The Whole Race Thing In Brazilian Saunas....

[Walker]

Oh ok. Thanks for clearing that up. But I still won't go there due to their no shirt off policy.

[Gotti]

There is no racial Harmony in Brazil, but they wouldn't go so far because the law don't allow. A decade or maybe 2 ago a posh golf club in Rio forbid Asians from becoming members, the guys in question were a few rich Japanese men that got transferred to Brazil to lead a major Japanese company. Since they had money they hired a top lawyer, sued the club and won. I don't know what the outcome would be if a top lawyer was not involved but it served to send a message and hopefully things like that don't happen anymore, but to short the story: the bad seed is there!

[JAYBLK]

On 4/29/2015 at 1:18 AM, parisrio2000 said:

lol @ bolded part

Number of whites is wildly overstated and the number of blacks understated, when, in fact, by American definitions, most of Brazil is black. Of course you must know this.

Too right Paris!! Hence my earlier assertion that Obama is not Black in Brazil. Neymar has been known to OBJECT to being called Black. The Iberian slaveocracy was built on the foundation of Blacks as subhumans just as the northern European versions were. The difference is that the Portuguese and the Spanish provided an escape hatch from the benighted class in the form of an intermediate class, mulatto or mestizo in the Spanish context and Pardo in Brazil. That way, even the higher access to resources that sometimes extended from European parentage could not be used to topple the whole system and threaten the forced labor camps. Americans like WEB DuBois, Booker T. Washington, Frederick Douglass, Thurgood Marshall,, Barack Obama, Doug Wilder, Maynard Jackson would, none of them, have been considered Black in Brazil which may be why Brazil has not ever had such leaders.

[Latbear4blk]

I am kind of surprised when some members speak so confidently about what is Black in America or anywhere. But let's stay in America. I am not a native and my knowledge of American culture is poorer than most of you all, so I am not being sarcastic when I say I am surprised. 

One thing I did learn about American culture is its immense diversity. I tend to be skeptical when things are qualified as American, and more open when values and costumes are described as Washingtonian, Californian, etc. Even American identity is in quite a crisis nowadays, look at the political landscape. 

So I am surprised when you come up with what seems to be an American definition of Black, and double surprised when you specifically bring the example of Obama. I remember that many Americans questioned that Obama was being denied as Black and not as Biracial. Could you please explain a little bit more what you mean, @JAYBLK?

I am assuming you are American when I ask you that question, that is why I do not ask you about your assertion of a Brazilian definition of Black. If I am wrong and you are actually Brazilian, my question is similar. The little bit I know about Brazil makes me believe that are huge differences between who is Black In Rio Grande do Sul and in Bahia. 

I also have a question for @Gotti. You highlight that there is no racial harmony in Brazil. I am 100% in agreement. Do you know any place where there is racial harmony? 

[Badboy81]

3 hours ago, Latbear4blk said:

I am kind of surprised when some members speak so confidently about what is Black in America or anywhere. But let's stay in America. I am not a native and my knowledge of American culture is poorer than most of you all, so I am not being sarcastic when I say I am surprised. 

One thing I did learn about American culture is its immense diversity. I tend to be skeptical when things are qualified as American, and more open when values and costumes are described as Washingtonian, Californian, etc. Even American identity is in quite a crisis nowadays, look at the political landscape. 

So I am surprised when you come up with what seems to be an American definition of Black, and double surprised when you specifically bring the example of Obama. I remember that many Americans questioned that Obama was being denied as Black and not as Biracial. Could you please explain a little bit more what you mean, @JAYBLK?

I am assuming you are American when I ask you that question, that is why I do not ask you about your assertion of a Brazilian definition of Black. If I am wrong and you are actually Brazilian, my question is similar. The little bit I know about Brazil makes me believe that are huge differences between who is Black In Rio Grande do Sul and in Bahia. 

I also have a question for @Gotti. You highlight that there is no racial harmony in Brazil. I am 100% in agreement. Do you know any place where there is racial harmony? 

