Why pay for non-performance?!

[12is12]

Hi Guys,

Sanddunes reported several instances in which he paid even more than agreed to GPs who basically cheated him in various ways. It's my impression he isn't the only one who does so, and I don't understand why. Every time you do it, you not only get shortchanged but also ensure that the GP will continue scamming others.

I had one such experience at the sauna near the Rio beach (don't remember if its NMM or 202), 5 minutes into the session. [I reported it here back then in detail.] I told the guy I'm leaving the room without payment. He got very angry, accompanied me to the reception, where I explained the situation. The receptionist and the manager told me I must pay, blocking my exit; I refused; they threatened to call the police; and I said "no need, I'll call them myself" and started clicking my phone. They relented immediately.

I urge all of you, for all our sakes, to refuse payment to cheats. It has nothing to do with sex. Most guys here sometimes mention the need for decent respect toward these working guys. I VERY MUCH concur. I expect the same from them. Since I don't pay other service providers when they cheat me, there's no reason to pay sex providers. 

[sanddunes]

While I agree with you on principal, it is easier said than done to stand up to them.

Without speaking portuguese it would be difficult to explain what happened to the manager or the police (and certainly I wouldnt want to get the police involved in a foreign country over an amount that is $30 usd).  Most of the police here do not speak English.  I can’t imagine they would have much sympathy for a tourist who claims a sauna boy did not perform as promised.

The muscular straight sauna types are also physically intimidating, and I would actually be afraid of getting them too pissed off for my own safety.

When it comes to saunas I think some bad programas are just part of the overall expense, certainly if the amounts we were talking about were $250 or $300 there would be more at stake.  

In the future I am going to try tomcal and others advice of having them show if they are a good kisser, etc. before hiring.  

[torogen]

8 minutes ago, sanddunes said:

 I can’t imagine they would have much sympathy for a tourist who claims a sauna boy did not perform as promised.

I agree that I would not want to be in that situation, trying to explain to the police that the garoto was terrible at sucking cock, or insisted on a condom after saying he would suck without a condom...or whatever the issue of the "non-performance".

 

That said, a guy trying to claim I owed extra would also piss me off, and I would simply stand my ground and pay only the pre-agreed fee, and not any extra that was demanded.

[Riobard]

I think that unmet expectations or skirmishes over payment are part of the price of admission, and these factors vary at an individual level. It is not a haircut.

My needs as well as ease of arousal and climax at the end of the hook-up, and my approach to the pay envelope, have left me in the fortunate position of skirting dramatic encounters ... so far. I tend not to outline an elaborate shopping list prior to the encounter; after all, the guys' goal is to get me in the suite, full stop.

And for me, not many others I suspect, part of the thrill is the unknown and the small details as the sexcounter unfolds. ThIs is not a superior stance, just the way I tick, but I don't think I would bother with these paycations if I had to spend time and energy checking off a series of boxes, other than the potential date's looks floor me upfront. 

But I grasp the frustration somewhat. What I find I have to roll with sometimes is paying entrance and drinks and ending up bored because the menu is lacklustre, to me anyways (I am picky and fickle, value the ambiguity of newness in GP selection), and I would have been better off splurging on a higher-end dinner. But one trade-off is the chance of snagging Sr Right Rightnow. So the hundreds of reais spent simply looking are not a total throwaway with bitter ending.

[tassojunior]

Whatever the merits of this it's totally different in the US where so many times you lose $300 to total fakes.

In a sauna you see and feel the guy and can try kisses, etc. to test. And total is $50.....No sympathy.

[Riobard]

A mere 3-5 fakes is equivalent to airfare to Spain or Brazil, worth it to assess the goods up front.

[Riobard]

I have seen a fraction of the customer base in Brasil doing what I call cheating. I have observed customers, usually tourists,  taking a lot of fluff-room liberties but never actually booking a suite programa. To my way of thinking, getting hundreds of dollars of what would be equivalent to hot lap-dances in a stripper club without doling out a red cent to working guys. 

[Tomcal]

4 hours ago, Riobard said:

I have seen a fraction of the customer base in Brasil doing what I call cheating. I have observed customers, usually tourists,  taking a lot of fluff-room liberties but never actually booking a suite programa. To my way of thinking, getting hundreds of dollars of what would be equivalent to hot lap-dances in a stripper club without doling out a red cent to working guys. 

one of my biggest complaints, and there are 2 Americans i know who did this continuously, both who i would term “cheap”!  the kind of guys that are always in the bathroom when the restaurant check comes for instance! I finally told one that if he kept spending a hour playing with everyone’s dick but never take anyone to a suite he was going to run into trouble when he left the sauna sooner or later(a sauna guy told me this) wisely he took the advise!

[Walker]

9 hours ago, Tomcal said:

......but never take anyone to a suite he was going to run into trouble when he left the sauna sooner or later(a sauna guy told me this)....

I don't play with everyone's dick and without paying anyone,  but what kind of trouble are we talking about?

[SolaceSoul]

7 hours ago, Walker said:

I don't play with everyone's dick and without paying anyone,  but what kind of trouble are we talking about?

Don’t be daft. He’s referring to physical violence or robbery outside the sauna.

[SolaceSoul]

20 hours ago, Riobard said:

I have seen a fraction of the customer base in Brasil doing what I call cheating. I have observed customers, usually tourists,  taking a lot of fluff-room liberties but never actually booking a suite programa. To my way of thinking, getting hundreds of dollars of what would be equivalent to hot lap-dances in a stripper club without doling out a red cent to working guys. 

As much chatter as there is on this and other boards about garotos or escorts ripping off customers, I see just as many, if not more, instances of tourist clients cheating GPs by trying to get free or additional pleasures out of the garotos.

 

[TotallyOz]

I ran an escort agency years back. When there was a complaint from a client, I gave them a free date. That came out of my pocket. It was rare but it happened.  The customer is always right and sometimes personalities just don't mesh. That said, I have been in situations where service was not rendered and I have always paid.  One in LA through Craig's List was adorable but he was a shitty fuck. I still paid him and gave him a tip. He asked to see me again and I told him he was cute but not good sex.  He asked for another chance which I gave him and he was fantastic the next 10 times.

When boys know they are going with someone who is known, they don't fuck up as much. When they know they can get a repeat, the smart ones work harder as it makes their life easier.  When I was traveling to Rio multiple times a year for a few months at a time, I never had any issue as they all knew I was good and consistent. But, with tourists, they also know they most likely will never see them again and some do stupid things to ensure they get as much as possible for the least amount of time.

I have never refused to pay at a sauna or at a massage place in Brazil or Thailand.  And, I have had bad "dates" in both.  I just consider it the price of admission.  As I always tip the mamasan in Thailand before I leave when the boy is bad, I give no tip and tell her he was not good.  As a former pimp, I feel that is needed. But, in Brazil, the boys do not work for the sauna and they are independent contractors and what happens at all stages is between the two parties.  I bet most sauna owners do not want problems. But, at the same time, as a foreigner, I do not want an issue in a country that is not my own.

[Riobard]

1 hour ago, SolaceSoul said:

Don’t be daft. He’s referring to physical violence or robbery outside the sauna.

But perhaps if the culprit customer possesses Portuguese flunency it would just be a stern talking to.

[SolaceSoul]

On 3/9/2018 at 6:10 AM, 12is12 said:

Hi Guys,

Sanddunes reported several instances in which he paid even more than agreed to GPs who basically cheated him in various ways. It's my impression he isn't the only one who does so, and I don't understand why. Every time you do it, you not only get shortchanged but also ensure that the GP will continue scamming others.

I had one such experience at the sauna near the Rio beach (don't remember if its NMM or 202), 5 minutes into the session. [I reported it here back then in detail.] I told the guy I'm leaving the room without payment. He got very angry, accompanied me to the reception, where I explained the situation. The receptionist and the manager told me I must pay, blocking my exit; I refused; they threatened to call the police; and I said "no need, I'll call them myself" and started clicking my phone. They relented immediately.

I urge all of you, for all our sakes, to refuse payment to cheats. It has nothing to do with sex. Most guys here sometimes mention the need for decent respect toward these working guys. I VERY MUCH concur. I expect the same from them. Since I don't pay other service providers when they cheat me, there's no reason to pay sex providers. 

Perhaps it’s a cultural thing, but calling the police on something like this seems really petty. With many people, the police aren’t always seen to have their best interests at heart, at best, and corrupt and murderous, at worst. Brazilian police also aren’t always the fairest to those that they know they can extort for money — like European or American gay tourists at a brothel.

[likeohmygod]

Very true... Do not get involved with police in Brazil until it's strictly necessary. 

[Riobard]

Zeroing in on the OP's details, because the club staff initially impulsively threatened police contact and he simply 'raised them', calling their bluff, the question here is how to generally handle foiled expectations in-house, not how misguided he was at attempting to recruit a badge's intervention. So yes, give up a little on the relatively rare dust-ups, particularly if you want to return for the usually satisfactory experiences. 

[Badboy81]

On 3/9/2018 at 6:10 AM, 12is12 said:

Hi Guys,

Sanddunes reported several instances in which he paid even more than agreed to GPs who basically cheated him in various ways. It's my impression he isn't the only one who does so, and I don't understand why. Every time you do it, you not only get shortchanged but also ensure that the GP will continue scamming others.

