Should Scotland be an independent country?

[AdamSmith]

So the Scottish independence referendum is fast approaching. Wonder what posters here think?

[lookin]

Fine! But I'm keeping Balmoral.

[MsGuy]

Bitch, don't be tripping.

You still queen of Scotland.

'Course who the hell wants to be queen of Scotland?

[RA1]

If the Scottish become any more independent than they already are, they may have to adjourn to another planet. Earth won't be sufficient. They already insist upon their own speech habits, customs, whiskey and section of the UK. I think they derive a fair amount of benefit for what they give up to continue as part of the UK.

I cannot envision NC, TN and many other states becoming separate (not even TX) from the US. We tried that once and it did not work. Now the north will have to learn to live with us.

Best regards,

RA1

[AdamSmith]

'Course who the hell wants to be queen of Scotland?

Talk about occupational hazards.

[MsGuy]

Bitch with the axe gonna be suspended indefinitely from the NFL.

[ihpguy]

Freeballin' men in skirts with great hooch is my kind of country. Just TOO FUCKIN' COLD for my bad ticker. Otherwise I'd be in Flanders.

[AdamSmith]

Queen decided on Saturday she would step into referendum debate

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/queen-elizabeth-II/11098151/Queen-decided-on-Saturday-she-would-step-into-referendum-debate.html

[AdamSmith]

Long thoughtful historical retrospective, not a polemic. Well worth the read.

Is this the end of Britishness?

A shared history of 300 years could be washed away if Scotland votes for independence. What was the complex identity the United Kingdom created and should we mourn its loss?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/-sp-is-this-the-end-of-britishness

[AdamSmith]

Gordon Brown's extraordinary speech today:

I want to tell the people of Scotland of that patriotic vision of the future of Scotland.

Proud of our Scottish identity.

Proud of our distinctive institutions.

Proud of the Scottish parliament we have created.

Proud, that with the powers we have given it and without the need of separation, the NHS in Scotland will always be in public hands, properly funded and free at the point of need forever or as long as the people of Scotland want it.

And proud we are increasing the powers of that Parliament decided tomorrow with a 'No' vote, delivery the day after tomorrow which will mean faster, better and safer change than the uncertainty and disruption offered by the Nationalists.

And we are proud also and this too is our patriotic vision that we Scots led in cooperation and sharing across the United Kingdom, from our common defence policy and our shared currency, to UK pensions and the UK minimum wage across four nations, with contributions on the basis of their ability to pay and to each according to their needs.

And contrast this patriotic vision with the Nationalist vision, which is to end all links with the UK, with the risks that entails.

And that is what this vote tomorrow is really about. Not about Scotland being a nation, we are a nation forever yesterday, today and tomorrow. It's not about the Scottish Parliament, we have it and its powers are increasing, but whether and this is the question you want to break every last link with the UK and I say I don't want to end UK pensions, UK passports, the UK pound, the UK welfare state, the UK funded health service or the UK minimum wage.

So let us tell people of what we have done together.

Tell them that we fought and won a war against fascism together.

Tell them there is no war cemetery in Europe where Scots, English, Welsh and Northern Irish troops do not lie side-by-side. We fought together, suffered together, sacrificed together, mourned together and then celebrated together.

 And tell them that we not only won a war together we built a peace together, we created the NHS together, we built a welfare state together.
We did all this without sacrificing within the union our identity, our culture, our tradition as Scots. Our Scottishness is not weaker, but stronger as a result.

And what we created together, let no nationalist split asunder. 

And tell the undecided, the waverers and those to still make up their mind, being falsely told that you cannot be proudly Scottish and vote no, that this is our Scotland.

 Tell them Scotland does not belong to the SNP.

Tell them, Scotland does not belong to the 'Yes' campaign.

 That it doesn't belong to Mr Salmond or Mr Swinney or to me or any other politician.

 Tell them Scotland belongs to all of us.

 And tell the Nationalists, it's not their flag, their culture, their country or their streets.

 Tell them it's everyone's flag, everyone's culture, everyone's country and everyone's streets.



And tell them that our patriotic vision is bigger than nationalism; we want Scotland not leaving the UK, but leading the UK, and through leading the UK, leading in the world.

