Tsaraev convicted

[RA1]

Pretty much a foregone conclusion after his attorney admitted he participated.

Here is my question:

The defense attorney's tack is to claim that Tsaraev was unduly under the influence of his radicalized brother. How is that different from, I was just following orders?

Best regards,

RA1

[jgoo]

The only thing I can think of is that his attorney determined that it was impossible to get a not guilty verdict and by using the strategy that he did he was at most hoping that at least one person would take it as a reason to vote against conviction, leading to a hung jury and then a possible plea bargain. Or in the worst case, he was laying the foundation that his client, once convicted, should not be executed because of the undue influence of his brother. He is hoping the jurors will perceive him as a lackey and therefore should get life but shouldn't be put to death.

I will be very surprised is the jury does not come back to say to put him to death.

[MsGuy]

The defense attorney's tack is to claim that Tsaraev was unduly under the influence of his radicalized brother. How is that different from, I was just following orders?

The one appeals to duty, the other to admiration for a sibling. The effort to shift responsibility is essentially the same.

And please note that the vast majority of Germans who made that argument back when got prison terms, often quite short, rather than the noose.

Frankly, similar arguments are often raised on behalf of US servicemen who have behaved badly while in the field, arguments that I find difficult to ignore.

I will be very surprised is the jury does not come back to say to put him to death.

Jgoo, New England polls strongly against the death penalty. Even folks who say they could vote for a death penalty (which they have to do to be put in the jury pool) can find themselves feeling pretty queasy when it comes to actually choosing to kill a young guy who's been sitting in front of them for weeks. The defense team will do everything it can to feed that queasiness. All it takes is one holdout to drop the penalty to life w/o parole.

[AdamSmith]

Sage observations from MsGuy.

My bet is he gets life.

[Guest callipygian]

My bet is he gets life.

And - I hope he lives - forever!

[MsAnn]

The one appeals to duty, the other to admiration for a sibling. The effort to shift responsibility is essentially the same.

And please note that the vast majority of Germans who made that argument back when got prison terms, often quite short, rather than the noose.

Frankly, similar arguments are often raised on behalf of US servicemen who have behaved badly while in the field, arguments that I find difficult to ignore.

Jgoo, New England polls strongly against the death penalty. Even folks who say they could vote for a death penalty (which they have to do to be put in the jury pool) can find themselves feeling pretty queasy when it comes to actually choosing to kill a young guy who's been sitting in front of them for weeks. The defense team will do everything it can to feed that queasiness. All it takes is one holdout to drop the penalty to life w/o parole.

I was always under the impression that he wanted the death penalty.

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Dershowitz-Boston-bomber-death/2014/01/30/id/550025/

[RA1]

How else will he "get" his "promised" virgins? Of course, he could easily be one with a life sentence. At least for a short time.

Best regards,

RA1

[jgoo]

The one appeals to duty, the other to admiration for a sibling. The effort to shift responsibility is essentially the same.

And please note that the vast majority of Germans who made that argument back when got prison terms, often quite short, rather than the noose.

Frankly, similar arguments are often raised on behalf of US servicemen who have behaved badly while in the field, arguments that I find difficult to ignore.

Jgoo, New England polls strongly against the death penalty. Even folks who say they could vote for a death penalty (which they have to do to be put in the jury pool) can find themselves feeling pretty queasy when it comes to actually choosing to kill a young guy who's been sitting in front of them for weeks. The defense team will do everything it can to feed that queasiness. All it takes is one holdout to drop the penalty to life w/o parole.

The legal argument is not about loyalty but rather about the one brother being "brainwashed", for lack of a better word, by the older more influential brother. The similarities is to use the reasoning of someone else with greater power and/or influence to be an excuse for the behavior.

While there may be a general believe against the death penalty in New England, there are enough polls suggesting support in this particular case (and as in many cases with polls, certainly there are others that contradict that) so it may be a case of general vs specific. http://www.umass.edu/newsoffice/article/massachusetts-residents-confident-2014

[MsGuy]

I was always under the impression that he wanted the death penalty.

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Dershowitz-Boston-bomber-death/2014/01/30/id/550025/

MsAnn, Derschowitz is playing a rhetorical trick on you. His purpose is to argue against the death penalty in furtherance of which he posits a scarecrow terrorist panting for his full share of the virgins of Paradise. The real life fellow had every opportunity to die that night. Even at the end, all he had to do was poke his pistol out from under the boat tarpaulin and fire off a couple of rounds at random. Poof--- instant death by cop.

====

Igoo, the poll you cite indicates 59% favor executing Tsarnaev. Six out of 10 is a mite short of 12 out of 12.

I'm not saying that the Feds don't have a better chance in this case than, say, your average rape murdering, cannibalistic pederast case, only that a better chance is not the same as a sure thing.