Ill add my 2 cents even though you asked specific people questions Im sure they will answer...

Not sure what is described as Washingtonian or Californian...Cultural norms are completely different than things that are regional or maybe things statewide...

In the US, the color of your skin definitely be what you are acknowledged as versus in Brazil, I have seen BLACK guys that look like me but are professionals or come from money and consider themselves black...

In the US, your skin color often dictates what you are...ie, President Obama looks like an African American man so he is black....it is very rare for somebody to actually identify them self as Bi Racial based on how they look....there are TONS of biracial Americans that look white or black but we just acknowledge them based on how they look...some goes for black and Asian or black and Latino....there is just now a huge movement to self identify as Afro Latino or Afro Asian, etc....Tyson Beckford is Afro Asian and Lala Anthony is Afro Latino...Paula Patton is biracial but looks like a white woman, etc...

As far as the issues differing in different parts of Brazil...more or less extreme...its just like in the states...there are states that are clearly more liberal or racists and cities with little minorities versus meccas like DC and Atlanta....

Brazil has more to do with wealth and education....A good friend of mine said me simply having money and being American, I can consider myself white in Brazil....(Not even sure HOW...LOL)

Most of the poor in Brazil are darker skinned people of African descent and the huge majority of wealth belongs to the Brazilians who look very European....

There are issues with jobs, education, equal rights, etc in Brazil that America is still dealing with BUT not on such a large scale

Both countries have issues with police brutality among the black race..

[JAYBLK]

5 hours ago, Latbear4blk said:

I am kind of surprised when some members speak so confidently about what is Black in America or anywhere. But let's stay in America. I am not a native and my knowledge of American culture is poorer than most of you all, so I am not being sarcastic when I say I am surprised. 

One thing I did learn about American culture is its immense diversity. I tend to be skeptical when things are qualified as American, and more open when values and costumes are described as Washingtonian, Californian, etc. Even American identity is in quite a crisis nowadays, look at the political landscape. 

So I am surprised when you come up with what seems to be an American definition of Black, and double surprised when you specifically bring the example of Obama. I remember that many Americans questioned that Obama was being denied as Black and not as Biracial. Could you please explain a little bit more what you mean, @JAYBLK?

I am assuming you are American when I ask you that question, that is why I do not ask you about your assertion of a Brazilian definition of Black. If I am wrong and you are actually Brazilian, my question is similar. The little bit I know about Brazil makes me believe that are huge differences between who is Black In Rio Grande do Sul and in Bahia. 

I also have a question for @Gotti. You highlight that there is no racial harmony in Brazil. I am 100% in agreement. Do you know any place where there is racial harmony? 

In the USA, Black is an ethnic group generally characterized by darker skin and/or a family experience of multi-generational forced labor. I say generally, because there are those with extremely light skin, see Obama aid Valerie Jarrett who considers herself Black and people with no family history of being worked to death, see Barack Obama, who also considers himself Black.  Moreover, in the USA, by law in half the country, for centuries, anyone with any perceptible or provable genetic connection to an African was considered Black no matter what they looked like or how remote the connection. This meant that the condition of Blackness was permanent and permanently heritable. Thus, it was impossible to simultaneously believe in the inferiority of Blacks and yet think yourself better than an animal if you were visibly or provably Black. In Latin America, this was/is not the case. It is possible to "mejor la sangre" (improve the blood) by copulating with a European and producing offspring who were not Black. Thus, it was intellectually possible both to internalize the racist lies and yet love your children because they were not Black. Hence, national movements for civil rights came much later to places like Brazil and Cuba. My Brazilian and Cuban friends often say to me that Pardos/Mulatos are doing well in the USA because we have had a pardo potus, Obama, two pardo secretaries of state ( Powell and Rice), a pardo attorney general ( Holder) Pardo governors of Virginia ( Wilder) and Massachusetts ( Patrick). They say, then, perhaps things will be looking up for Blacks someday too. In an American context, each of those people would be horrified by the idea that they are not Black while in Brazil, or Cuba, or Panama, or Colombia or the DR, none of them is Black.

