Will Making

[Guest Nabeel]

Looking for a good Lawyer to prepare a Will for both me and my Partner. Anyone had experience of doing this in LoS?

 

Cheers

[Guest luvthai]

Contact your embassy and see if they can recommend a good attorney. I understand they keep a list in case one of their countrymen gets into hot water.

[Gaybutton]

In Pattaya I recommend Rachain Kluanklard. The contact information is as follows:

 

A.C.E.S. Advisors Co., Ltd.

15/35 M. 5

Naklua

Banglamung

Chonburi 20150

 

Telephone: 038-411 127

 

Fax: 038-425 109

 

Email: aces@loxinfo.co.th

 

They speak English and they do respond to Email. The location is in the Balcony Restaurant, top floor. Don't confuse that with the Balcony Pub in Bangkok. Those are two different places and the only similarity is the name. That's on North Road (Pattaya Nua), near the Tesco-Lotus. The reason they're in the same building as the restaurant is because Rachain owns the restaurant.

 

I also recommend, as does Luvthai does, that you contact your embassy, not only for a list but also for information. When I asked the USA embassy about it I was told that whether you have a Thai will or not, the embassy contacts your next of kin and all decisions are up to your next of kin. You might want to double check that or ask your own embassy if you are not a USA citizen.

[Guest laurence]

Looking for a good Lawyer to prepare a Will for both me and my Partner. Anyone had experience of doing this in LoS?

 

Cheers

 

GB mentions that all decisions, per US embassy, are up to next of kin. True for disposition of your remains but not for dispositon of your estate in Thailand. A will normally is meant to dispose of your possesions not necessarily to dispose of your remains although some people combine the two.

I have had experience with a lawyer in Pattaya which cost about 4000 Baht. Will try to PM the name if I have it availble.

[Guest Nabeel]

Thanks for the info Guys.

 

I am A UK citizen, and have no next of kin. Just trying to make sure that he has a smooth ride sorting out the cars, bikes, pensions, insurance etc.

 

 

[Guest Nabeel]

GB mentions that all decisions, per US embassy, are up to next of kin. True for disposition of your remains but not for dispositon of your estate in Thailand. A will normally is meant to dispose of your possesions not necessarily to dispose of your remains although some people combine the two.

I have had experience with a lawyer in Pattaya which cost about 4000 Baht. Will try to PM the name if I have it availble.

 

 

Thanks L

 

Hope u can do that for us.

[Guest MRSBUCKET]

I can recommend 'Swiss Siam' in Threpprasit Road.

They have a large clientele of Europeans, many of which are English and well known in Pattaya.

They speak English well and a very helpful service.

Making a Will with them is an easy exercise.

[mahjongguy]

In my safe, along with copies of my U.S. Will and my Thai Will, I keep a letter of instruction addressed to the U. S. Embassy. This letter details my wishes for disposition of my remains, and it requests that they treat my partner as next of kin.

[Gaybutton]

I keep a letter of instruction addressed to the U. S. Embassy. This letter details my wishes for disposition of my remains, and it requests that they treat my partner as next of kin.

 

That's a good idea, but I would still recommend that you check with the embassy and find out if they will honor that letter. Based on what I was told they won't, even if the embassy notarizes it.

 

Bear in mind that I spoke with only one embassy official, but he was the chief of American Citizens Services at the time. It sounds just like Thai banking. One branch tells you one thing, and another branch tells you something entirely different. Meanwhile, none of us really knows or has assurances about just what the embassy will actually do.

 

I think what we need to find out is whether an actual policy exists, or better still a written policy about this sort of thing. If there is one, we need to obtain a copy of it. Right now, as it stands, we're either guessing or taking the word of an embassy official. It seems to me it would stand to reason that there must be some way of guaranteeing that our individual wishes will be honored.

[Guest Hedda]

Based on discussions with US Embassy employees, you must assume that the US Embassy in Bangkok will not recognize your partner as next of kin, if you have any living relatives. They will insist that such relative(s) agree to any disposition of your remains, etc.

 

I have included in my will a signed notarized statement from my next of kin (my brother) ratifying all post-mortem decisions made by my partner. I have also included my brother's email address in case the Embassy insists on direct contact to reaffirm this after I die, which is probable.

 

If you have no living relatives, you should say so in your Will and designate your partner as your next of kin for all purposes. The Embassy will not abide by your directions in your will for the disposition of your remains unless your next of kin, whoever that is, agrees.

 

Sorry, but I don't know what the UK embassy policy is on such estate matters.

 

[2lz2p]

I have advised my next of kin that I wish to be cremated here in Thailand and that arrangements be made by my Thai partner of "umpteen" years (and, I hope, many more to come). I also left a letter with my Executor, who has custody of my USA will, expressing my wishes in the matter. Although my next of kin is not "bound" by my request, I am certain he will carry them out (especially since he would have to "foot the bill" if he wanted my remains returned to USA).

