Take Care Down Here

[mvan1]

16 hours ago, Latbear4blk said:

I said before that I was not going to get involved in these arguments anymore, but I always fail to honor my promise. It is pointless. It is like explaining to a racist that he is a racist. This is just xenophobic bull shit, and there is no way you will make them understand. They will always come with the last anecdotal information to make their point.

My point is be careful. Always and everywhere. 

 

Please tell me how the lady could have avoided having her purse stolen or the  Brazilian man could have avoided being hit by the thieves that stole the lady's purse - by being "careful".

Being "careful" has nothing to do with carrying on routine functions.

It is the "luck of the draw" - that is - being in the wrong place at a time a crime happens.

Xenophobia or racism had nothing to do with those two reported events.

[Latbear4blk]

Yawn.

[SolaceSoul]

Anecdotal evidence is always used to support biases.

[Tartegogo]

6 hours ago, SolaceSoul said:

Anecdotal evidence is always used to support biases.

True.

For example, I have loads of anecdotal evidence of Brazilian guys fucking in a great way, so I have a strong bias towards Brazilians being great at fucking. 

[sydneyboy1]

On my first trip to Rio in 2005 I walking along Av Atlantica almost in front of the Copacabana Palace at about 6:45pm and not yet fully dark. Out of nowhere came 3 thugs who dragged me between cars parked at right angles to the kerb. One neatly placed a semi circular knife around my throat while the other 2 went through my jeans pockets. I had a large number of small denomination notes in my jeans pockets which they took but I had a larger amount in my shirt pocket which I saved.

During this ordeal I was literally screaming for help. Literally only metres away there was a group of locals standing like stuffed dummies staring not to mention numerous passers by. The 3 thugs finally left and a man came to my aid. He saw me from a distance between the cars and realised what had happened. He was an American who lived in Rio and told me he had been mugged 3 times in the preceding months the last time by an assailant carrying a gun. I pointed to the group of locals who continued to stand and stare and his exact words to me were “sir they won’t help, they won’t help.” 

This was nearly 13 years ago and I have been back to Brazil 8 times older and wiser. There are a few lessons to be learnt from my experience. Don’t think your safe because an area is “busy.” Nowhere could be busier than the scene of my assault. Don’t think your safe because you are large. I am 190cm and of large build. 

For readers of the old Gay Travel Brazil website let me apologise for repeating a story I told a number of times order to prevent my experience happening to anyone else. These thugs were viscous looking, ruthless and I suspect capable of anything. Rio has a long standing crime problem.

[AdamSmith]

On 10/11/2018 at 7:25 AM, SolaceSoul said:

New York City now is not the NYC of the 1970s and 1980s. It has not been this safe and devoid of violent crime in decades. Still, for some people, NYC (especially some less-gentrified parts of it) will never feel safe, and they will always feel like it look like they have a target on their backs. In NYC, as in most major urban areas, most violent crimes are committed intra-racially (black on black, white on white), because human nature is that people tend to victimize in their own communities, yet here as in elsewhere, we have mostly older mostly white guys freaking out over being victims of violent crimes in major urban areas with lots of young men of color.

The violent crimes that occur in New Orleans and Miami  — save for the anecdotal, media-hyped tales — tend to occur in concentrated, blighted areas with heavy drug wars and lots and lots of poorer people (of color). On your vacay, as a privileged tourist, do you really intend to be “slumming” or hanging out in East New York, Brooklyn, Lower Ninth Ward, New Orleans, or Liberty City, Miami? 

Petty theft is common anywhere well-trafficked that is known to have tourists or people not as familiar with the lay of the land. However, violent crime, especially something like armed robbery, is going to be far less common in tony Ipanema or Leblon in Rio than it is in the inland neighborhoods — one major reason is that there is a larger police presence there to protect the monied nervous nellies (justified or not). Just as it is on the Upper East Side of Manhattan or South Beach, Miami.

