guy?

If you take the steps that you laid out, and only bring one guest back to your place at a time, you should be fine. I say “should” because nothing is foolproof. On your first trip, as a pasty white gringo, even with a little Spanish on your tongue, you’re probably much safer at one of the hotels that is accustomed to sex tourists in the Colonial Zone (the Romas, Discovery, etc.) than an apartment. These hotels also take copies of or keep the cedulas while the visitor is in the room. In most cases, as an added safety precaution, you can tell the front desk not to return the ID until you come down with the visitor for him to retrieve it. 

[snwbrdr015]

Very useful info, thanks a million! I'll mark mentioned hotels on my Google map (the whole of my slut-tour is already pinned with POI's). 

Woooooo, I am so exited to go! Whahaha.

[paborn]

If your budget allows I would highly recommend the Palacio on Duarte very accommodating, does not charge extra for an overnight guest. Lovely colonial era building and good service. Check a booking service to compare rates.