 And tell the undecided, the unsure, those thinking of voting yes today but who can be persuaded to vote no tomorrow.

 Tell them that we who vote 'No' love Scotland.

 The Scotland of the Scottish Enlightenment and Scottish inventors; the Scotland that is the pioneer of the right to work and yes, the right to free health care; the Scotland that is author of the welfare state and international aid.

 And we achieved all this and far more not outside the Union, but inside the Union.

Not in spite of the Union, but through the Union.

And there is not one part of us that is lesser as a result.

And so tell the undecided, the persuadable and those who were going to vote yes and now see some of the risks. Tell them of the risks. 

Tell them of the seven deadly risks pushing us through an economic trapdoor from which there is no escape. A yes vote runs the risks of a disputed currency, debt default, having to immediately raise tens of billions of pounds for currency reserves, higher prices in the shops, higher mortgage rates, making one million jobs in sectors from defence to finance vulnerable and a fiscal black hole.

Before, it was the risk of the unknown. Now, it's the risk arising from the reality of the known.

But the greatest risk to our health and public services isn't the one posed by independence. The biggest threat to the NHS is not the Union. With their secret plan for half a billion pounds of cuts, it is the SNP.

 Let's tell the people of Scotland they are not saving the NHS but using the NHS to save the SNP.

Let the people of Scotland be clear that the SNP don't wake up in the morning with a mission to save the NHS, they wake up with a mission to use it to create a separate state.

And then tell the undecided, the unpersuaded, those who know the risks and those who think the SNP are progressive, tell them we have a vision for the future of Scotland. 

A vision that will bring a divided Scotland back together again.

 Not a Scotland when the eyes of the world are upon us is a Scotland of intimidation, threats, insults, abuse and recriminations. 

I know the Scotland of Adam Smith and John Smith is better and bigger than this. 

A Scotland, yes, with a strong Scottish parliament for fairness.

 And yes, strong for equality across the UK.

It is not for ourselves alone that we fight; we do not seek prosperity, security and strength for just us and no one else. Everywhere, at every time, at every level, including within the UK, our instinct, our desire, our demand, and our dream for social justice is not through separation, but for a world of social justice. 

This is the dream that we can live for and will never die off. This is the great cause that is worth fighting for and will endure.

For the real separation we want is not from England, but from poverty.

 The real independence we want is not from our neighbours, but from inequality and deprivation.

And the real freedom and liberation we want is not from one country, but freedom from injustice for every country, in every part of the world, now and for the decades to come.


And what message would a Yes vote send to a world of discord, conflict and division, that the Scots who for centuries had championed cooperating across borders through a partnership of solidarity and sharing with the UK, had given up, stopped sharing and smashed partnership with others.

That the Scots had abandoned cooperation and turn their back on solidarity.

That the country which had been a beacon to the world had become smaller, not bigger in the eyes of the world.

Tell them the opposite is true.

 On Friday, if we wake to a 'No' vote, we will still be Scots, Scots yesterday, today and tomorrow, and the work of social justice will go on.

 So tomorrow I will cast my vote not for me, but for my children, for all of Scotland's children and their future.

And to those Nationalists who say this is our time and this is our moment yet know this vote is irreversible, I say this cannot be a vote just for our time. It cannot be a selfish vote, not even for one moment.

This is not a vote just for one time, this is a vote for all time.

 Because this vote cannot be undone or redone, this cannot be a vote just for us, this generation and this time.

When there's no going back I have to take into account my children, our future and the century ahead.

And so if you have any doubts about the future unresolved, any questions unanswered, any risks unexplained, if you don't know, then you have to vote 'No'.

But if you, like me, believe the way forward is not separation but justice through cooperation, then I say to you today:

Hold yourselves with dignity. Have confidence. Our values are the values of the people of Scotland.

 Have confidence. Our stronger Scottish parliament meets the needs and aspirations of the Scottish people.


Have confidence. Our future lies in cooperation and sharing, and not in separation and splitting apart. That unity is our strength. 

Have the confidence to stand up, be counted and say for Scotland's sake: not now, not this time, not the risks, no thanks.

