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BiLatin

Photos of 2 boys I had in Havana ( Dec 17 to 23, 2018)

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14 hours ago, SolaceSoul said:

I used that metaphor to describe the photos because of the harsh, stark power / class dynamic between the geosocioeconomically privileged photo taker and the impoverished, uneducated, unaware, unexposed photo subject without privilege.

Please check your privilege.  You are aware of others abusing class dynamics but ackowledge none of your own (I actually agree with many of your sentiments). 

The reason BiLatin posts seems to have offended many is because of his verbiage. Two Guys That “I Had,” has a totally different subtext then “I played with”

The former is more of a gloating that I was able to have some guy for $10, i.e. take advantage of.  

To be clear, I am not trying to be the moral majority, I would just like people to be a little more respectful when discussing sex workers.

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I appreciate the attempts at phenomenological clarity and common ground related to respect for hires, but play is a flimsy euphemism for purchased sex. I viscerally reacted to "had" as well, but upon reflection determined that it is a valid synonym for my own behaviour. Still, play sounds better. 

That said, interestingly, it is commonplace to brag about a "good deal" in nonsexual commercial transactions and be less likely seen as crass. 

I think that the central dilemma is simple and longstanding: sex is sadly and mistakenly socially constructed as dirty and degrading. This idea does not represent any impressive insight on my part.

Sex and its overall complex bundle, like other distorted, stigmatized, and loaded topics, is also conveniently misappropriated to support one point of view over another. 

Edited by Riobard
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2 hours ago, riorockstar said:

 

To be clear, I am not trying to be the moral majority, I would just like people to be a little more respectful when discussing sex workers.

 

To the contrary, your writing indicates that your beliefs are consistent with the views of the now extinct Moral Majority organization. 

Please realize, you are addressing people in a gay sex chat forum rather than in a Jerry Falwell - holier than thou - conference.  

Oh, and did you vote for Trump?  I suspect you did. 

Happy New Year.  

220px-Jerry_Falwell_portrait.jpg
 
Jerry Falwell, whose founding of the Moral Majority was a key step in the formation of the New Christian Right

The Moral Majority was a prominent American political organization associated with the Christian right and Republican Party. It was founded in 1979 by Baptist minister Jerry Falwell and associates, and dissolved in the late 1980's. It played a key role in the mobilization of conservative Christians as a political force and particularly in Republican presidential victories throughout the 1980's.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Majority

Edited by mvan1
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1 hour ago, likeohmygod said:

 The 2 sauna guys that i've been with on past tuesday, did have phones (iphone XS, 7000 BRL,; Iphone XS MAX 8790 BRL), clothes and bodies that would require monthly payments of at least 2 times the minimum salary (1000 BRL, the most common in Rio) for the next 12 months, while living both into a favela-looking bairro.

Most of the garotos I deal with laugh at me because I am an American professional and *only* have an iPhone 7 Plus. The guys I see regularly have brand new iPhones or Samsungs, motorcycles, Nike gear, Invicta watches, Wireless Beats By Dre headphones, the latest LeBron James shoes, etc. Quite a few have their own cars that have been paid for with cash (or in at least two cases, bought for them). At least half have been on all-expense paid trips out of the country while the clock was still running, so they also got paid. 

But, sure, let’s keep up this stereotype of the poor, desperate garoto. 

They’re professionals and they’re on a job. They should be treated as such, not as charity cases or newfound lifetime loves.

 

Edited by SolaceSoul
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On 12/28/2018 at 2:37 PM, mvan1 said:

To the contrary, your writing indicates that your beliefs are consistent with the views of the now extinct Moral Majority organization. 

It’s unfortunate that you’re incapable of engaging in nuanced or higher-level discussions (i.e. those above an 8th grade level).

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7 hours ago, SolaceSoul said:

They’re professionals and they’re on a job. They should be treated as such, not as charity cases or newfound lifetime loves.

This is where you confuse me a bit.  If rentboys are highly paid professionals, then how does that reconcile with your posts about stark class imbalances and lack of ability to give true consent to photo taking.    

I am willing to consider that Cuba is a different dynamic than the commercialized setting of a brothel in Brazil.  Somehow BiLatin’s post came off as far more exploitive than what I have read about garotos in Brazil (for example in Numazu’s thread).

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24 minutes ago, riorockstar said:

This is where you confuse me a bit.  If rentboys are highly paid professionals, then how does that reconcile with your posts about stark class imbalances and lack of ability to give true consent to photo taking.    

I am willing to consider that Cuba is a different dynamic than the commercialized setting of a brothel in Brazil.  Somehow BiLatin’s post came off as far more exploitive than what I have read about garotos in Brazil (for example in Numazu’s thread).