The whole truth. You just need to be situationally aware.

Us Yale undergraduates routinely drove down into NYC  Chinatown and the Bowery and etc etc every Saturday. And never got mugged/robbed.

For the reasons said above.

Except it was VERY dangerous then.

But we knew how to dodge the danger. Not that complicated.

[mvan1]

1 hour ago, sydneyboy1 said:

On my first trip to Rio in 2005 I walking along Av Atlantica almost in front of the Copacabana Palace at about 6:45pm and not yet fully dark. Out of nowhere came 3 thugs who dragged me between cars parked at right angles to the kerb. One neatly placed a semi circular knife around my throat while the other 2 went through my jeans pockets. I had a large number of small denomination notes in my jeans pockets which they took but I had a larger amount in my shirt pocket which I saved.

During this ordeal I was literally screaming for help. Literally only metres away there was a group of locals standing like stuffed dummies staring not to mention numerous passers by. The 3 thugs finally left and a man came to my aid. He saw me from a distance between the cars and realised what had happened. He was an American who lived in Rio and told me he had been mugged 3 times in the preceding months the last time by an assailant carrying a gun. I pointed to the group of locals who continued to stand and stare and his exact words to me were “sir they won’t help, they won’t help.” 

This was nearly 13 years ago and I have been back to Brazil 8 times older and wiser. There are a few lessons to be learnt from my experience. Don’t think your safe because an area is “busy.” Nowhere could be busier than the scene of my assault. Don’t think your safe because you are large. I am 190cm and of large build. 

For readers of the old Gay Travel Brazil website let me apologise for repeating a story I told a number of times order to prevent my experience happening to anyone else. These thugs were viscous looking, ruthless and I suspect capable of anything. Rio has a long standing crime problem.

What a scary event you recounted. 

To think that you have returned to Brazil eight times since that incident shows you were not frightened off  from visiting Brazil as many would be, encountering such an awful attack.

Based on what you wrote, I think you did nothing to provoke the incident. 

At the time of your mugging, you were walking on one of Rio's main streets (Avenida Atlantica) which could no way be considered you were not being careful. 

No reasonable person would anticipate being accosted at that hour walking almost in front of a world famous hotel.

As I said and believe, bad events are generally the "luck of the draw" unless a person intentionally provokes an attack (which you did not do).

Being "careful" had nothing to do with your incident unless "being careful" includes staying indoors, not venturing anywhere, and not enjoying the scenery and joys of life.

So, to those who say we bring on our own problems because we are not sufficiently careful,   I say - poppycock!

[Latbear4blk]

[Walker]

I wonder if the "luck of the draw" also has to to with the victim's physical appearance.  A short, thin, older, fragile looking person may seem unlikely or unable to fight back when he/she is attacked.

[sydneyboy1]

13 minutes ago, Walker said:

I wonder if the "luck of the draw" also has to to with the victim's physical appearance.  A short, thin, older, fragile looking person may seem unlikely or unable to fight back when he/she is attacked.

I can only repeat that I was a victim of a mugging, am 190cm tall and of a large build. There were 3 of them armed and one of me unarmed.

[Tartegogo]

3 hours ago, Latbear4blk said:

Sorry, but this is dismissive of other people’s experiences to the point of being borderline insulting. You could just have posted nothing instead, that would have far more acceptable.

I guess that “yawn” should be our responses to each of your blogposts, now.

[sydneyboy1]

17 minutes ago, Tartegogo said:

Sorry, but this is dismissive of other people’s experiences to the point of being borderline insulting. You could just have posted nothing instead, that would have far more acceptable.

I guess that “yawn” should be our responses to each of your blogposts, now.

I have told my story on a few websites including Gay Travel Brazil and the TripAdvisor forum some years ago. My single motivation has been to try to ensure it does not happen to anyone else. Some of the responses on the TripAdvisor website were positively bizarre. These ranged from the proverbial “it can happen anywhere “ to people who accused me of being an out and out liar. In this internet age internet trolls are a fact of life and should be ignored. Forums such as this can be an invaluable source of information for serious and intelligent people .

