So where will the guys go now?

[JKane]

With the seizure of Backpage (and arrest of owner...) and Craigslist 'voluntarily' shutting down, where do the boys go?  I bet there's going to be a lot of late rent next month.   

Of course there's Rentmen.eu and Rentboy.pro and of course they've hosted overseas after what happened to rentboy.com but.. the owners of rentboy.com and Backpage being arrested makes me wonder if that's enough, at least if you wanted to live and spend money in America.  If the sites attract the attention of the US's puritanical brigade I doubt they'd be able to withstand it.  There's also always a handful of other escort sites in various stages of growth or disrepair.  Been seeing Mint around more lately.  

Plus, that's generally a different market than what we had on CL and BP.  Pro escorts charging $300+ in most major areas.  It also requires a different mindset for the guys--they have to pay for and/or manage escorting as a business.  A big change from guys simply posting an add when they needed some cash (like the rest of us would go to an ATM), and also a different and far less spur of the moment feel for the clients.  Still, there'll obviously be many new ads, especially on the sites that don't charge the escorts an arm and leg... but again, those sites' ability to make money on that model and to not run afoul of the US law will be continuous questions.  Which one is most promising?  I like the search, location, and online-now features of rentmen.eu at least...  

Forum and hookup sites could be a better fit, but they were actively avoiding the business in the US even before these laws pass.  Seen people complaining about PlanetRomeo hiding or worse its sections that were used for escorting.  Gaydar's has played hide and seek too, if I recall, and never had much traction in the US.  They're primed to be targeted by the new laws if they did try to serve this demand.  Are any?  

Obviously Grinder has a lot of potential in this market but may also eventually become a juicy target for Law Enforcement, especially if it becomes the go-to replacement for Backpage/etc.  They clearly don't want that business, forcing things to be rather vague plus the possibility of bans/etc.  Then there's the geographic aspect of Grinder, in some ways good, but not so much for a fetishist living in the middle of nowhere.  I wonder, is there going to be a "virtual Santa Monica BLVD" where people drive to in order to get ads for guys available for $$$?  Is WeHo already that?  There's also at least a half dozen other apps that could become the go-to for this, but they could be wiped out even easier if targeted.  Are any currently ascendant?  

Maybe back to certain bars?  The ones known for that are long gone in Hollywood and many others are feeling the loss of hookup/cruising customers to the apps.  Any in LA seem like prospects?  Maybe at the few stripper bars there'll be a couple more strippers open to talk about outside meetings.  Maybe others will show up too...?  

Of course there's also the real Santa Monica BLVD and others.  And thinking about that you can really see the impact of these laws.  As much as I'd liked cruising the wares it was pretty horrible for the guys in every way.  Constant exposure to the elements, drugs, crime, and police persecution.  Spending all day watching traffic, not able to do anything else productive or to elevate themselves out of needing to do it while they are doing it.  Much less choice--on both sides, clients settling for what's available but worse, guys forced to do what that client wants because they need the cash.  Businesses that don't want them there, and have greatly gentrified in the areas guys used to 'stroll'.  Pretty sure these laws are going to cause a lot of people to be a lot more desperate and if they end up living on the street, well they're right there to work it...  

On the bright side, unemployment is at an all time low, but this all happened so abruptly it may be a hard transition to make, especially for those who ended up without documentation to work.  Or work experience.  Or education...  

What does everybody think?  

[JKane]

Hmm, the top of this page reminds me of another possibility.  Seen many references to using the video sites to arrange meetings in the Latin American forum...  But again the businesses seem to actively discourage that use and would be an easy target to be shut down if it became popular.  May well get an influx of 'models' regardless. 

But I don't expect that the categories are setup in a way that'd lend itself to this use, are they?  LA twink bottoms channel and the site looks the other way why we care where our 'cam model' lives...?  

There's also social media, the way people have mentioned Facebook being used in some places.  But right now is the perfect storm of attention on that with a lot being done to get rid of alternate and fake accounts, and they'll be quickly targeted by these new laws if somehow they got popular in the US for that use.  

Of course the oldest profession will go somewhere... it's fascinating to think where.  Any options I haven't mentioned?  Something new?  LinkedIn.com?  ;oP  Oh, oh, will this be what Google+ is finally used for?  If anybody could stand up to the US government...  