 

The Pattaya City Expats Club website also has the following information:

 

Information on US Embassy list of attorneys

 

US Embassy procedures regarding death of US Citizen in Thailand

 

 

 

 

[Gaybutton]

I'm having difficulty making sense out of this. The part that's on my "I Don't Get It" list is the fact that it seems like no matter what you do, your next of kin makes the ultimate decisions. Why? Why can't your own will and/or specified wishes take precedence over leaving the decision-making up to your next of kin?

 

I could understand if the policy was that your own specified wishes take precedence unless there is something unfeasible about your wishes. In that case, that's when your next of kin would take over the decision making. Why is it not done that way?

 

Also, there is an apparent assumption that you even have a next of kin. Suppose you don't? What happens then? Who makes the decisions?

 

I am also curious as to who decided it should be done this way in the first place. Is this strictly embassy policy, designed by the embassy, or is this a standard State Department policy.

 

The embassy statement says, "By law, the Department of State cannot carry out instructions on the disposition of the remains until we have received the required funds." Why can't funds be either sent or placed in some sort of an escrow account, available to the embassy, prior to your death, so that your own wishes can be guaranteed?

[Bob]

I'm having difficulty making sense out of this. The part that's on my "I Don't Get It" list is the fact that it seems like no matter what you do, your next of kin makes the ultimate decisions. Why? Why can't your own will and/or specified wishes take precedence over leaving the decision-making up to your next of kin?

 

This has been a problem in most countries for hundreds of years because society (mainly the religious element but some general cultural components) and the law have never come up with clear answers to some fundamental questions. Questions like what is the body - a chattel (piece of personal property) - and who the heck "owns it" after death? Practically speaking, at least in the west (likely applies elsewhere as well), one's Will isn't worth much unless and until a Court "admits it to probate" (which effectively means that it's the valid deal and controls distribution of the decedent's property) and that isn't done usually until long after we're taking a dirt nap (or have had our final "smoke").

 

This issue (rather simple really: who controls your carcass after your death and do you have the right to make instructions that this person must follow) will only be finally resolved when a legislature makes a law setting fixed rules. If and when a legislature takes up that issue, be prepared for a bizzare donnybrook of competing interests. Obviously, a surviving spouse ought to have the right to say how things work. But what if the spouses have been separated for 10 years and Mr. Dead Guy has been living with a girlfriend or his parents for that time period? What about a single woman who's parents are dead and she only has one sibling who she hates but has been living with a guy in a common law marriage for 25 years? And, of course, what about the guy/gal who's closest human companions for 30 years have no "legal" relationship at all?

 

With respect to the next-of-kin rules applied by many embassies, my guess is that's based on historical practice and not any particular law of the home or host country. That ought to change but I'm doubtful it will anytime soon.

 

This historical practice ("we do it this way because we always have done it this way") actually controls many things. It's only been in the last 20 years that most US states have adopted laws which allow a living person to designate somebody to make medical decisions for them after they were unconcious or incompetent. Rather incredible that it took until the 1990's for this issue to be codified, isn't it? I wonder what Thailand's rules are about who gets to make those choices (i.e., does Thailand have a Patient Advocate law that would apply to us and are we allowed to name our Thai friends to make medical decisions for us?). I wonder if anyone (GB?) might know something about this issue?

 

For me, I have designated in my Will what is to be done (cremation and disposition down the nearest porcelain receptacle - a procedure my younger brothers fondly call the "terminal swirly") and have designated a close friend (who I've told what I want done) to handle things. But I also have 9 siblings who survive, a couple of whom probably just can't stop themselves from inserting themselves into the fray (in spite of my expressions to the contrary). Will things happen the way I want them to happen? Hell if I know (but, frankly, I probably won't fret too much myself about it at the time).

[Gaybutton]

I wonder if anyone (GB?) might know something about this issue?

 

All I know is that Thailand recently started allowing people to make a living will. That's not the problem. The problem is getting a Thai doctor and/or hospital to honor that will. It is my understanding that most Thai doctors and hospitals refuse to honor the living will and they're going to keep you alive as long as possible whether you want that or not.

 

It might be a good idea to discuss that with various hospitals. If you find one that will honor your wishes, then it is also probably a good idea to let your friends in Thailand know which hospital is your preference in case something happens to you, if that would do any good.

 

It still makes no sense to me that you have no real say-so as to what is to be done with your body after your death. As I said above, I could understand if whatever you want done is unfeasible for any reason, and then start worrying about a next of kin, but they just won't do it that way.

 

I wonder what the embassy does if there is nobody for them to contact. Can you imagine that? You know you are about to die and you have no idea what's going to be done with your body. Maybe they'll give it to a vendor and he can try to sell it at the beach.

 

My preference is for mine to be cremated in the usual manner at Pattaya's Wat Chai. If for some reason that can't be done, then maybe someone can arrange to do what George Carlin recommended: Just have my body blown up. That way, anyone who wants to drop by can view the explosion and say, "There he goes . . . . ."