Have confidence to stand up and be counted and say, for Scotland's future, 'No'.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/gordon-brown-delivered-a-passionate-speech-against-independe?s=mobile

[AdamSmith]

The Guardian is having a high old time with its coverage.

...We are already off and running with continuously supplied coverage of the vote, with virtuoso live bloggers Claire Phipps, Paul Owen and our top UK politics blogger Andrew Sparrow taking over for the home stretch. The virtue of the live blog is that even when theres nothing happening, theres something happening, in the form of analysis, background info, apposite anecdotes, entertaining asides, dazzling photography and definitely maps.

We defy you to read the blog and not come away a better-informed, pleasantly amused and possibly even better-looking citizen...

...In the US, C-SPAN 3 will be simulcasting BBC coverage of the referendum, with Huw Edwards hosting, beginning at 5.35pm ET. Recommended.

Be advised that this election will not, however, go the full Blitzer, meaning there simply wont be a granular detail in the results to warrant holograms of news presenters breakdancing on swing counties in Ohio. Worsening matters, the Scots have decided somewhat uncreatively to tally the Yesses against the Nos and declare whichever side has more the winner, instead of jerry-rigging an electoral college to spit out results that are not actually results. That said, if one side is really winning, that may become apparent as late evening falls in the United States...

...To mark this historic occasion, even if it turns out not to be historic although even a No vote would be quite memorable, wouldnt it? the Guardian interactive team has built a single-serving website, AreTheScotsIndependentYet dot com, elegantly summarizing the political disposition of Scotland. Currently the answer is No.

We advise readers to keep the site on your phone or laptop and feverishly refresh it through the night until the No changes to Yes or fails to change to Yes, as the case may be (which still would be a quite notable outcome). If the word has not changed by around 3am ET, it should be safe to stop refreshing, unless by that point you are merely entertaining yourself, in which case by all means carry on.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/18/how-to-follow-watch-scotland-independence-referendum-channel

[MsGuy]

Well, the first of the 32 regional voting districts has reported in with an NO vote by a 54% to 46% margin. Clackmannanshire, in central Scotland, had been thought to be leaning toward the SNP and independence.

I read somewhere that the Republicans in England were calling for a Parliamentary Inquiry into the Queen's behavior. Apparently her cautioning the Scots to "think carefully about the future" has them outraged. I'm not too big on the English royals, but that seems a bit much. (Full disclosure: I did have a bit of a crush on Charles, flappy ears and all, back when I was a teenager.)

[MsGuy]

Here's a live count site for referendum results. Currently with 4 of 32 districts reporting, the vote's about 42% YES and 58% NO.

=====

Inverclyde, a mid-sized city (for Scotland) came in at damn near 50/50. Tiny edge for NO. (SNP needed at least a marginal win here.)

From the way things are going, & since Edinburgh (2nd largest city) is expected to swing substantially NO, now looks like Glasgow will have to go very heavily YES to offset NO votes gradually building up elsewhere. The border districts are thought to be reliably NO areas (although none are reporting yet.).

[MsGuy]

YouGov Plc reported the NO vote at around 54% based on it's exit polling of actual voters.

[AdamSmith]

Election Night Special

(Racy music)

Cleese: (talking very fast, as do all the commentators): Hello, good evening and welcome to Election Night Special. There's tremendous excitement here at the moment and we should be getting the first results through any moment now. We're not sure where it will be from, it might be Leicester or from West Byfleet, the polling's been quite heavy in both areas. Ah, I'm just getting... I'm just getting... a buzzing noise in my left ear. Urgh, argh! (removes insect and stamps on it). And now let's go straight over to Leicester.

Palin: And it's a straight fight here at Leicester and we're expecting the result any moment now. There with the Returning Officer is Arthur Smith the sensible candidate and next to him is Jethro Q. Walrustitty the silly candidate with his agent and his silly wife.

Idle: (clears throat) Here is the result for Leicester. Arthur J. Smith...

Cleese: Sensible Party

Idle: ...30,612. (applause) Jethro Q. Bunn Whackett Buzzard Stubble and Boot Walrustitty...

Cleese: Silly Party

Idle: ...33,108. (applause)

Cleese: Well there's the first result and the Silly Party has held Leicester. What do you make of that, Norman?

