Australia's Experience with banning gun ownership

[Guest tomcal]

Caveat - I don't own a firearm, but grew up in a family where everyone hunted, so personally have nothing against gun ownership(now hunting that's a different topic for me, I don't understand trophy hunting but that is for a different thread!)t...but unlike the NRA I do believe EVERYONE should have to have a background check before being able to purchase one...to help eliminate some of the crazies! I realize that alone is not going to stop some of the tragedies we have seen, but I also believe that the Australian way of going about it is all wrong as evidenced by this article. kinda like prohibition, it didn't eliminate drinking he just made the mafia and other gangs/groups much wealthier organizations and we lost the tax revenue which is substantial.

Australian Gun Law Update�

From: Ed Chenel, A police officer in Australia

Hi Yanks, I thought you all would like to see the real
figures from Down Under.
It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by a new law to
surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by our own
government, a program costing Australia taxpayers
more than $500 million dollars.
The first year results are now in:
Australia-wide, homicides are up 6.2 percent,
Australia-wide, assaults are up 9.6 percent;
Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!
In the state of Victoria.....
lone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent.(Note that
while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not
and criminals still possess their guns!)
While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady
decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since the criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins andassaults of the elderly, while the resident is at home.
Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public
safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in 'successfully ridding Australian society of guns....' You won't see this on the American evening news or hear your governor or members of the State Assembly disseminating this information.
The Australian experience speaks for itself. Guns in the
hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws affect only the law-abiding citizens.
Take note Americans, before it's too late!
Will you be one of the sheep to turn yours in?
WHY? You will need it.
FORWARD TO EVERYONE ON YOUR EMAIL LIST.
DON'T BE A MEMBER OF THE SILENT MAJORITY.
BE ONE OF THE VOCAL MINORITY WHO WON 'T STAND FOR NONSENSE

AUSTRALIA: MORE VIOLENT CRIME DESPITE GUN BAN

[RA1]

I own several guns. I have a permit to carry a concealed gun (or openly in some cases). I fervently hope I never have any reason to use one BUT I am not willing to have another use one on me without a fight (fair or otherwise).

The background check is somewhat of a political issue. I am against the interference of government but I know of no other reasonable way to screen out known crazies. Therefore some kind of background check seems in order.

What I really object to is issuing a permit to carry or even own a gun without training. It is wrong that some states allow carry permits simply because one is not a felon or known crazy. That is not enough. I am pretty much on board with the TN law that allows gun clubs and shooting ranges to conduct classes that conform to the law but are not "controlled" by the government per se. After graduation which includes several hours of classroom instruction, a written test and a firing range test that results in a certificate from the school good to allow one to apply to the state of TN for a carry permit.

This approach gives a multiple "look" at gun carry permit applicants to include the government, the school and the various involved folks (as well as any seller of a gun reputed to be used in this manner).

Best regards,

RA1

[MsGuy]

Take note Americans, before it's too late!
Will you be one of the sheep to turn yours in?
WHY? You will need it.
FORWARD TO EVERYONE ON YOUR EMAIL LIST.
DON'T BE A MEMBER OF THE SILENT MAJORITY.
BE ONE OF THE VOCAL MINORITY WHO WON 'T STAND FOR NONSENSE

Tomcal, something about the wording of the email quoted in your post makes me wonder if it was actually written by an Australian. The screed reads like it was written in standard American English to me.

Which in turn makes me question the authenticity of the statistics he uses to make his case.

Sorry to be a doubting Thomas, but do you have any way of verifying the authorship?

[MsGuy]

I just googled "Ed Chenel" and, inter alia, found the this analysis of his email by snopes.com.

Their analysis reads reasonably enough to me but then several NRA types have commented that the snopes folks are known liberal pinkos of the worse sort so maybe further research is in order.

PS Mr. Chenel's email was first posted in 2001 so, if we project the murder rate percentage increase forward to the present, the entire Australian state of Victoria would be depopulated by now and there would few, if any, oldsters left in the whole of Australia.

Do we have an Australian poster on Boytoy that can verify this for us? RA1, have you had occasion to fly Down Under in the last few years? Seems like some Aussie would have mentioned to you the mass slaughter going on, at least in passing.

[RA1]

Yes, I have been to Melbourne and Sydney and there seems to be no diminishing of population there. I agree the wording seems entirely unAustralian. However, I do agree that when ordinary citizens have no guns, only the crooks will have them. Regardless, that likely will not prevent good Ozzies from protecting themselves, one way or another. Still, restricting law abiding citizens seems a bit much.