[tassojunior]

SESTA would easily apply to porn also since many trafficking "victims" are filmed for porn for money. And the Grindr/Tinder sites get more than enough guys seeking generous mature men. Whether or not legal enforcement reaches this far,  filters that providers and platforms are going to place will soon reach that far. 

The first reactions are going to be trying to reach RentMen through VPN's and escorts spreading into the massage and hook-up sites. RentMen makes the overwhelming amount of it's profit in the US and with business here tanking for them they will be in trouble. Not to mention anyone bringing private civil suit against them in the US. And the hook-up sites are going to get aggressive in getting escorts out. The straight world has been familiar with "massage" as a vehicle for a while and I would think the massage sites are going down to filters quickly.

Enforcement of this law is going to be at a 1. Filtering because of this law is going to be at a 10.

[Cany10011]

May have to take a break from hiring for a while in the US and make more visits to Thermas Barcelona. On the other thread, an escort was suggesting increasing their prices to match those of female providers (i.e., 500$ per hr). That is completely insane...for me at least. I am not willing to spend that much. Perhaps others will, but i would rather spend it on a plane ticket and nice hotel in a friendlier city where time with an escort is more reasonable.

[Latbear4blk]

3 hours ago, tassojunior said:

SESTA would easily apply to porn also since many trafficking "victims" are filmed for porn for money. And the Grindr/Tinder sites get more than enough guys seeking generous mature men. Whether or not legal enforcement reaches this far,  filters that providers and platforms are going to place will soon reach that far. 

The first reactions are going to be trying to reach RentMen through VPN's and escorts spreading into the massage and hook-up sites. RentMen makes the overwhelming amount of it's profit in the US and with business here tanking for them they will be in trouble. Not to mention anyone bringing private civil suit against them in the US. And the hook-up sites are going to get aggressive in getting escorts out. The straight world has been familiar with "massage" as a vehicle for a while and I would think the massage sites are going down to filters quickly.

Enforcement of this law is going to be at a 1. Filtering because of this law is going to be at a 10.

 

I do not think porn is threatened by SESTA/FOSTA, but that does not mean it is safe. The threat comes from campaigns and policy like in Florida, where they declared porn a public health issue, with consequences still to be seen.

We are in the middle of the Puritan wave, we have to hold it together and will pass. Future is ours.

[mvan1]

1 hour ago, Latbear4blk said:

 

The threat comes from campaigns and policy like in Florida, where they declared porn a public health issue, with consequences still to be seen.

We are in the middle of the Puritan wave, we have to hold it together and will pass. Future is ours.

With the mess the escort sites are in, how can you be optimistic that the madness and bigotry against escorts "will pass" as you said?  

The madness is on a tide or a strong wave to stamp out sex other than traditional straight sex.   The internet is the easiest target for the bigots to control.  

The "me too" thing was the seed.  Now that seed has grown a plant that is out of control.

Just think of Al Franken as an example.  Not to mention nearly one hundred other political and entertainment industry executives that have been forced to resign.   The tide is not in our favor in the immediate or even near future.  

Stop the world, I want to get off.    

[AdamSmith]

1 hour ago, mvan1 said:

With the mess the escort sites are in, how can you be optimistic that the madness and bigotry against escorts "will pass" as you said?  

Do you know a human impulse stronger than the sex impulse?

I do not.

[mvan1]

33 minutes ago, AdamSmith said:

Do you know a human impulse stronger than the sex impulse?

I do not.

Human impulse has nothing to do with law enforcement blocking or shutting down internet sites that promote prostitution.  

Consequently, even as time passes, internet sites and their owners will remain vulnerable to seizure or legal consequences at any time.   

No one, except for a judge after a hearing/challenge of the law, will reverse the language that is already in the law.  

As I said, things are out of control with escort sites and/or any publication that allows discussions of "escorts" (aka - hustlers).   Even this site is vulnerable.  

[AdamSmith]

2 minutes ago, mvan1 said:

Human impulse has nothing to do with law enforcement blocking or shutting down internet sites that promote prostitution.  

Consequently, even as time passes, internet sites and their owners will remain vulnerable to seizure or legal consequences at any time.   No one will reverse the language that is already in the law.  

As I said, things are out of control with escort sites and/or any publication that allows discussions of "escorts" (aka - hustlers). 