Palin: Well, this is largely as I predicted, except that the Silly Party won. Er, I think this is largely due to the number of votes cast. Gerald.

Chapman: Well there's a big swing here to the Silly Party, but how big a swing I'm not going to tell you.

Palin: I think one should point out here that in this constituency since the last election a lot of very silly people have moved into new housing estates with the result that a lot of sensible voters have moved further down the road the other side of number er, 29.

Cleese: Well I can't add anything to that. Colin?

Idle: Can I just say that this is the first time I've been on television?

Cleese: No I'm sorry, there isn't time, we're just going straight over to Luton.

Chapman: Well here at Luton it's a three-cornered contest between, from left to right, Alan Jones (Sensible Party), Tarquin Fin-tim-lim-bim-lim-bin-bim-bin-bim bus stop F'tang F'tang Ole Biscuitbarrel (Silly Party), and Kevin Phillips Bong, who is running on the Slightly Silly ticket. And here's the result.

Woman: Alan Jones...

Cleese: Sensible

Woman: ...9,112. Kevin Phillips Bong...

Cleese: Slightly Silly

Woman: Nought. Tarquin Fin-tim-lin-bin-whin-bim-lim bus stop F'tang F'tang Ole Biscuitbarrel...

Cleese: Silly

Woman: 12,441. (applause)

Cleese: Well there you have it, the first result of the election as the Silly Party take Luton. Norman.

Palin: Well this is a highly significant result. Luton, normally a very sensible constituency with a high proportion of people who aren't a bit silly, has gone completely ga-ga.

Cleese: And we've just heard that James Gilbert has with him the winning Silly candidate at Luton.

Idle: Tarquin, are you pleased with this result?

Palin: Ho yus, me old beauty, I should say so. (Silly noises including a goat bleating).

Cleese: And do we have the swing at Luton?

Chapman: Er... no.

Cleese: (pause) Right, well I can't add anything to that. Colin?

Idle: Can I just say that this is the second time I've been on television?

Cleese: No, I'm sorry there isn't time, we're just about to get another result.

Palin: And this one is from Harpenden Southeast. A very interesting constituency this: in addition to the official Silly candidate there is an unofficial Very Silly candidate, in the slab of concrete, and he could well split the silly vote here at Harpenden Southeast.

Jones: Mrs Elsie Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

Cleese: Silly

Jones: 26,317 (applause). Jeanette Walker...

Cleese: Sensible

Jones: 26,318...

Cleese: Very close!

Jones: Malcolm Peter Brian Telescope Adrian Blackpool Rock Stoatgobbler John Raw Vegetable Brrroooo Norman Michael (rings bell) (blows whistle) Edward (sounds car horn) (does train impersonation) (sounds buzzer) Thomas Moo... (sings) 'We'll keep a welcome in the...' (fires gun) William (makes silly noise) 'Raindrops keep falling on my' (weird noise) 'Don't sleep in the subway' (cuckoo cuckoo) Naaoooo... Smith.

Cleese: Very Silly

Jones: ...two.

Cleese: Well there you have it, a Sensible gain at Harpenden with the Silly vote being split.

Palin: And we've just heard from Luton that Tony Stratton-Smith has with him there the unsuccessful Slightly Silly candidate, Kevin Phillips Bong.

Idle: Kevin Phillips Bong. You polled no votes at all. Not a sausage. Bugger all. Are you at all disappointed with this performance?

Neil Innes: Not at all. As I always say:

Climb every mountain

Ford every stream,

Follow every by-way,

Till you find your dream.

(Sings) A dream that will last

All the love you can give

Every day of your life

For as long as you live.

All together now!

Climb every mountain

Ford every stream...

Cleese: A very brave Kevin Phillips Bong there. Norman.

Palin: And I've just heard from Luton that my aunt is ill. Possibly gastro-enteritis, possibly just catarrh. Gerald.

Cleese: Right. Er, Colin?

Idle: Can I just say that I'll never appear on television again?