Best regards,

RA1

[lookin]

For anyone who's feeling overinformed and underarmed, here's a look at places where gun dealers outnumber museums and libraries. The rest of us are stuck in the states at the top of the list.

[RA1]

I am hoping you feel very safe there in CA.

Best regards,

RA1

[lookin]

I try to keep my head down.

[Guest epigonos]

I'm one of a strange breed of Republicans. I definitely believe in a some forms of gun control.

I grew up with a father who enjoyed bird hunting and thus owned several shotguns -- I see no problem with this. I grew up with cousins who enjoyed deer and elk hunting and used the meat from those animals -- I see no problem with this. However one doesn't need magazines with more than ten rounds to hunt deer and elk -- I do see a problem with these huge magazines currently allowed in many U.S. jurisdictions. I had friends who owned hand guns that they used for target practice – I do see a problem with this. These friends always argued that they also had the handguns for protection – I do see a problem with this. If one really wants to have a gun in the home for protection a shotgun is the way to go – with a shotgun one won’t miss the home invader with a handgun one is likely to do so.

Thus my gun control laws would be as follows: 1.) All long guns would have to be registered and background check performed on owners. No magazines of more than ten rounds would be permitted. 2.) A complete ban on the private ownership of hand guns. 3.) Owners of stolen guns, used in the execution of a crime, would be subject to a major fined for improper storage of their guns.

Obviously the NRA isn’t going to think much of my ideas. Ask me if I give a shit.

[RA1]

Wouldn't owners of stolen guns be felons by definition? And, would they not add additional felonies to their list of crimes using them for that purpose? Guns don't kill people as part of a crime without a felon to pull the trigger.

Probably you mean that owners of guns who have them stolen should be subject to a penalty? Isn't this a version of, it isn't the criminal's fault, it is society's fault? Will no one take responsibility for one's own actions any longer?

Best regards,

RA1

[JKane]

John Oliver did a great extended segment on Australia's gun control laws and their aftermath a couple years ago...

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOKWcH1zBl2kfnCwyyZWk5MW28lgaNa7L

[Guest epigonos]

Yes RA1 you are I correct I meant "owners of guns who have them stolen should be subject to a penalty", sorry if that wasn't clear. No I don't think it is an example of "it isn't the criminal's fault, it is society's fault". I believe responsible gun owner should have their guns stored in tamper proof home gun lockers. I have several friends who have them and thieves can't usually access them. I absolutely despise the expression: "Guns don't kill people; people kill people" it's simplistic. Most people killed by hand guns are killed my a family member either accidently or during an argument. If the gun hadn't been readily available they would not have been killed. When I was sixteen my dad nearly shot me as late one evening, when I returned home without my key, rather than wake my parents, I attempted to crawl through the window of my bedroom. Fortunately my dad waited long enough for me to identify myself and then I got told off in spades.

[RA1]

Good for your dad.

Best regards,

RA1

[Guest yazoo]

A little late, but just saw this thread. I find that information is generally easily available from the Australian Government - more-so than in the US, where they almost demand a FOIA request for a phone number. The only thing that can be frustrating is that they don't generate the same reports year after year, or the time lag can be frustrating - in this day and age, you'd think you could get more recent information. As a side note, the Australian Financial Year starts 1 July; government reports tend to follow that same schedule (July to June of the next year).

Anyhow - the most recent National Homicide Monitoring Program Report, from the Australian Government [Australian Institute of Criminology] was released on Feb 5, 2015. It included the following summary:

• From 1 July 2010 to 30 June 2012, there were a total of 479 homicide incidents—236 in 2010–11 and 243 in 2011–12.
• Since 2001–02, there has been a downward trend in the homicide rate, decreasing from 1.8 per 100,000 to 1.1 in the 2010–11 and 2011–12 financial years.
• Knives continue to be the most commonly used weapon, with 42 percent (n=98) of all homicide incidents in 2010–11 involving knives/sharp instruments. This decreased to 33 percent (n=79) in 2011–12.
• During the period between 2010–11 and 2011–12, approximately one in 10 (n=69; 14%) homicide incidents involved the use of a firearm (note: this is the same percentage as 2008-2009, which also included: "The majority of all firearms used in homicide incidents were reported by the police as unregistered and/or unlicensed. Overall, firearm involvement and in particular the involvement of handguns in homicide incidents, remains at an historical low".