We are in a bizarre (i.e., entirely common) passage of American civilization.

Hold yer jets for just one more election cycle.

[mvan1]

35 minutes ago, AdamSmith said:

We are in a bizarre (i.e., entirely common) passage of American civilization.

Hold yer jets for just one more election cycle.

It is not so simple to reverse the damage.  How does one "un-ring a bell"  - the damage is done.

If you read the language in the new law, it cleverly includes sexual protection of children.  However, I was never aware of any children at risk on sites that advertised escorts.  Rentboy, rentmen, craigslist, backpage did not advertise children, to my knowledge - those ads were targeted at adults. 

Despite no children being advertised or exploited, the legislators harped about protecting children as a major reason to close down escort sites.   In other words, children have nothing to do with escorts on internet sites.  

Watch the below linked web address for this hideously ignorant and misguided United States Senator who discusses children being exploited but yet gives no examples of any such thing:

 In the meantime, websites that include adult prostitutions or discussions promoting prostitutions are being blocked or closed down.  

If you watch some of the discussions at the link to the ignorant U.S. Senator, you will see repeated comments about the "horrors of human trafficking" - selling woman and children on-line. 

Outlandish false assertions are repeatedly included in the discussions.   

Wait until this madness "will pass"  - wishful thinking.  The sky has fallen -   Chicken Little was right, after all.  

[Riobard]

5 hours ago, Cany10011 said:

May have to take a break from hiring for a while in the US and make more visits to Thermas Barcelona. On the other thread, an escort was suggesting increasing their prices to match those of female providers (i.e., 500$ per hr). That is completely insane...for me at least. I am not willing to spend that much. Perhaps others will, but i would rather spend it on a plane ticket and nice hotel in a friendlier city where time with an escort is more reasonable.

Reading that other platform's thread's proposal was like going down the proverbial rabbit hole. And the main advocates are providers I would not go near even if I were the one paid half a G. They are entirely unrepresentative of what all other consumers I know go for. I would sooner fuck a subterranean Roger Rabbit before clawing my way back up and out. That's all folks.

[AdamSmith]

43 minutes ago, mvan1 said:

It is not so simple to reverse the damage.  How does one "un-ring a bell"  - the damage is done.

I think the long-haul history of American civic fight & progress does not support your claim.

[AdamSmith]

Recall that a -- very conservative -- US District Judge (can't recall which District) -- just last month asked, very seriously, in a prostitution case:

'Please tell me why an act that, when legal delivered free, becomes a crime when delivered for pay?'

[tassojunior]

1 hour ago, mvan1 said:

Human impulse has nothing to do with law enforcement blocking or shutting down internet sites that promote prostitution.  

Consequently, even as time passes, internet sites and their owners will remain vulnerable to seizure or legal consequences at any time.   

No one, except for a judge after a hearing/challenge of the law, will reverse the language that is already in the law.  

As I said, things are out of control with escort sites and/or any publication that allows discussions of "escorts" (aka - hustlers).   Even this site is vulnerable.  

Prostitution = Child Sex Trafficking. That's the new definition and from now on the crusade will rev up. Hell hath no fury like "liberals" on a trendy social campaign, and now it's going to be "child sex trafficking". Every Democrat is going to be clawing over others to become more of a crusader against what we call escorting and porn but they will lump as "Child Sex Trafficking".  It's gonna be trendy and liberal. The Christain right-wingers are easy to make fun of. These people won't be. Watch:  the Pro-SESTA ad by liberal Democrats:

 

[tassojunior]

and no election cycle is going to get anyone in who would repeal SESTA and the young conservative new judges aren't going anyplace for a long, long time.

[mvan1]

1 hour ago, AdamSmith said:

I think the long-haul history of American civic fight & progress does not support your claim.

Adam, you are a bright man.  This new trend of "saving the children and stop sex trafficking" will continue for decades.  

Long haul, I could care less.  It is now that matters. 

Things are getting worse in that sites that allow discussion of prostitution, such as this site and the "other" site, are in harms way.   Some have already been shut down.  Some of the owners have been arrested for a supposed crime - rentboy - backpage for example.  

Did you listen to that airhead senator in the link I supplied above?  She is not alone in her warped thoughts.  

Only two senators voted against the new law.  What does that tell us about the handwriting that is so clearly on the wall?