 

[SolaceSoul]

Jayblk has the most precise explanation here. And every poster has made salient points.

In Brazil, the legendary soccer player Pele, due to the meteoric socioeconomic standing to which he rose, who came from one of the worst favelas in Brazil to become one of the greatest athletes, was / is considered “white” — and he is as dark as asphalt. This concept would be laughed at and even sneered at in the USA: the black person who would claim to be white would be scoffed at as self-loathing by communities of color, and white people would definitely not embrace him as white (although he would benefit from a higher economic class due to his status). 

As mentioned here before, I come from a family of very fair-skinned black Americans, with a grandfather who was a darker Afro-Latino. There is no “bi-racial” in my family, similar to that of the fabled loving one white parent / one black parent like Barack Obama had. In fact, the last relative from our family tree to have a white parent was my great grandmother on my father’s side — who was the product of a white rape in the South in the 1900s. Our light skin comes from white slavemasters, overseers and sharecroppers raping black women with impunity. Most of my family, myself included, are as fair skinned as Derek Jeter, Vanessa Williams, Wentworth Miller or Paula Patton — complete with lighter eyes, freckles and lighter hair.

And no one in our family is considered white. Other than a great aunt who moved from Louisiana to upstate NY in the 1950s and “passed for white” (another uniquely American concept), everyone in my family is called black,  and proudly identifies with black. The light skin has nothing to do with it, or even the features. It’s the black heritage, the black parents, the black in the family tree — the black blood, if you will. In the USA, that historic  “one-drop rule” still applies — and the term “mulatto” is considered just as wholly offensive and dated to the slavery era as “mandingo” is.

Due to the African slave trade and its variances in brutalities, Black people in Latin and South America have both shared histories with and distinct histories from African-Americans in the USA. Brazilians are far more historically and culturally in tune with the concept of “mixed-race”, most likely because they’ve (at least the European men and the indigenous / African women have been) openly been screwing each other for centuries. However, it isn’t exactly the racial utopia that some claim it is. Although economic class can improve a darker Brazilian’s standing (as in the Pele example), the truth is that most multi-generationally impoverished Brazilians and most lower-class Brazilians are a lot less European-looking than the lit middle-class or upper-class counterparts. Servants and backroom restaurant laborers tend to be dark. — as fo the perpetually unemployed and underemployed. Unspoken Jim Crow-styled regulations still culturally and legislatively exist in many/most parts of Brazil.

It would be more accurate to describe Brazil’s issues as colorism and classism, while the USA definitely has a serious racism problem, with classism and colorism taking back seats to racism.

And don’t even get me started on The Dominican Republic! That place’s colorism issues are enough to fill a year of National Geographic issues. The hatred and disdain shown to their darker fellow Haitian islanders is deeply disturbing.

A conversation that I always have with Latin Americans / Brazilians during my travels as an African-American who would be considered branco/ blanco, pardo / mulatto / mestizo instead of preto / negro in Brazil / The DR, goes a lot like this:

”In America, Barack Obama, Mariah Carey, Halle Berry, Beyoncé, Derek Jeter, Tiger Woods, Meghan Markle, Paula Patton and  Vanessa Williams are all considered black. And you would be, too!”

BTW, Cuba? It’s no coincidence that the majority of Cubans (anti-Castro regime, mostly economic exiles, majority Republican) in South Florida are white(r), and the Afro-Cubans (the ones who are generally more favorable to Castro regimes), when you actually go into the barrios of Havana Este and inland, are mostly the ones on the island. Cuba is a LOT blacker than one would see in America and tourism areas.

 

 

[Latindude]

As a Brazilian it is interesting to read some opinions about this race situation in Brazil. But I have to disagree with many opinions in here. 

