AdamSmith Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 ...He divides commentators on language into linguists, who are goodies, and pedants, who are baddies. Linguists describe how language is at the moment; pedants prescribe how they think it should be. Kamm's case against the pedants is compelling. They think that English is really Latin, only with different words, so that to them aggravate is really ad graviorem, meaning, towards something worse. They don't notice when Thomas More or Milton use the word infer when nowadays we're supposed to use imply. They peddle made-up rules about prepositions, and don't appear to know how well written English managed without the possessive apostrophe for most of its history. In short, he wants these blighters to stop grinding you down... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/bookreviews/11408186/Accidence-Will-Happen-the-Non-Pedantic-Guide-to-English-Usage-by-Oliver-Kamm.html Quote
Members MsGuy Posted February 20, 2015 Members Posted February 20, 2015 ==== Tempest in a teapot, AdamSmith. The correct answer is simple enough. I speak Standard English (mileage varies on my written version). Anyone more punctilious than I is a pompous twit. Anyone less is an ignorant buffoon. Problem solved. If you've been worrying your pretty head about anything else lately, I'm always here to help. lookin 1 Quote
AdamSmith Posted February 20, 2015 Author Posted February 20, 2015 But you abjure the serial comma even when it would help comprehension. Rigid purist! That's my last Duchess painted on the wall. I've scraped, but cannot get her off at all. lookin 1 Quote
Members MsGuy Posted February 20, 2015 Members Posted February 20, 2015 Well now, AS, for the life of me I can't recall the last time I spoke a sentence that required a serial comma for comprehension. Just saying. AdamSmith 1 Quote
Members lookin Posted February 20, 2015 Members Posted February 20, 2015 He abjured the serial comma and it wasn't hard to see that sooner more than later a frisson would come to be for I had some things to say to him and no doubt he to me but if punctuation had no role it would drive me up a tree. AdamSmith 1 Quote
AdamSmith Posted February 20, 2015 Author Posted February 20, 2015 Well now, AS, for the life of me I can't recall the last time I spoke a sentence that required a serial comma for comprehension. Others of us unfortunately were not trained in the art of reducing any idea to a form simple enough to convince a lay jury it means whatever you say. Quote
Members MsGuy Posted February 20, 2015 Members Posted February 20, 2015 He abjured the serial comma and it wasn't hard to see that sooner more than later a frisson would come to be for I had some things to say to him and no doubt he to me but if punctuation had no role it would drive me up a tree. Say what? ----- I think it only fair (to me) to point out that I did acknowledge in my initial post that some might say that my writing skills, if closely scrutinized, could just possibly be considered a teeny tiny bit erratic at times. Maybe. Besides I submit that any deficiency I may display in the use of serial commas is entirely down to my long association with Chance, a delightful boy whose idiosyncratic writing style may be bleeding over into mine on occasion. ==== And to AdamSmith: I still think my initial post is a fair send up of the arguments presented in the article to which you linked us. Concise but fair, that's my motto. Oh, and never pedantic! Concise but fair and never pedantic, that's my motto. Hmm, kind, diplomatic? And carefully thought out, of course! So: Concise but fair and never pedantic and kind and diplomatic and carefully... AdamSmith 1 Quote
Members MsGuy Posted February 20, 2015 Members Posted February 20, 2015 It occurs to me that, since I have not the slightest idea of what a "serial comma" might be, perhaps I ought be a little more cautious in vigorously defending my position. I don't suppose any of you folks would be willing to explain the office of a serial comma for me, would you? AdamSmith 1 Quote
AdamSmith Posted February 20, 2015 Author Posted February 20, 2015 I don't suppose any of you folks would be willing to explain the office of a serial comma for me, would you? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma = the Oxford comma. Quote
Members MsGuy Posted February 20, 2015 Members Posted February 20, 2015 So that's what a serial comma is. Well my 8th grade English teacher had no use for the Oxford comma, so (she being my final authority on all things grammatical) neither do I. Except, of course, when absolutely necessary to avoid ambiguity. One mustn't be too dogmatic on these things. Unless one is engaged in an on-line debate; then one must be as dogmatic as possible. AdamSmith 1 Quote
Guest callipygian Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 there is no one on the planet who would not choke to death on their own puke all the while finding this the very best of comedy mankind could offer. That is...unless they already had. Quote
Members lookin Posted February 21, 2015 Members Posted February 21, 2015 He abjured the serial comma and it wasn't hard to see that sooner more than later a frisson would come to be for I had some things to say to him and no doubt he to me but if punctuation had no role it would drive me up a tree. Say what? Well it started out as a verse: He abjured the serial comma And it wasn't hard to see That sooner more than later A frisson would come to be For I had some things to say to him And no doubt he to me But if punctuation had no role It would drive me up a tree. And then I thought I'd take you up on your earlier challenge: Well now, AS, for the life of me I can't recall the last time I spoke a sentence that required a serial comma for comprehension. So I turned it into a sentence that lacked a serial comma and, since I wasn't sure what a serial comma was, I left out all the commas one after the other. I thought perhaps it would be understandable without any commas at all. Clearly it was unclear. Its awkwardness and lack of intelligibility has given me a new respect for commas so I plan to go back to using them, liberally, serially, and, perhaps, in places, where I did not, before. And thanks for indulging some antics. MsGuy and AdamSmith 2 Quote
Members MsGuy Posted February 21, 2015 Members Posted February 21, 2015 Ah but, lookin, if you recite your sentence aloud in a normal speaking voice you'll find that you automatically insert pauses and changes of emphasis and rhythm that clarify its meaning for your listener. For these natural verbal changes of rhythm, etc., the comma and the rest of our inventory of written indicators, are the poorest of substitutes. I'm told that even the convention of inserting a blank space between written words is a medieval invention to help semi-literate monks read their Latin texts. lookin 1 Quote
Members lookin Posted February 21, 2015 Members Posted February 21, 2015 You know, MsGuy, I've been thinking the exact same thing and you have put it much more elegantly than I could express it. I would indeed feel blessed if I could someday write a sentence in which the words carried their own rhythm along with them so that everyone who read it would hear just what I did when I wrote it. Some years ago, I posted another sentence which was a verse strung together and it was so awkward that no one realized what it was. Or, at least, were too kind to mention it. MsGuy and AdamSmith 2 Quote
AdamSmith Posted February 21, 2015 Author Posted February 21, 2015 Some years ago, I posted another sentence which was a verse strung together and it was so awkward that no one realized what it was. Or, at least, were too kind to mention it. Or were they? http://www.boytoy.com/forums/index.php?/topic/2782-martha-stewart-likes-big-wieners/?p=14259 lookin 1 Quote