Let's go get Chicken Little and save her.    

Also, watch the video at the link provided by tassojunior.  

Throughout that video, it completely ignored the facts about escort sites and harped, endlessly, about children.  It is as though those loonies purposefully ignored reality.  Children are not on escort sites.  So, in the process, the escort sites get targeted and closed.  

Where is Chicken Little when we need her?
 

 

[AdamSmith]

2 hours ago, mvan1 said:

Adam, you are a bright man.  This new trend of "saving the children and stop sex trafficking" will continue for decades.  

Long haul, I could care less.  It is now that matters. 

Things are getting worse in that sites that allow discussion of prostitution, such as this site and the "other" site, are in harms way.   Some have already been shut down.  Some of the owners have been arrested for a supposed crime - rentboy - backpage for example.  

Did you listen to that airhead senator in the link I supplied above?  She is not alone in her warped thoughts.  

Only two senators voted against the new law.  What does that tell us about the handwriting that is so clearly on the wall?

Let's go get Chicken Little and save her.    

Also, watch the video at the link provided by tassojunior.  

Throughout that video, it completely ignored the facts about escort sites and harped, endlessly, about children.  It is as though those loonies purposefully ignored reality.  Children are not on escort sites.  So, in the process, the escort sites get targeted and closed.  

Where is Chicken Little when we need her?

'Movements' like this one, and countless others throughout history, get most violent and extreme as they are just entering what turn out to be their own death throes.

See, for example, how all the polling data indicate the Gen X-through-Millenials voter base will never let another Trump or anything like him happen again in their lifetimes.

Yes, the sky HAS fallen today. This happens from time to time in our turbulent, conflicted world. Then we fight back, recover and go forward again.

[tassojunior]

1 hour ago, AdamSmith said:

'Movements' like this one, and countless others throughout history, get most violent and extreme as they are just entering what turn out to be their own death throes.

See, for example, how all the polling data indicate the Gen X-through-Millenials voter base will never let another Trump or anything like him happen again in their lifetimes.

Yes, the sky HAS fallen today. This happens from time to time in our turbulent, conflicted world. Then we fight back, recover and go forward again.

But Adam, this wasn't Trump with SESTA. He had nothing to do with it-------This was the Democrats.  Senator Blumenthal(D) on a liberal crusade to save the children by shutting down escort sites. Watch the ad I posted. 

[Riobard]

Sodomy laws were struck down by the US Supreme Court merely 15 years ago. This was serendipitous because the right people at the right time took up the cause of Lawrence v Texas. He and friends were partying hard, police responded to a domestic-type dust-up, and a prosecutor elected to indict for fucking. The plaintiffs were not at all sophisticated but interest groups decided to carry appeal to the top because it was high time to bring law up to snuff with the depathologizing of homosexuality formalized by the APA decades earlier. 

The subsequent ruling precedent confers a glimmer hope ... the fact that a governing majority considers an act to be immoral is an insufficient reason to uphold a law prohibiting the practice. This would essentially be the backbone of decriminalizing consensual sex for consideration between a male distributor and a male consumer. Leveraging with politicians will likely be ineffective. Only high level arbiters of justice have the intelligence and will take the time to process through the division of popular theories regarding prostitution. 

Conflict theory is the model that is widely cherry-picked by conservatives and feminists alike ...the notion that women are sexually objectified in a patriarchal society. This perspective coheres beautifully with current news cycles and exerts prominence because it seems true because it sounds true. But of course falls flat in relation to M2M performative labour. So it would have to be formally declared as lacking relevance for cases of male homosexual consensual commercial sex. Once debunked by authorities with half a brain, potentially that opens up space for other theoretical frameworks to balance out the overweighting of conflict theory. Examples, functionalism and symbolic interactionism ...  commercial sex as mutually beneficial alternative, justification for consensual sexual behaviour forms that do not emanate from inequity and exploitation.

One party or a conjoint party of two or more males charged with the related offense would need to fight it to the bitter end with substantial infrastructure support. It will be a challenge to mobilize the same degree of support that occurred following the travesty of Texans charged with sodomy not so long ago. And for a substantial number of liberals even, an abhorrence of prostitution is bred in the bone. It is deemed to be psychologically immature and interactionally lazy. They might not strongly support criminalization but won't be eager to help push a boulder up the mountain in favour of M2M impunity. But I believe that an appeals-level action is the most viable concrete hope for a partial (subgroup) or full repeal of commercial vice law. 