It was mentioned that Pele is considered white? I think by no means Pele is considered white by Brazilians, ask any Brazilian and the answer will be black. Obama is also considered black by most Brazilians - but in logical terms he is brown, he would be classified as Pardo in Brazil. Maybe what the poster means is that the prejudice in Brazil is more based on the wealth than on the color itself, since most of Brazilian are mixed. For example - as Pele became very rich and famous, it was considered normal that he had a relationship with Xuxa a Brazilian blond TV presenter. 

In Brazil we have different classifications for color and race. As color classification we have (according to IBGE):

color: branco/white, preto/black, pardo/brown, amarelo/yellow (Asian), and indígena/indigenous. 

For race terms both black/preto and brown/pardo people are considered “negro” (black). So most of Brazilian population is considered from “raça negra” (black race). 

However it is true that many people still prefer to declare them as pardo/brown instead of black, since sadly there is still this stigma. 

But going back to the question of prejudice - since from colonial times it has more to do with the social level than just with color itself (maybe a combination of both), for example a slave could buy his/her own freedom (alforria) - if able to save some money - and many slaves did that, so they were living normally as any other citizen. There were also  many black women that  got married with aristocrats - a famous character form Brazilian colonial era was Chica da Silva, a brown slave, who managed to get her freedom, and then got married to the richest man in Brazil at that time (a diamonds trader). Of course they had some hard times, but since they had money they were accepted by the society. 

It has been the rule in Brazil for generations - being black, brown, gay, whatever -If you have money you are going to be accepted at some point - yes you can get some resistance in the beginning, but you are going to be accepted. 

[Blackoch]

@Latindude

i appreciate your insight but can socio-economics be sepsrsted from race in any country that was built on slavery?

 Isn't it harder for a darker skin to work in the service industry in Latin America? If so, how can one be expected to improve his or her socio economics outside of sport & entertainment?

I have always felt like it was a cop-out use to push the "Racial Democracy " myth and not deal with the actual issue.

 

I do see value in people being able to embrace all parts of themselves (including the white heritage). But sadly, this is often use in order to draw a division between dark skin black (like me) and lighter skin ones.

in the USA, we had the same house slave (lighter skin blacks who were allowed to work inside the slave owner's house)  Vs. Field slaves (darker and could only work in the field). But i am glad that in the US,  people of color realize that this ranking system was bad for everybody as it would by definition still put white people at the head of the food chain.

We still have colorism issues in the USA but nowhere near what we see in Latin America.

Dark skin have access to all kind of jobs at the very top of their professions: Johnny Cochran (legal),  Ben Carson (medical), Oprah...

Every major us cities has had a dark skin black mayor.

And a light skin man who wants to become president can marry a dark skin women and see her be a political advantage: Michelle Obama. 

[Latbear4blk]

I do not think this is a competition to declare the winner in the race for the most Racist country. I thought we were discussing Race to better understand the different ways than Racism take in different socio-cultural-political contexts. 

I appreciate @Latindude contribution for many reasons, but specially because I was thinking the same when I was reading other posters, but I was not sure because I do not know Brazil as well.

Look at the success of Racism in Argentina, where there is an official history and a mainstream self image that does not correlate with reality. Many if not most Argentines would be offended if you point out to racist discrimination in the national culture. I agree that like in Brazil classism is more important, however it is often so intertwined with racism that is hard to tell what predominates. 

[Riobard]

For anyone interested in having your head spun around regarding Brasil, just find and read articles on the current mandatory race tribunals for federal employment affirmative action hiring. 

[SolaceSoul]

On 6/10/2018 at 1:18 PM, Latindude said:

 

It was mentioned that Pele is considered white? I think by no means Pele is considered white by Brazilians, ask any Brazilian and the answer will be black. Obama is also considered black by most Brazilians - but in logical terms he is brown, he would be classified as Pardo in Brazil. Maybe what the poster means is that the prejudice in Brazil is more based on the wealth than on the color itself, since most of Brazilian are mixed. For example - as Pele became very rich and famous, it was considered normal that he had a relationship with Xuxa a Brazilian blond TV presenter. 