I hesitate to join this discussion as I'm very new to this forum. However, when I post it is from experience and a knowledge base, so I'm going to go ahead and comment: Riorrockstar, my experience tells me that it would be far more polite to have many more posts under your belt before you turn rude. Not only does mvan1 have vastly more posts than you, but it also seems that the community overwhelmingly agrees with him. Some advice one newbie to another.

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53 minutes ago, riorockstar said:

This is where you confuse me a bit.  If rentboys are highly paid professionals, then how does that reconcile with your posts about stark class imbalances and lack of ability to give true consent to photo taking.    

I am willing to consider that Cuba is a different dynamic than the commercialized setting of a brothel in Brazil.  Somehow BiLatin’s post came off as far more exploitive than what I have read about garotos in Brazil (for example in Numazu’s thread).

I never stated that ALL rentboys are highly paid. You might want to re-read my last comment more carefully. I was referring to the garotos (a term which refers to the garotos de programs in Brazil) that I personally deal with. But as has been said by myself and others, even the ones that aren’t as I described can make a comparably comfortable living for a few years in the legal sex trade in Brazil.

We can agree that this is clearly not the case in a place like Cuba, where the ability to earn and acquire much at all from any kind of side hustle is much more severely restricted — and a side hustle of prostitution or pornography, if prosecuted is punishable by years in tough, unforgiving Cuban prisons.

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding your beef, but you somehow seem to believe, oddly to me, that there is some correlation between the amount of money paid to / earned by a sex worker and their ability to consent to photos used for the internet. 

In my observation, the stark class imbalances come not necessarily from what the garoto or sex worker can earn or buy from his sex work, but from the comparative differences of socioeconomic class between the sex worker in the area where the client is traveling and the actual tourist client. This is where class and race / color get tricky and sticky, because (and you will probably agree with me here) it’s clear to me that the darker the sex worker and the poorer the country, the more liberties some clients and posters here seem to be much more willing to take with them — like gratuitous photos, identifying information, and low-balling offers for their work.

This conversation seems to be turning into an academic dialogue. I’m not prepared to defend my dissertation — especially since no one gave me a stipend for my extensive research.

Edited by SolaceSoul
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21 minutes ago, paborn said:

I hesitate to join this discussion as I'm very new to this forum. However, when I post it is from experience and a knowledge base, so I'm going to go ahead and comment: Riorrockstar, my experience tells me that it would be far more polite to have many more posts under your belt before you turn rude. Not only does mvan1 have vastly more posts than you, but it also seems that the community overwhelmingly agrees with him. Some advice one newbie to another.

I could be wrong, but I am thinking riorockstar is an old poster who is now posting under a new screen name. It’s quite unusual for a totally new poster to just jump into a thread in full throttle attack mode like he did.

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5 minutes ago, SolaceSoul said:

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding your beef, but you somehow seem to believe, oddly to me, that there is some correlation between the amount of money paid to / earned by a sex worker and their ability to consent to photos used for the internet. 

In my opinion, a highly paid professional garoto would know much more clearly the ramifications of consenting to nude photos vs. a naive non-professional teenager in Cuba.

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22 minutes ago, SolaceSoul said:

This is where class and race / color get tricky and sticky, because (and you will probably agree with me here) it’s clear to me that the darker the sex worker and the poorer the country, the more liberties some clients and posters here seem to be much more willing to take with them — like gratuitous photos, identifying information, and low-balling offers for their work.

Exactly, in BiLatin’s original post he did make a point of noting that he only had to pay $10 to the darker skin guy vs the lighter skin guy who he paid double to ($20).  In retrospect there were several things about his post that caused me to become “triggered”

Edited by riorockstar
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23 minutes ago, SolaceSoul said:

I could be wrong, but I am thinking riorockstar is an old poster who is now posting under a new screen name. It’s quite unusual for a totally new poster to just jump into a thread in full throttle attack mode like he did.

Exactly! 

Perfect observation.  

Edited by mvan1
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6 minutes ago, riorockstar said:

 

In my opinion, a highly paid professional garoto would know much more clearly the ramifications of consenting to nude photos vs. a naive non-professional teenager in Cuba.

I don’t know what you consider the threshold for “highly paid”, but are you aware of the number of garotos (their pay to me is mostly unknown) that have become angry when they discover that their photos are posted on this forum?

Edited by SolaceSoul
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5 minutes ago, SolaceSoul said:

I don’t know what you consider the threshold for “highly paid”, but are you aware of the number of garotos (their pay to me is mostly unknown) that have become angry when they discover that their photos are posted on this forum?

To me that just indicates consent was not actually given.  The client likely mislead the garoto on the intent of the pictures (private use only vs. posting on a public forum).

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