Expert testimonials from male commercial sex workers would need to be provided by men who are viewed as stereotypically male, albeit a strategy pandering to misguided notions of conventional masculinity. One struggle at a time. Keep it tight. Optically manipulated to reduce the risk of diluting the central thesis with other social causes.

Freedom of speech advertising is a separate though related question. 

[Suckrates]

They are dumping ALL issues into one pot.   The members here or at Daddy's interested in hiring escorts are NOT the ones interested in trafficking kids  (at least I hope not).   For me, child sex traffic is a completely diff thing, its a CRIME, whereby by definition alone, I dont believe prostitution is.  Allow willing adults to make a living.  but to crack down on the child sex thing, perhaps its not as easy a task without shutting down sites where "predators" might be lurking.   Just make prostitution LEGAL, and deal with the kiddie thing alone. 

There are people that are absolutely losing their minds at the thought of not being able to "shop" for escorts on these websites.  I just think its sad their lives are so identified with the NEED for it.  But that's just me judging, as usual. 

[Lucky]

Prostitution did not become the world's oldest profession by accident. It has survived centuries of efforts to ban it. Just because now there is an active effort to stop it doesn't mean that the effort will succeed. I agree that many obstacles are there, especially Trump's efforts to give lifetime appointments to conservative attorneys not even wet behind the ears.

Even a conservative publication like the NY Post has a columnist opposing the effort to ban prostitution, pointing out how the rhetoric has gone way overboard with trafficking charges being wildly exaggerated.  https://nypost.com/2018/03/04/the-best-way-to-fight-sex-trafficking-is-to-legalize-prostitution/

So basically, this too will pass. Someone actively involved in hiring escorts will already have a way into accessing these services. People find drugs despite the huge war on drugs. Human needs do not change just because a law does.

[Latbear4blk]

14 hours ago, mvan1 said:

 The madness is on a tide or a strong wave to stamp out sex other than traditional straight sex.   The internet is the easiest target for the bigots to control.     

 

Look, I am aware of how bad and strong the Purintan wave is. Perhaps even more than you are. You seem to think that the target are unconventional sexual behaviors. No, my friend, I think it is much worse than that. They are coming for sex, period. They are coming for the expression of any sexual behavior, for the whole adult entertainment market. I would even say that straight porn and prostitution are in a much more vulnerable place than we are, because they are on the spot, we are not.

So yes, the situation is quite bad.

However, I am still relatively optimistic mostly for two reasons. 

• because the situation is bad but it is not apocalyptic as many panicky reactions are making it. The legal situation is still evolving. It is wise to get ready to make quick changes once we know what exactly the law of the land is, and how exactly it is going to be implemented, but making radical changes now when we do not yet exactly the new context, it is premature in my opinion. Many civil right organizations seem to be optimistic about the chances of stopping this law in the courts.
• because I think History evolves through cycles. We are in a counter cicle now, it is not only the sex market being attacked, but there is a huge controversy right now around freedom of speech in social media, and how to regulate it. Hold your pants, organize, stay your ground as much as you can, and be ready for the next cycle favoring us.

[Suckrates]

Not having an escort on MY payroll is something I think I can live with ?   Especially when you realize there are countries where people go without basic human rights, food water, and YES, even cellphones, the hysteria over "people for hire" seems ridiculous and petty. .  

[Suckrates]

 

"IF you want ME, you'll FIND me! "

[Riobard]

I think that consumers where commercial sex is illegal invest considerable psychological capital suppressing the stark reality that the terrain is peppered here and there with tripwires of prosecution and associated consequences. These defenses are difficult to shore up at a time when vice law is shoved into our faces. The anxiety is naturalistic and realistic, for now.

When consumers became indictable in neighbouring Canada 3 years ago barely a blip was registered. And law enforcement certainly did not go full-SWAT on it. 

Any site containing the non-neutral non-inocuous moniker "boy toy" is now going to raise more eyebrows and perk up the wrong ears more than ever. It worked fine for a long time. It does not merit internal criticism but is worth being vigilant about in these turbulent times. Any language legitimately colloquial is twistable and spinnable in the wrong hands.