I was the one who made that remark. Perhaps I could have been clearer. Pele is the one who considers himself white — he said so in a famous American magazine interview in the late 70s (I wish I could find a link to it — but it created a bit of an uproar in the African-American community at the time, and is one of the things that “we” remember most about him and helped to formulate a somewhat skewed opinion amongst African-Americans about racial identity and race relations in Brazil. 

The comment was something along the lines of what you suggest: that his social standing has erased his blackness and that he is now white and experiences no racism. His three wives (I believe Xuxa was included) have all been white. He has never once stood up against racism in Brazil, or even in his own sport of football — and recently was harshly critiqued by a now more Afrocentric generation for encouraging black or pardo soccer players who encounter racism (and by extension, any black person encountering racism) to simply ignore it. 

I’d argue that Pele is more of a product of his nation’s peculiar culture and history of race, color and class than an anomaly of it. It is almost remarkable that a dark black man like Pele from the same era as a light-skinned black man like Muhammad Ali had almost the polar opposite belief and outlook on black pride, black beauty, anti-racism and activism. But that, IMHO, is just indicative of the differences in racial identity in the two largest nations in both of the Americas.

[Latbear4blk]

[Badboy81]

3 hours ago, SolaceSoul said:

I was the one who made that remark. Perhaps I could have been clearer. Pele is the one who considers himself white — he said so in a famous American magazine interview in the late 70s (I wish I could find a link to it — but it created a bit of an uproar in the African-American community at the time, and is one of the things that “we” remember most about him and helped to formulate a somewhat skewed opinion amongst African-Americans about racial identity and race relations in Brazil. 

The comment was something along the lines of what you suggest: that his social standing has erased his blackness and that he is now white and experiences no racism. His three wives (I believe Xuxa was included) have all been white. He has never once stood up against racism in Brazil, or even in his own sport of football — and recently was harshly critiqued by a now more Afrocentric generation for encouraging black or pardo soccer players who encounter racism (and by extension, any black person encountering racism) to simply ignore it. 

I’d argue that Pele is more of a product of his nation’s peculiar culture and history of race, color and class than an anomaly of it. It is almost remarkable that a dark black man like Pele from the same era as a light-skinned black man like Muhammad Ali had almost the polar opposite belief and outlook on black pride, black beauty, anti-racism and activism. But that, IMHO, is just indicative of the differences in racial identity in the two largest nations in both of the Americas.

Great arguments on both parts....

Something to note is that even though both Ali and Pele were kings in their perspective sports, the racism that they would have experienced would have been different...

In the US, no matter how much money or fame a black (light or dark skinned) man would have amassed, he still would have been looked down on and any white women who would have been in a relationship with him or married would have been looked down on in the 60s and 70s....Even though there were tons of black actors and athletes who married white, it was definitely more discreet and not a way to fame the way it is now....ie, you rarely saw photos on James Earl Jones or Sidney Portier wives...while Pele PROUDLY displayed his white women on his arm and they were proud to be with him because of his fame and wealth

Color is definitely a bigger deal in the US versus Brazil, when money is concerned...no matter how much wealth or fame you accumulate, your race will never be mistaken....ie, Obama, OJ...

In Brazil, it is overlooked and has been acceptable for longer when wealth is involved...

Aside from white land owners having Afro-Brazilian mistresses and brides, the products of those relationships were able to then marry lighter and whiter which was not the case in the US...

Here is was more lighter and lighter marrying to create lighter offspring, ie New Orleans and most of Louisiana, part Haiti, DR, damn near all other parts of Latin America...

There biggest difference in the whole black and proud movement is that in Brazil, there was no movement so Pele was just happy to have risen from poverty and to be accepted by other who were in power...

