A question regarding transliteration.

[Guest Geezer]

Thais pronounce the name of the beer as “Sing”, the name of our erstwhile prime minister as “Shinawat”, and the name of our erstwhile airport as “Suwanapoom”.

 

In the English transliteration an extra syllable is added at the end of the words. Why is this?

[llz]

Thais pronounce the name of the beer as “Sing”, the name of our erstwhile prime minister as “Shinawat”, and the name of our erstwhile airport as “Suwanapoom”.

In the English transliteration an extra syllable is added at the end of the words. Why is this?

The words you quote are written in thai with silent consonants ("h" for Sing, "r" for Shinawat) or silent vowels ("i" for Suwanaphoom) at their end, which are reproduced in some transliteration systems. These words usually have a pali-sanskrit origin.

 

[Guest Geezer]

Thank you llz, for answering a question which has plagued me for years. I am stupefied at your erudition.

 

Now I can return to contemplation of the string theory.

[Guest jtrack33]

Ilz, that's the best explanation I've heard. Can you please though comment on the pronunciation of Rama..? When speaking to a Thai person, like a bus conductor or taxi driver, you need to pronounce it as Paraam. You seldom hear it pronounced this way by Thais or falangs when speaking in English. The only example of this pronunciation in an English conversation I have encountered is when on the MRT underground train the recorded English voice refers to "station paraam nine". Your above explanation covers the silence of the last "a", but doesn't explain the additional "pa" prefix. In this case they are adding a sound at the beginning and leaving a vowel silent at the end.

[llz]

Can you please though comment on the pronunciation of Rama..?

In your example, "Pha" stands for พระ / "Phra" which prefixes the name of kings and persons and things related to royalty, and gods. Rama 4 = Phraram thii sii but the "r" is often omitted or at least very soft.

[Bob]

I'm a bit confused, Ilz. I thought "Rama" was the English version (whenever we're around a statue or photo of a king, my thai friends always - when speaking in English - simply say that's "Rama Five" or "Rama Nine" or whatever). When speaking in Thai, they pronounces it the way you suggest. So I'm a bit confused that anyone would pronounce "Rama" any different than just plain "Rama."

 

P.S. When they say "Rama", I've often remarked that it's about the only word they use where they often pronounce an "r" just like we crazy falang.

[Gaybutton]

I thought "Rama" was the English version

 

It is. If you're speaking to another English speaker, the transliteration looks just like you would say 'Rama' as it has been spelled, so there's no reason not to say it that way - to another English speaker.

 

Thai language lesson number one: You don't always pronounce Thai words the way they're transliterated and spelled in English.

 

If you are trying to communicate with a Thai speaker, then if you say 'Rama,' nobody is going to know what you are talking about. When trying to say it the way the Thais say it, you have to say it roughly as 'PURR-rahm,' with a slight roll of the 'r'.

 

Just how the Thai pronunciation ended up spelled as 'Rama' in English goes beyond me, since it's not pronounced that way at all. I think whoever came up with these transliterations tried to convert Thai letters into English letters, without regard to pronunciation. Many words are transliterated in the same manner, causing English speakers who are trying to say the word in Thai to be confused as hell.

 

My favorite is the word you see transliterated as 'porn.' You see that word all over the place. I know how an English speaker is going to pronounce it. However, the Thais pronounce it as 'pawn,' like a pawn shop or the chess piece. Beats me why it isn't transliterated that way, but it isn't.

 

I've said this a million times, and now I'll say it again. We are not 'fa-rang,' like you 'rang' a bell. We are not 'fa-lang,' like the first syllable of 'language.' And we are definitely not 'fair-rang.' We are farang, or if you prefer, falang. It's pronounced 'fa-RAHNG' or 'fa-LAHNG.' Anybody who has been in Thailand more than ten minutes has heard how Thais pronounce it. I've never understood why the hell so many farang refuse to pronounce it the same way. What's the hard part?

 

I also keep hearing people who seem to think they are in 'JOM-shun,' which they think is part of 'pa-TAY-ya,' along 'ta-PRAY-ya' Road, not too far from 'Tep-PRA-sit.' I've given up trying to get several of my friends to pronounce those words correctly. Well, maybe they all speak 'eng-GLISH'

[Guest lvdkeyes]

I rarely hear English speakers say "Pa tah YA"; it comes out "Pa TAI a" or "Patty ah". It beats me why they don't seem to listen or hear Thais speak.

[Bob]

I'm still a bit confused, GB and Ilz. I have no doubt that you both are telling us how you hear it in Pattaya or Bangkok, but I am certain that Thai people in Chiangmai, when speaking in their "English" use the English pronunciation of "Rama." Hundreds of times I've been to various sites, restaurants, etc., in that area and I usually ask if that's "Rama V" (the most popular "king" photo up in those parts) or whoever and they always say "Rama" just like it looks in English. I know that for a certainty as I've asked the question hundreds of times for the last 10 years.

 

There are regional differences. For example only, male Thais may end a sentence with a word that sounds like "krap" in Bangkok and southern parts, but you will almost never hear the "r" up north....it's pronounced essentially as "kap." I've heard that same pronunciation ("kap") in Udon Thani and Nong Kai also.

 

As concerns use of the word "falang" up north, you never hear that with anything that would approximate an "r" sound. At least I never have.

[Gaybutton]

I rarely hear English speakers say "Pa tah YA"; it comes out "Pa TAI a" or "Patty ah". It beats me why they don't seem to listen or hear Thais speak.

 

Maybe they've been hanging around 'JOM-shun" too long . . .

 

[Guest fountainhall]

So I'm a bit confused that anyone would pronounce "Rama" any different than just plain "Rama."

 

Is it because roads are generally referred to as King Rama 4 Road - hence Phra-Ram, or as I often hear it Pa-lam, whereas a statue does not need to have the King prefix?

[Guest xiandarkthorne]

The words you quote are written in thai with silent consonants ("h" for Sing, "r" for Shinawat) or silent vowels ("i" for Suwanaphoom) at their end, which are reproduced in some transliteration systems. These words usually have a pali-sanskrit origin.

 

Regarding words with Pali-Sanskrit origin, permit me to add my two cents' worth. LLZ is perfectly correct regarding the silent consonants and vowels. Such words are usually affected by local dialects when read aloud - even in Indian, 'Rama' is pronounced 'Ra-mern' by some dialectical groups, though the 'Phra' (as in the Thai version) is omitted. 'Brahma' is another example that comes to mind - it is pronounced 'Bra-mern' (emphasis on the 'mern') by some Indians and 'Brah-ma' (emphasis on the 'Brah') by others. Since Thai, which is a Pali-Sanskrit-based language, has something like 72 letters in their alphabet and vowels are placed, not in between consonants but above or below, the range of possible pronunciations become even wider.

 

I suspect that the confusion with the transliterated spellings came about because the early scholars (probably British since they annexed India and Burma along with a few other Southeast Asian nations and did the most research into such things at that time) who translated the texts opted for the closest parallel sounds they could discern - and since such pronunciation would have been based on the local dialect of whichever district they were based at, it isn't surprising that the English spellings we see seldom coincides with the Thai or other Indian/Burmese?Cambodian pronunciations.

 

Xian

 

PS

And people think all we do is talk about sex on these forums!

[Gaybutton]

I am certain that Thai people in Chiangmai, when speaking in their "English" use the English pronunciation of "Rama."

 

You've got me on that one. I'm rarely in Chiang Mai at all, let alone long enough to pick up on different ways of saying things. Maybe it's regional dialect or something. I don't have a clue why the same word would be pronounced one way in the south and a totally different way in the north, to the point that it doesn't even sound like the same word. I wonder how many other Thai words are like that.