Cleese: No I'm sorry, there isn't time, we have to pick up a few results you may have missed. A little pink pussy-cat has taken Barrow-in-Furness -- that's a gain from the Liberals there. Rastus Odinga Odinga has taken Wolverhampton Southwest, that's Enoch Powell's old constituency -- an important gain there for Darkie Power. Arthur Negus has held Bristol -- that's not a result, that's just a piece of gossip. Sir Alec Douglas Hume has taken Oldham for the Stone Dead party. A small piece of putty about that big, a cheese mechanic from Dunbar and two frogs -- one called Kipper the other not -- have all gone 'Ni ni ni ni ni ni!' in Blackpool Central. And so it's beginning to look like a Silly landslide, and with the prospect of five more years' Silly government facing us we... Oh I don't want to do this any more, I'm bored!

Palin: He's right you know, it is a bloody waste of time.

Chapman: Absolute waste of time.

http://www.montypython.net/scripts/election.php

[AdamSmith]

I read somewhere that the Republicans in England were calling for a Parliamentary Inquiry into the Queen's behavior. Apparently her cautioning the Scots to "think carefully about the future" has them outraged. I'm not too big on the English royals, but that seems a bit much. (Full disclosure: I did have a bit of a crush on Charles, flappy ears and all, back when I was a teenager.)

Hah! Points for honesty regarding His Royal Jugheadedness.

Re: QEII's remark, one has to say the old coot doesn't miss a trick. After fumbling the handling of Di's death and the public mood thereon, she has pretty astoundingly remade The Firm's public relations. Her breaking routine to have that little walkabout and make those few remarks outside church struck me as the deftest of touches, even with the ever so slightly heavy-handed staff's unusual inviting of the press to within earshot.

That particular Republican outrage seems destined to go nowhere, especially if she is seen to have helped avert disunion.

[MsGuy]

I'd play the Palin part tonight, AS, and let you have Cleese, but I'm starting to get sleepy. That's why I linked to the live count site in the first place.

Sorry.

======

Oh, and 12 districts are now reporting, only two (albeit largeish ones) went for YES. Count now 46.8 YES and 53.2% NO. About 80% of total vote still out.

=====

And somehow I forgot to mention that the Orkneys have threatened to secede if Scotland votes YES. Seems that they are 90% Norwegian descent, were originally a marriage dower to the English Royals (or some such) from the King of Norway were only recently (like 200 years ago) merged with Scotland and, in any case, have their own unique accent & don't trust those Celts one little bit. Scotland can say goodbye to a lot of that North Sea oil if they pull that off.

[MsGuy]

OK, a bunch of new districts reported and it's about 54/46% NO.

Those totals included Glasgow (which voted YES but by not nearly the margin it would have taken for a SNP win) so it's all over now but the shouting.

Probably lots of drunk Scots tonight and lots of Scotch drunk.

Bedtime for me folks. (kiss)

[lookin]

I read somewhere that the Republicans in England were calling for a Parliamentary Inquiry into the Queen's behavior. Apparently her cautioning the Scots to "think carefully about the future" has them outraged.

Very well then, don't think carefully about the future.

Sheesh!

[AdamSmith]

I'd play the Palin part tonight, AS, and let you have Cleese,

P.S. Well bowled!

[RA1]

Apparently 55% agreed with what I wrote in the beginning of this thread and that is Scotland had more to lose than gain by seceding. One should carry "fierce independence" only so far. I plan on taking my guvmint check when I retire, regardless of what I think about how the country is being run or not run.

What is this having 16 and 17 year olds vote? It is one thing to allow 18 year olds to vote because they can or could be drafted and die for their country even though they lack any experience with life to speak of, but quite another for 16 year olds who aren't even through with secondary schooling yet to be voting. Just call me an old stick in the mud.

Best regards,

RA1

[Guest CharliePS]

I predicted before the vote that the polls showing a tight race would be way off, because many people would feel pressured to SAY they were going to vote 'yes' when they were really going to vote 'no.' They will probably still pretend that they voted 'yes' and grumble about the failure of the referendum.

I don't understand why 16 and 17 year olds were allowed to vote on the referendum, while Scots not living in Scotland were not allowed to vote.

[ihpguy]

What does Sarah Palin have to do with the voting on Scotland?

[AdamSmith]

What does Sarah Palin have to do with the voting on Scotland?

She is equally irrelevant to everything?

[Suckrates]

Hmmmm, i'll have to Ponder the original question ! I'm a bit Distracted right now........