[MsAnn]

MsAnn, Derschowitz is playing a rhetorical trick on you. His purpose is to argue against the death penalty in furtherance of which he posits a scarecrow terrorist panting for his full share of the virgins of Paradise. The real life fellow had every opportunity to die that night. Even at the end, all he had to do was poke his pistol out from under the boat tarpaulin and fire off a couple of rounds at random. Poof--- instant death by cop.

====

Igoo, the poll you cite indicates 59% favor executing Tsarnaev. Six out of 10 is a mite short of 12 out of 12.

I'm not saying that the Feds don't have a better chance in this case than, say, your average rape murdering, cannibalistic pederast case, only that a better chance is not the same as a sure thing.

You are absolutely correct. After posting, I went to get dinner, and while driving I realized that this BS about being a martyr and wanting to die was just a smoke screen. Just as you mention, I thought about all the times that day and night, he had the opportunity to go out in a blaze of gun fire for all the world to see, and he didn't. Every action he took was to try and save himself.

And your point is well made about Boston.

[Guest callipygian]

You are absolutely correct. After posting, I went to get dinner, and while driving I realized that this BS about being a martyr and wanting to die was just a smoke screen. Just as you mention, I thought about all the times that day and night, he had the opportunity to go out in a blaze of gun fire for all the world to see, and he didn't. Every action he took was to try and save himself.

And your point is well made about Boston.

You came to this reverse conclusion while you were driving to / from / during dinner?

Really?

[lookin]

You came to this reverse conclusion while you were driving to / from / during dinner?

Betty's Boundless Buffet®, I'll bet.

[MsAnn]

Betty's Boundless Buffet®, I'll bet.

Actually ....Chima's boundless buffet. Kinda like Betty's only not as good.

[jgoo]

Igoo, the poll you cite indicates 59% favor executing Tsarnaev. Six out of 10 is a mite short of 12 out of 12.

I'm not saying that the Feds don't have a better chance in this case than, say, your average rape murdering, cannibalistic pederast case, only that a better chance is not the same as a sure thing.

Most recent polls on a national average show a general support of the death penalty at roughly the same level (around 60%). The particulars of any specific case may result in results that are higher or lower. While the chances of getting the unanimous vote for death is a high hurdle, it still does happen on occasion and with sufficient numbers based on past events. A statistic on federal death penalty cases that reached the jury decision point, roughly 34% were sentences to death and considering that a unanimous decision is needed, 1 in 3 death sentences is significant overall. However, focusing in on this particular case, in my opinion it seems to me to have a very high probability of clearing the hurdle. Taking out emotions (which is not often realistic to do), the question will be if the mitigating circumstances can sway the jurors sufficiently to counter sufficiently the aggravating circumstances and victim impact. This is where the issue such as manipulation and brainwashing will be part of the mitigating argument. I don't think loyalty would be a very useful argument for that as the defense wants to focus on his brother's actions and his efforts being the primary driving factor in using his younger brother. Ultimately the only "poll" that matters is the results from the jurors and I am sure both sides were very much aware of this during the selection process.

[RA1]

Why are the feds seeking the death penalty? Do they feel it is a matter of law as written, what the public "demands" or what? If so, where are the pick pockets roaming freely through the crowd during a public hanging? I have not followed any so called in depth reporting of the actions and motives of the feds (in fact I try to avoid thinking about what feds are thinking or doing) so I may have missed any clues.

There is little to no doubt that this guy is guilty and all along I have thought THE question is, what shall the punishment be?

Just musing.

Best regards,

RA1

[TotallyOz]

IMHO, he should be given life without parole and given a cell with a big dick thug. Oh, shit, that is my fantasy.

I do hope they give him life and not death.

[jgoo]

As I expected, he has been sentenced to death (on at least some of the charges)....just announced by CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/15/us/boston-bombing-tsarnaev-sentence/index.html

[RA1]

I suppose MA citizens aren't as progressive as some might think. At least not the ones serving on this jury. As in all US death penalty cases, it will cost more to put him to death than have him serve a "real" life sentence. Therefore it is vengeance or revenge, not economics. Whether or not it is justice will have to wait upon the ages to make that determination.

Best regards,

RA1

[AdamSmith]

At least not the ones serving on this jury.

That's the kicker, of course. As was widely reported, the jury selection process took a while to find enough jurors who were ruled "death-qualified."

[jgoo]

Certainly the jury being open to the possibility of giving a death sentence makes the standard polls of attitudes of the general public in the area not as relevant. But I don't necessarily think it really makes it more or less a bias towards giving that sentence.....just that the possibility exists rather than automatically precluding that possibility by having someone on the jury who is not open to the option, not matter what.

I do, however, think that there is both that aspect of being open to the possibility AND the relevant facts of the specifics in the case that should be considered as to why the death sentence was determined to be justified by the jury. Clearly there is quite a bit of evidence that we, the general public, are not or may not be fully aware of as it was presented in the trial. Some of it may be of an emotional impact (i.e. autopsy details, photos, etc) but certainly it comes down to facts in evidence that the juror has to consider. On the merits of the case and how the charges were structured by the government, it is not surprising (at least to me) that they came back with the death penalty.