[Tartegogo]

1 minute ago, sydneyboy1 said:

I have told my story on a few websites including Gay Travel Brazil and the TripAdvisor forum some years ago. My single motivation has been to try to ensure it does not happen to anyone else. Some of the responses on the TripAdvisor website were positively bizarre. These ranged from the proverbial “it can happen anywhere “ to people who accused me of being an out and out liar. In this internet age internet trolls are a fact of life and should be ignored. Forums such as this can be an invaluable source of information for serious and intelligent people .

Agree. But @Latbear4blk is not a troll and I thought I should say something. 

[Latbear4blk]

4 hours ago, Tartegogo said:

Sorry, but this is dismissive of other people’s experiences to the point of being borderline insulting. You could just have posted nothing instead, that would have far more acceptable.

I guess that “yawn” should be our responses to each of your blogposts, now.

You too, Brutus.  

Hey, no one forces you to read my blog. Please, stop doing it if it bores you.

My reaction, if you read carefully the thread, is not at personal experiences, but at the continues use of anecdotal information to make wild generalizations. And this time I do give up. Tis is really, really boring.

[mvan1]

1 hour ago, Latbear4blk said:

You too, Brutus.  

Hey, no one forces you to read my blog. Please, stop doing it if it bores you.

My reaction, if you read carefully the thread, is not at personal experiences, but at the continues use of anecdotal information to make wild generalizations. And this time I do give up. Tis is really, really boring.

 

The poster who reported his mugging in Rio is a first-time poster to this forum.

Your insulting post is certainly not a welcome to him.

You said you have never been to Brazil.  Despite that, you repeatedly post on threads related to Brazil. 

It is fine that you post in threads related to somewhere you have never visited.  However, please stop posting rude remarks about what others say about Brazil or inserting silly cartoons ridiculing posters or the subject of what they write.

If you don't like what someone has to say, ignore it unless what they write is inflammatory such as is your troll-like response. 

[Latbear4blk]

1 hour ago, Latbear4blk said:

And this time I do give up. Tis is really, really boring.

This*

[SolaceSoul]

12 hours ago, sydneyboy1 said:

On my first trip to Rio in 2005 I walking along Av Atlantica almost in front of the Copacabana Palace at about 6:45pm and not yet fully dark. Out of nowhere came 3 thugs who dragged me between cars parked at right angles to the kerb. One neatly placed a semi circular knife around my throat while the other 2 went through my jeans pockets. I had a large number of small denomination notes in my jeans pockets which they took but I had a larger amount in my shirt pocket which I saved.

During this ordeal I was literally screaming for help. Literally only metres away there was a group of locals standing like stuffed dummies staring not to mention numerous passers by. The 3 thugs finally left and a man came to my aid. He saw me from a distance between the cars and realised what had happened. He was an American who lived in Rio and told me he had been mugged 3 times in the preceding months the last time by an assailant carrying a gun. I pointed to the group of locals who continued to stand and stare and his exact words to me were “sir they won’t help, they won’t help.” 

This was nearly 13 years ago and I have been back to Brazil 8 times older and wiser. There are a few lessons to be learnt from my experience. Don’t think your safe because an area is “busy.” Nowhere could be busier than the scene of my assault. Don’t think your safe because you are large. I am 190cm and of large build. 

For readers of the old Gay Travel Brazil website let me apologise for repeating a story I told a number of times order to prevent my experience happening to anyone else. These thugs were viscous looking, ruthless and I suspect capable of anything. Rio has a long standing crime problem.

I think it’s great and highly admirable that, in spite of your having a harrowing experience on your first trip, you returned to Rio at least 7 more times and had what I presume were wonderful, violent crime-free experiences.

I’d also like to point out that the area around Copacabana Palace is a target for thieves and muggers out to get “wealthy unsuspecting gringo tourists”. Because nothing says, “I’m just visiting, have a little money to burn, and don’t know Rio” like the famed Copacabana Palace.

I don’t know if you decided to be a little less touristy and a little more unassuming in your subsequent trips to Rio, but this is one thing that (although none of this was your fault) could be a valuable course corrector for you and others moving forward.

 

[Lucky]

People have genuine concerns about the risks of traveling to Brazil. I don't discount them, although I also don't plan to stop visiting barring a change in that risk. We each have to decide for ourselves.

[demedici]

One more point that is bugging me. An argument based on anecdotal evidence is something like this : a guy from New York robbed me, therefore New Yorkers are thieves. It involves limited examples or personal experiences to make broad statements or conclusions. Citing broad national statistics is the opposite of that. The conclusions could still be incorrect and the survey methodology could be flawed, but that is a different argument. 

Oh and calling someone a racist xenophobe in the middle of a discussion on crime and risk is an ad hominem fallacy. That means you attack the person and not the argument. 

Finally, I agree there is no way to be perfectly safe, even at home in your basement, other than being dead. I still disagree though that you can't do anything to be "careful" in Brazil and in most places with similar crime issues, to lower your risk of becoming a victim. You stay in nicer areas, don't wear jewelry, don't flash around electronics, and don't bring strangers home. This may only lower the risk slightly and none of it would have helped the OP. Whatever the risk, I agree with everyone who said the risk is worth it because Brazil is a pretty amazing place. 

 

[mvan1]

40 minutes ago, demedici said:

 

snip - 

Finally, I agree there is no way to be perfectly safe, even at home in your basement, other than being dead. I still disagree though that you can't do anything to be "careful" in Brazil and in most places with similar crime issues, to lower your risk of becoming a victim. You stay in nicer areas, don't wear jewelry, don't flash around electronics, and don't bring strangers home. This may only lower the risk slightly and none of it would have helped the OP. Whatever the risk, I agree with everyone who said the risk is worth it because Brazil is a pretty amazing place. 

 

Exactly, this is what I was saying, but in different words.  

I never said or implied that there is nothing , we as tourists, can do to lower the risk of getting mugged, a risk that is definitely present. 

However, luck will keep us out of harms way most of the time if we use prudence while out and about enjoying Brazil.

Even if we do not call attention to our financial advantages , there is still the "luck of the draw" aspect of being in the wrong place at a wrong time.  Some bad things can happen.

And yes, Brazil is a pretty amazing place. 

 

To the original poster of this thread, let me apologize for the negative responses to your first post to this forum. 

Don't let those responses discourage you from future posts.  Your experience gained from your many trips to Brazil makes you an asset for information relative to Brazil.

 

[Tartegogo]

8 hours ago, Latbear4blk said:

You too, Brutus.  

Hey, no one forces you to read my blog. Please, stop doing it if it bores you.

My reaction, if you read carefully the thread, is not at personal experiences, but at the continues use of anecdotal information to make wild generalizations. And this time I do give up. Tis is really, really boring.

Well, when we quote government statistics, rather than anecdotes, you are equally dismissive.

If you find this boring, I don’t understand why you are still on this thread at all. 

As for your blog, I don’t read it often at all. But unlike you, I don’t go there and comment “yawn”. 

When I am not interested in a discussion I walk away, I don’t write “yawn” at the participants. 

[tassojunior]

20 hours ago, sydneyboy1 said:

On my first trip to Rio in 2005 I walking along Av Atlantica almost in front of the Copacabana Palace at about 6:45pm and not yet fully dark. Out of nowhere came 3 thugs who dragged me between cars parked at right angles to the kerb. One neatly placed a semi circular knife around my throat while the other 2 went through my jeans pockets. I had a large number of small denomination notes in my jeans pockets which they took but I had a larger amount in my shirt pocket which I saved.

During this ordeal I was literally screaming for help. Literally only metres away there was a group of locals standing like stuffed dummies staring not to mention numerous passers by. The 3 thugs finally left and a man came to my aid. He saw me from a distance between the cars and realised what had happened. He was an American who lived in Rio and told me he had been mugged 3 times in the preceding months the last time by an assailant carrying a gun. I pointed to the group of locals who continued to stand and stare and his exact words to me were “sir they won’t help, they won’t help.” 

This was nearly 13 years ago and I have been back to Brazil 8 times older and wiser. There are a few lessons to be learnt from my experience. Don’t think your safe because an area is “busy.” Nowhere could be busier than the scene of my assault. Don’t think your safe because you are large. I am 190cm and of large build. 

For readers of the old Gay Travel Brazil website let me apologise for repeating a story I told a number of times order to prevent my experience happening to anyone else. These thugs were viscous looking, ruthless and I suspect capable of anything. Rio has a long standing crime problem.

I for one like antedotal experiences because they give life to and help explain statistics. We read the statistics but often our experiences don't explain them until we hear how they have happened to others. 

In this case it's  weird because on my only trip to Rio many years ago I was almost mugged in exactly the same spot, right behind the Copacabana Palace on the main street at about the same time---dusk. I was staying down at the Sheraton, an enclosed remote hotel. I was in no danger in cabs to Rogers Thermas or at Rogers or in the area around Rogers in any way but this one spot I was. 2 guys were following me, then passed me and suddenly stopped 100 feet in front of me and looked back while talking. It was 100% certain they were determining how to mug me. I have no doubts. I immediately took a sharp left turn toward the beach and the beach side of the hotel. As soon as I got past the edge of the building where they couldn't see me, I started running.

I relay this story to as many people as possible because there's a false sense of security next to the biggest hotel and only yards off the beach. My advice is that it's 100% safe walking along the beach itself but 100% not safe on the 1st street behind it. That would never occur to most as it did not to me. We don't think such a tiny distance can be so big a deal. 

I also have a neighbor who's brother works a lot in Rio and has been mugged every one of a dozen trips to Rio in the business district.She says twice it was at ATM's. And he's Bolivian. I would be wary of "downtown" and ATM's from those stories.  

[sydneyboy1]

14 minutes ago, tassojunior said:

I for one like antedotal experiences because they give life to and help explain statistics. We read the statistics but often our experiences don't explain them until we hear how they have happened to others. 

In this case it's  weird because on my only trip to Rio many years ago I was almost mugged in exactly the same spot, right behind the Copacabana Palace on the main street at about the same time---dusk. I was staying down at the Sheraton, an enclosed remote hotel. I was in no danger in cabs to Rogers Thermas or at Rogers or in the area around Rogers in any way but this one spot I was. 2 guys were following me, then passed me and suddenly stopped 100 feet in front of me and looked back while talking. It was 100% certain they were determining how to mug me. I have no doubts. I immediately took a sharp left turn toward the beach and the beach side of the hotel. As soon as I got past the edge of the building where they couldn't see me, I started running.

I relay this story to as many people as possible because there's a false sense of security next to the biggest hotel and only yards off the beach. My advice is that it's 100% safe walking along the beach itself but 100% not safe on the 1st street behind it. That would never occur to most as it did not to me. We don't think such a tiny distance can be so big a deal. 

I also have a neighbor who's brother works a lot in Rio and has been mugged every one of a dozen trips to Rio in the business district.She says twice it was at ATM's. And he's Bolivian. I would be wary of "downtown" and ATM's from those stories.  

Interestingly my mugging occurred walking from Rogers to my hotel.

[tassojunior]

4 minutes ago, sydneyboy1 said:

Interestingly my mugging occurred walking from Rogers to my hotel.

Not Rogers Thermas----it's been closed a long time.

 

[sydneyboy1]

33 minutes ago, tassojunior said:

Not Rogers Thermas----it's been closed a long time.

 

I know remember this was13 years ago.