Something that I find amazing is that white there are large numbers of athletes and entertainers here that choose to marry and procreate with white women, the number is so astounding in Brazil that it was a HUGE deal when one major Afro Brazilian male actor that married another black actress....because it is just not the norm

[Badboy81]

On 6/6/2018 at 9:59 AM, SolaceSoul said:

Although economic class can improve a darker Brazilian’s standing (as in the Pele example), the truth is that most multi-generationally impoverished Brazilians and most lower-class Brazilians are a lot less European-looking than the lit middle-class or upper-class counterparts. Servants and backroom restaurant laborers tend to be dark. — as fo the perpetually unemployed and underemployed. Unspoken Jim Crow-styled regulations still culturally and legislatively exist in many/most parts of Brazil.

Great article on skin color and education exclusion which has a large impact on generational poverty as well as generational wealth based on those who have access to higher education thus having opportunity for higher paying careers.

https://revista.drclas.harvard.edu/book/skin-color-and-educational-exclusion-brazil

[Latindude]

On 6/10/2018 at 3:42 PM, Blackoch said:

@Latindude

i appreciate your insight but can socio-economics be sepsrsted from race in any country that was built on slavery?

 Isn't it harder for a darker skin to work in the service industry in Latin America? If so, how can one be expected to improve his or her socio economics outside of sport & entertainment?

I have always felt like it was a cop-out use to push the "Racial Democracy " myth and not deal with the actual issue.

 

I do see value in people being able to embrace all parts of themselves (including the white heritage). But sadly, this is often use in order to draw a division between dark skin black (like me) and lighter skin ones.

in the USA, we had the same house slave (lighter skin blacks who were allowed to work inside the slave owner's house)  Vs. Field slaves (darker and could only work in the field). But i am glad that in the US,  people of color realize that this ranking system was bad for everybody as it would by definition still put white people at the head of the food chain.

We still have colorism issues in the USA but nowhere near what we see in Latin America.

Dark skin have access to all kind of jobs at the very top of their professions: Johnny Cochran (legal),  Ben Carson (medical), Oprah...

Every major us cities has had a dark skin black mayor.

And a light skin man who wants to become president can marry a dark skin women and see her be a political advantage: Michelle Obama. 

@Blackoch you are right,  all countries with slavery background still have the same problems, black population still have the lowest salaries and less opportunities. It is a reality in Brazil - and here it is even a much bigger problem than in USA, black population in USA realized long ago that they should be united and fight for their rights, and also how to empower themselves - we never had that in Brazil - just recently (during Lula’s government) we started having afirmative actions in order to have more black people as government employees in all levels. So we still have a cycle of poverty among black and brown population - poor parents, that can provide just basic education to the their black children...that are going to be poor/uneducated parents of another generation (and that follows) - if you born poor and black in Brazil you really have to fight 10 times more than others.

 

[SolaceSoul]

15 hours ago, Latindude said:

@Blackoch black population in USA realized long ago that they should be united and fight for their rights, and also how to empower themselves - we never had that in Brazil - just recently (during Lula’s government) we started having afirmative actions in order to have more black people as government employees in all levels. So we still have a cycle of poverty among black and brown population - poor parents, that can provide just basic education to the their black children...that are going to be poor/uneducated parents of another generation (and that follows) - if you born poor and black in Brazil you really have to fight 10 times more than others.

 

I understand what you are trying to say. However, what you described in the latter part of your comment is not that much different in the USA. 

I do like the aggressive and more punitive anti-racism laws that were recently instituted in Brazil, though. I know of one (former) garoto that got his ass handed to him in criminal court for calling a dark-skinned black female Brazilian celebrity disparaging racial slurs on the Internet. It was publicized widely in Brazilian media. I wish we’d do more of that in the USA. Our racists here have recently become bolder and more emboldened to say and do whatever they please.

 

 

[SolaceSoul]

An interesting read, whether you’re already familiar with Brazil’s “peculiar” relationship with race or not:

“Ever since his “It’s not like I’m black, you know?” comment, Neymar has served as a focal point in Brazil’s cultural reckoning with racism, whitening, identity and public policy.”

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/06/30/opinion/is-neymar-black-brazil-and-the-painful-relativity-of-race.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur