Brazil Saunas: Their Days Are Numbered

[Lucky]

It would be good to listen this advice from out long-time Brazil expert Tomcal:

If you have been waiting for a long time to visit Brazil i would do it now!! I do not think personally that the sauna scene will last more then a couple more years!

One example that Tomcal cites is the fact that the megatropolis So Paolo has only two saunas with garotos, and they both have their slow nights. With the decline in the Brazilian economy, many locals will find themselves with insufficient funds to keep visiting the saunas as often as they wish. Locals are the mainstay of the sauna, not we tourists.

 

SO I call attention to what Tomcal said in another post lest it get lost. Now is the time to visit Brazil for their gay saunas.

[likeohmygod]

I guess that it is not the decline of economy the problem (since it's beginning to recover).

Tomcal made me notice that the main problem for saunas is Internet, which is their strongest competitor. Apps like Grindr, Hornet, don't really help the sauna scenario.

But they're still 100% now...for now. The change is happening, but pretty slowly.

In my humble opinion, even in 2 or 3 years, they will not completely disappear. I believe that there will be always one sauna like Thermas in Barcelona, which is pretty richer and advanced (tech speaking) than what Rio and SP will be at this rate of development.

But the advice is correct...don't wait years to go.

Thankfully...i will be there in February 2017 :D.

[Guest bobbalino]

I've noticed on netgay.com.br a few ads for "spas", some with pics of masseurs that signal sexiness over clinical expertise, that accompany lists of specialties all beginning with tantric. One masseur is a guy I have programa'd with a few times at 117. Just sayin'. Code for massage parlour with extras and happy ending.

The oldest profession and us horndogs will likely endure in hooking up even with paradigm changes.

Any insights on these establishments? They are likely smaller with far less overhead costs than the places we frequent to date.

If things get progressively tech-y, I will flounder without some mentoring. Digital immigrant, hitting a wall in terms of the apps, etc.

In that case I would try to prevail upon one of you for some hands-on guidance or some tips on how to get some discreet fee-for-service lessons on setting up and navigating these communication systems with some finesse in, for example, Rio.

That said, I have never been keen to make dates without seeing the merchandise with my own two eyes. Crass and depersonalizing, I know. But also avoiding misrepresentation, and vetting in terms of safety, etc.

[Tomcal]

I remember going in the 90's and early 2000's to The Gaiety and Stellas in NYC and to Numbers in LA,  which had been operating for 25 years!  And then all of the sudden they were gone! I too enjoy seeing whats available live before making a selection! Really miss those places!  If you have the chance visit. Sauna in Brazil! You just never know...

[Gotti]

I don't. necessarilly agree with the Idea that Grindr and similar apps will be responsible for closing saunas in Brazil or anywhere else. People go to saunas cause they can't get anyone on Grindr, at least someone they fancy. Grindr has affected gay bars and discos, cause guys Who use to Go to these places for hook ups (the vast majority) can easily find somebody on Grindr without paying admission or absurd drink prices. People go to saunas to get the young attractive boys they dream about but can't get cause they are too old or too fat or both, so they will keep coming back, they might go less frequently for financial reasons, but Grindr is no solution for them. Also security is a concern when someone has to pay for sex and this works on sauna's favor. The problem with Brazilian saunas is the stupid owners firmly believe they are in show business spending money with the pathetic drag queens, while the boys, the only reason people go to the saunas, are just an afterthoght. While the drags are paid money to their pityful lyp synchinc, the boys have to pay to get in. I only imagine what a creative New York promoter would do with 3 dozen semi-naked (or even naked) young boys, only if they could, while their Brazilian counterpars, some of the few in the world that can work with this situation, can't think of anything cause they are a bunch of stupid morons. Big wigs and corny shinning dresses decade after decade. 

[Tomcal]

Gotti its not the customers deserting that didnt happen at the stellas, the gaeity or numbers its about the guys not coming!! Instead of paying a entrace fee plus the transportation cost of getting there and not getting a customer staying 3 hours(mandated by the sauna) and going home with nothing they can stay at home and not be out anything and wait for the phone or im to ring!  Why do you think every hustler bar in the US doesnt exist anymore? It is not because of the moral police it is because of the INTERNET!

[Gotti]

Hi Tom, as I pointed out on my commentary Grindr and other apps did hurt gay bars and discos, but saunas offer a diferent kind of experience, and we we know what kind of experience that is after all we both go to Brazil and elsewhere, thosands of miles away and thosands of dollars as well, mainly because of the saunas and we both have Grindr on our phones. As I pointed out the owners don't give the boys the importance they deserve, while they put a lot of energy trying to program some stupid Revue almost every night of the week, the boys are just "tolerated", if they pay. In Curitiba there is a sauna (without drags) that some years ago, the 2 boys with more customers each night would get free admission next time they would stop by, I don't know if stil goes but what clever Idea, stimulating the most popular boys to return. 

Changing subjects Gaiety in NYC closed because the building was sold. It broke my heart, I used to Go there every weekend for almost 15 years. The most importamt hustle bar in NYC, called Rounds was closed by Giuliano Gestapo, an undercover cop went there and hired a prostitute, same with another bar on 10th Street on the West Village, and very likely with Stella. I had some contact with Denise after the closing of Gaiety, she was trying to re-open but Giuliani zoning laws targeting sex clubs made it impossible.

You are right about gay bars, they will keep closing at alarming rates and the main culprit is the internet, saunas however one or two night survive in Big cities despite the economic hardship and the stupidity of the owners. 

[Guest bobbalino]

I, too, could live without the cheesy shows, but I think that component is driven by the local clientele as much as the short-sightedness and complacency we gringos might attribute to the management. It is as much a social environment as a commercial sex environment for the locals sustaining these venues. And they are not grousing about the quality of entertainment.

The drag shows, bingo nights etc etc also allow for a reprieve for some of the working guys who essentially face the daunting task of maximizing their appeal hours and days on end. They can let their guard down and be themselves for a few minutes. The drag performers also enhance the hypermasculinity the working guys strive for, through the contrast in presentation.

There are many variables at play here.

A little off topic, I wish I had taken photos of the communal spaces and cabins at Dragon Club in Fortaleza to show what can be in terms of decor, design, etc.

The place was nearly deserted, but in physical quality is several cuts above the other 8 or so venues I have attended in Brazil.

[Gotti]

I remember countless times seeing 4 or 5 performers at Point stage with hardly twice as many people watching, it's just absurd, I agree that some entertainment is desirable but if is hurting the bottom line they should think of something else. The saunas are always in bad financial shape, but the shows are never affected, while the fee the boys have to pay to work keeps going up.If the attractive boys stop showing up attendance will dwindle, drags will not sustain.

[Guest bobbalino]

Definitely room for improvement.

Does anyone know what kind of bank working boys have to produce at Club 117 for their 3-hour minimum commitment?

If I semi-commit to a rendezvous the following day or two, what amount of cash is a garoto out if I don't show and their attendance is not otherwise productive?

I am not yet very skilled and consistent at SIM cards and Whatsapp for a change of plans alert.

[Tomcal]

Fortunately, Acyr one of the owners of Meo Mundo and until 2 weeks ago Point202 is on vacation in the U.S. and staying at my house this week in SoCal so i asked him about this last night.  It's more complicated then we think but he said they have tried different "programs" with the guys to incentivize them to show up, to get them to be available to customers more nights, to give them discounted admission, etc., but for varying reasons the majority of these ideas fail.  Sometimes the guys are their own worst enemy! An example: They trade keys so if one guy gets 2 customers one is recorded for him and the other for a friend so the friend gets a free admission or bonus.  If admission is lowered to to $5.r or less he said then the type of guys coming in are not the type you would want either working at your place or in your bed!

[Lucky]

Tomcal has at least opened the topic for an interesting discussion. That we cannot go to Brazil as often as we like makes many of us hang on his trip reports. So at least we might have those for the next couple of years. And he's got a sauna owner staying with him to add to the discussion. Great!

[demedici]

7 hours ago, bobbalino said:

I, too, could live without the cheesy shows, but I think that component is driven by the local clientele as much as the short-sightedness and complacency we gringos might attribute to the management. It is as much a social environment as a commercial sex environment for the locals sustaining these venues. And they are not grousing about the quality of entertainment.

The drag shows, bingo nights etc etc also allow for a reprieve for some of the working guys who essentially face the daunting task of maximizing their appeal hours and days on end. They can let their guard down and be themselves for a few minutes. The drag performers also enhance the hypermasculinity the working guys strive for, through the contrast in presentation.

There are many variables at play here.

A little off topic, I wish I had taken photos of the communal spaces and cabins at Dragon Club in Fortaleza to show what can be in terms of decor, design, etc.

The place was nearly deserted, but in physical quality is several cuts above the other 8 or so venues I have attended in Brazil.

http://www.dragonclubfortaleza.com.br/ 

Their site has good pics of the place. I have been there twice. Both times it seemed to me there were only a few gp's. Still there is lots to do....I met a regular young man in the sauna who was very eager to play. So we did. In terms of setup though, it is a fantastic place. I especially love the deck that overlooks the pool, but really the whole place is unequaled.

[SolaceSoul]

14 hours ago, Tomcal said:

Gotti its not the customers deserting that didnt happen at the stellas, the gaeity or numbers its about the guys not coming!! Instead of paying a entrace fee plus the transportation cost of getting there and not getting a customer staying 3 hours(mandated by the sauna) and going home with nothing they can stay at home and not be out anything and wait for the phone or im to ring!  Why do you think every hustler bar in the US doesnt exist anymore? It is not because of the moral police it is because of the INTERNET!

I can't speak for Numbers in LA, but I definitely know about The Gaiety, Stella's, Cats, Rounds and the hustler bars of yore in NYC. The internet didn't shut them down. The policies of Mayor Rudy Giuliani did. 

[Gotti]

Bingo!

[Tomcal]

Cats and rounds were gone long before the gaeity and stellas!  I started going to both in '96/97 and i think both were gone by then and the gaiety and stellas did not close until 2003/2004?

[Badboy81]

2 hours ago, Tomcal said:

Cats and rounds were gone long before the gaeity and stellas!  I started going to both in '96/97 and i think both were gone by then and the gaiety and stellas did not close until 2003/2004?

Interesting conversation...

I do remember dancing in Stellas as a wee lad (not sure how legal I was) and yes it closed in the early mid 2000s...It was time...Long gone are the seedy bars of yesterday..Now you have Swinging Richards and the clubs in Miami/Ft Lauderdale where the guys are insanely expensive....

As far as the saunas scene in Brazil...It has evolved....there are actually still the same quantity of boys for pay in all major cities in Brazil....Just less competition on where to find them, which enhances our chances of not having to go to several to find what we want/like....

There are just various avenues outside of going to a pay saunas or a hustler bar to find them...

Most major cities that cater to tourists willing to spend money on trade, Barcelona, Rio, Mexico City, New York, LA....hell Atlanta have various places where you can find "working boys" on the streets....

The internet and apps have taken the place of seedy bars, hole in the walls and some less desirable places where one would previously have to go OR not know where to go...

I don't see the sauna scene going away in Brazil because it is a WAY OF LIFE, cultural compared to other countries where it is more hidden or less out in the open....gay saunas in Brazil are in NEIGHBORHOODS..Like next to schools...literally...

It is seen as a respectable way to earn income...

Aside from the pay for play saunas that have come and gone in Brazil as a whole...there are still a good number of places to pick up boys, ie, the beach, the street, Sexy Rose, tons of bars without apps...

I just don't see the sauna scene going away anytime in the future...way too much money to be made in a 3rd world country where people do not mind putting a price in their time or "efforts"...

 

[SolaceSoul]

4 hours ago, Tomcal said:

Cats and rounds were gone long before the gaeity and stellas!  I started going to both in '96/97 and i think both were gone by then and the gaiety and stellas did not close until 2003/2004?

I started working on Wall Street in 1992. Cats, The Gaiety, Stella's and the Show Palace in Times Square, and Rounds and the Townhouse on the UES were the places for hustlers. Some places in the Village were also around, but the names escape me. Giuliani got into office in January 1994 and almost immediately, Rounds (which was the gold standard for hustlers and escorts) was shut down. By the end of 94, Cats was done. Show Palace was shuttered towards the end of 1995. Stella's and Gaiety held in there until the end of Giuliani's reign of terror, but the first term of the Bloomberg administtatioj finished the job of Disney-fying all of Times Square, and un-gaying The West Village.

[Tomcal]

Guys i really hope i am wrong but i dont think so! And the Brasilians who are in the business don't think so either!  The lease on Pointe was terminated early because the new management could not turn a profit nor could the previous owner who now owns it again! Although both have the experience in running sucessful rentboy saunas in the past!  What has changed? 10 years ago no one in Brazil had a smart phone now everybody over 14 has one!  The city is over 9 million people and it apparently cannot support or keep 3 rentboy saunas busy most nights of the week!  11 years ago there were 6 rentboy saunas in Rio!  Badboy your comment about Brasilian culture and gay saunas is true but not Rentboy saunas! Yes every city in Brazil has gay saunas but only 1 or 2 are rentboy saunas and none are full most nights of the week like they were 10 years ago!  (Remember DeNile is a river in Egypt!  :-)

[Badboy81]

Time will tell....Even if they all closed, I don't think that would change the reason why many travel to the country...

There will always be a demand for flesh and guys who are willing to cater to that demand....

I think if the sauna scene changed, more things would be underground OR maybe Rio should do the guys they have Villa Mimosa and just make a party district that caters to the gays, all in one area....

[SolaceSoul]

3 hours ago, Tomcal said:

Guys i really hope i am wrong but i dont think so! And the Brasilians who are in the business don't think so either!  The lease on Pointe was terminated early because the new management could not turn a profit nor could the previous owner who now owns it again! Although both have the experience in running sucessful rentboy saunas in the past!  What has changed? 10 years ago no one in Brazil had a smart phone now everybody over 14 has one!  The city is over 9 million people and it apparently cannot support or keep 3 rentboy saunas busy most nights of the week!  11 years ago there were 6 rentboy saunas in Rio!  Badboy your comment about Brasilian culture and gay saunas is true but not Rentboy saunas! Yes every city in Brazil has gay saunas but only 1 or 2 are rentboy saunas and none are full most nights of the week like they were 10 years ago!  (Remember DeNile is a river in Egypt!  :-)

From an economic standpoint, Rio can probably maintain two distinctly different rentboy saunas: one for regular looking, Twinkier, more attainable guys and another for higher-end, supermodel-y, less attainable guys. The problem with a place like Point 202, especially in a struggling economy, is that, in the face of the more successful 117, it could not market itself as anything distinctive. There simply aren't enough paying customers to go around. 117 established itself as the brand for muscular supermodel garotos, and 202 was left with trying to brand and re-brand itself. Those of us with marketing backgrounds and MBAs may find this kind of shop talk more interesting, but I find the writing of the rentboy sauna obituaries a bit premature. I doubt the days of 6 rentboy saunas will be returning (arguably, that was market oversaturation,  and their closings could simply have been market correction), but it's not economically unreasonable to think that the metro area of Rio can keep supporting two different rent boys in two different parts of town with two very different demographics. 

The same for São Paulo, Salvador and Recife.

NOTE: the world-famous straight brothels / saunas / spas in Rio, like Centaurus and Termas Monte Carlo, have been going throwing economic growing / shrinking pains as well. 

[TotallyOz]

I was in NYC when Stella's closed.  I went there at least once if not 10 times a week for years.  I loved it.  I also liked the Gaiety.

I was disappointed when they closed. Agree it was not Internet but if they had stuck around, the Internet would have done them in.

In both Brazil and Thailand, I see two of the great bastions of the gay hooker world.  Both are amazing and the Internet is changing both.  I'm in Thailand now and the apps are wild and crazy and the bars are still amazing but less than 4 years ago.  I do think both of these places will slowly decline. But, I hope that some of the major players will hang in and stay in business.  For me, I like to see what I am getting.

[Tomcal]

I just wanted to thank everyone who contributed to this discussion!  while there were some differing and divergent viewpoints, everyone made their valid points and no one got upset or angry! unusual for internet/forums discussions!   :-)

[Gotti]

I've seen on this fórum my beloved Gaiety been mentioned with other venues that has absolutely nothing in common. Rounds, Steellas, Cats, the place on W 10th St that nobody seem to remember the name They were all Gay/Hustle bars while the Gaiety was a totally diferent business, it was a theater, with stage, a curtain and a Cat walk where 7 boys on week days and 14 on weekends paraded completely naked. The boys were mostly twinks and jocks, very seldon a body builder or a buffy type. Imagine young Tom Cruise or young James Franco dancing completely naked in front of you. After their act the boys would go to adjoining foyer, dressed, to interact with the customers, that could take them to a hotel nearby, nothing happened inside the Gaiety premisses, the vast majority were White and undet 25. They stayed in business for 35 years and surprisingly were not closed by Giuliani, like all hustle bar, but he imposed a draconian zoning restriction that the only other options was to go to the West Side Highway, not a good spot for a night venue, unless you cater to truck drivers. Denise realized a diferent New York had arrived so she just let it go. The woman made history, nobody that was in NYC during this long períod will ever forget, every one will remember certain boys for life knowing they will never have a chance to see something similar again. Don't even think about Rio, São Paulo or whatever. Gaiety was the greatest place!

[SolaceSoul]

1 hour ago, Gotti said:

I've seen on this fórum my beloved Gaiety been mentioned with other venues that has absolutely nothing in common. Rounds, Steellas, Cats, the place on W 10th St that nobody seem to remember the name They were all Gay/Hustle bars while the Gaiety was a totally diferent business, it was a theater, with stage, a curtain and a Cat walk where 7 boys on week days and 14 on weekends paraded completely naked. The boys were mostly twinks and jocks, very seldon a body builder or a buffy type. Imagine young Tom Cruise or young James Franco dancing completely naked in front of you. After their act the boys would go to adjoining foyer, dressed, to interact with the customers, that could take them to a hotel nearby, nothing happened inside the Gaiety premisses, the vast majority were White and undet 25. They stayed in business for 35 years and surprisingly were not closed by Giuliani, like all hustle bar, but he imposed a draconian zoning restriction that the only other options was to go to the West Side Highway, not a good spot for a night venue, unless you cater to truck drivers. Denise realized a diferent New York had arrived so she just let it go. The woman made history, nobody that was in NYC during this long períod will ever forget, every one will remember certain boys for life knowing they will never have a chance to see something similar again. Don't even think about Rio, São Paulo or whatever. Gaiety was the greatest place!

No, they were hustlers. You might not like the name "hustler", maybe you prefer something like "paid companion", "private shows", "rentboy" or "escort", but that's what they were. They hooked up with clients for money in between sets away from the venue and after the shows. Every one of them. And there were quite a number of muscle jocks and bodybuilders who would perform there.

Personally, I prefer places like 117 and Lagoa, and even Rounds, to The Gaiety, but I would rather have it there in NYC as an option than not. Now, there's nothing. And you can thank Giuliani for the re-zoning.