I had one such experience at the sauna near the Rio beach (don't remember if its NMM or 202), 5 minutes into the session. [I reported it here back then in detail.] I told the guy I'm leaving the room without payment. He got very angry, accompanied me to the reception, where I explained the situation. The receptionist and the manager told me I must pay, blocking my exit; I refused; they threatened to call the police; and I said "no need, I'll call them myself" and started clicking my phone. They relented immediately.

I urge all of you, for all our sakes, to refuse payment to cheats. It has nothing to do with sex. Most guys here sometimes mention the need for decent respect toward these working guys. I VERY MUCH concur. I expect the same from them. Since I don't pay other service providers when they cheat me, there's no reason to pay sex providers. 

That would lead to issues in the future when trying to go back to the sauna or possibly with other guys...what was so bad you didnt want to give the guy $25-30 dollars for his time?

That doesn't seem right....

[Gotti]

Complaining about sex performance in a brothel is not like calling Amazon customer service, is a dangerous business and is a gamble, sometimes you are pleased, sometimes you are not, that's the name of the game. Refusing to pay a prostitute if you are not 100% satisfied might lead to horrible consequences. Maybe the sauna thing is not for you.

[AdamSmith]

If you can't smell out a 'cheat' of a sex worker beforehand, shame on you.

And even then, consider all the human transactional parts of it.

Always remember they might be criminals; but OTOH they might just be human too.

[Walker]

So how would you guys handle the situation when a GP demands double of what was agreed before entering the room?  Would you simply hand over whatever the money he wants?

[Gotti]

21 minutes ago, Walker said:

So how would you guys handle the situation when a GP demands double of what was agreed before entering the room?  Would you simply hand over whatever the money he wants?

I suggested avoid complaining or refusing to pay because of the quality of the performance, in case of the boy asking for substantially more than was the deal, I would notify the management, they have a good idea of what the boys are charging and in the case of something outlandish they will do something about it. Is not in their best interest to have workers robbing the clients and the possibility of the police coming in is the thing they fear the most.

[Riobard]

I really doubt the GdeP demanding double is very confident it will pay off, at least in the sauna setting. The menacing posturing is his lottery ticket, usually discardable.

Some of the garota brothels with high-end working ladies charge a flat rate: 400 reais for entrance and standard suck'n'fuck with one girl. Believe me, the customer does not easily get a second roll of the dice for free if he is dissatisfied with the one he chooses.

Do we want the more cookie-cutter business model at those prices? Probably not. The law of averages works in our favour.

We get to window-shop non-commitedly over a cocktail for a pittance, interact and extract phone numbers, have a hot time with at least one GdeP, optionally negotiate particulars of sexual choreography, all for a substantially great price. 

[Tartegogo]

5 hours ago, Walker said:

So how would you guys handle the situation when a GP demands double of what was agreed before entering the room?  Would you simply hand over whatever the money he wants?

Depends what was agreed.

If what was agreed is the regular price or more, then I would just pay what was agreed, in front of other GP as witnesses. They would see it is fair and it is unlikely to lead to further trouble to refuse his demand for double. 

If what was agreed is half of the regular price, then I would just pay up the regular price and make him happy. 

If it is somewhere in between, I would also pay the regular price, perhaps more. Who care about 15 dollars? Your flight to Rio alone cost you $1000. How can that be a dent to your budget or even a problem?

But if he was bad in bed on top of that , I would have no issue to trash his reputation to anyone who asks. 

[Badboy81]

10 hours ago, Walker said:

So how would you guys handle the situation when a GP demands double of what was agreed before entering the room?  Would you simply hand over whatever the money he wants?

Demanding double? Maybe you did something to anger them or disrespect them OR maybe you were unclear on the actual amount that was agreed on...

The demanding double just doesnt sound right from all the years I have been in and out of the saunas starting my own trouble...Demanding payment I have had, demanding double just sounds odd bro

[Badboy81]

5 hours ago, Tartegogo said:

Depends what was agreed.

If what was agreed is the regular price or more, then I would just pay what was agreed, in front of other GP as witnesses. They would see it is fair and it is unlikely to lead to further trouble to refuse his demand for double. 

If what was agreed is half of the regular price, then I would just pay up the regular price and make him happy. 

If it is somewhere in between, I would also pay the regular price, perhaps more. Who care about 15 dollars? Your flight to Rio alone cost you $1000. How can that be a dent to your budget or even a problem?

But if he was bad in bed on top of that , I would have no issue to trash his reputation to anyone who asks. 

Trash his reputation to who?

The people on this forum are a very, very small minority of clients these guys have...

Maybe if you are a regular and live in Rio so you can be in the saunas often and trash said guy but whats the point...Just avoid him and never hire him again...