[Bob]

Somewhat similar to the George Carlin story, the wealthy socialite, upon receiving her husband's ashes, dressed in a formal attire, lit candles at the dining room table, poured the ashes on the table, and then scattered the ashes all over the room by puffing several hard breaths at the ashes.

"There's that blow job you always wanted, you bastard!"

[Gaybutton]

"There's that blow job you always wanted, you bastard!"

 

I love it! Perhaps you remember the old television comedy, "Maude." In one episode Maude and her husband Walter check into a lakeside hotel with an urn containing her uncle's ashes. The uncle had requested his ashes to be scattered over the lake. While Maude and Walter are out, the room maid, without realizing what is actually in the urn, flushes the ashes down the toilet. When Maude realizes what happened, she says to Walter, "Well, at least he made it to the lake."

[Guest laurence]

For me, I have designated in my Will what is to be done (cremation and disposition down the nearest porcelain receptacle - a procedure my younger brothers fondly call the "terminal swirly") and have designated a close friend (who I've told what I want done) to handle things.

 

Good post, Bob. Hope you are joking about the final dump? Ashes, unlike shit, will surely clog up any drain pipe. Of course if it happens in Thailand then you could just dump them in the storm sewer just like the locals do with anything they wish to dispose of.

 

In the US I have had experience with who makes the final decision. In some states the hospital seem to just accept the word of anyone who lays claim to the body. Usually the person who has been the steady visitor. But other states are very strict and demand proof. My guess is the US Embassy in Thailand would accept the most legitimate claim they receive. I doubt that there would be many next of kin squabbling over who gets the remains.

[Gaybutton]

I found the following article in the "Legal Matters" column of the August 16-31, 2008 edition of PATTAYA EXPAT Magazine, page 39:

_____

 

In Thailand Probate Court

 

Probate is the legal process of settling the estate of a deceased person, specifically resolving all claims and distributing the decedent's property under the valid will. Probate is a service that a Surrogate court provides to confirm the validity of a deceased person's will. Once a will has been probated by the court, everyone can rely on its authenticity. Probate protects the instructions of the deceased, confirms the executor as the personal representative of the estate, protects the interests of family members who may have claims against the estate, and protects the executor against claims and law suits.

 

In Thailand, there are no probate or surrogate courts. If the deceased had previously drawn up a will before he died, his heirs who had been named in the will or the executor named in the will, must submit a petition to the court within the precinct where the deceased had lived before he died in order to seek for a court order to have power to carry out instructions according to the will. The court will either post or publish a notice to the public to allow other lawful heirs or other people who had interest in the estates to make objection. If no one objected, the court will set for preliminary hearing and see whether or not the will had been correctly done accordingly to the requirement of the law and make sure the executor is capable of carrying out the job as estates manager of the deceased. Upon the satisfaction of the court, the court will issue an order appointing the executor as the manager of the estates of the deceased. You will need to have a lawyer to perform this task for you as this task may take up to 2-3 months.

 

Petitioning for a court order to be the estates manager of the deceased mentioned herein represents the same objective as in a Probate Court. This is to make sure the will had been correctly done and the executor of the estates is capable and fully qualified to become the estates manager of the deceased. The court will not interfere the estates manager on how the estates to be divided. However, the lawful heirs may submit a petition to the court if the estates manager is carrying out his duty unlawfully or not dividing the estates according to the instruction given in the will.

 

If the deceased had not made any will before he died, his lawful heirs either his/her wife/ husband or parents or children may submit a petition to the court seeking for a court order to become the estates manager of the deceased. The court will set for preliminary hearings and if the court sees the petitioner is properly qualified to become the estates manager, the court will give an order of appointment accordingly. After having been appointed by the court, the estates manager shall carry out his duty as estate manager and divide the deceased's estates to his/her heirs according to the state of Law.

 

Thai Legal and Associates

http://www.thailegal.co.th

E-mail: s_kamnod@hotmail.com

[Guest laurence]

"I'm having difficulty making sense out of this. The part that's on my "I Don't Get It" list is the fact that it seems like no matter what you do, your next of kin makes the ultimate decisions. Why? Why can't your own will and/or specified wishes take precedence over leaving the decision-making up to your next of kin? "

 

I did read the US Embassy procedures regarding notifying the next-of-kin and reviewed the form they require, Affidavit of Next-of-Kin. The Affidavit makes little sense! It states that the deceased died "intestate", meaning without a Will and the deceased's Estate is to go to the next of kin! It would seem, to me, to suggest that, if the deceased had a Will, then that would take precedence. Can anyone make sense of this?

 

Oh, another lawyer in Pattaya for Wills is Mr.Visan Voradilok, at The Attorney's House, 159/105 M.5 North Pattaya Road. This location is just a few blocks from law office recommended by GB near Balcony Restaurant/Tesco Lotus.

(038) 410241 Office and (081) 3442109 Mobile. Preparation of a Will in English/Thai is about 4,000 Baht

[Guest Geezer]

“The Affidavit makes little sense! It states that the deceased died "intestate", meaning without a Will and the deceased's Estate is to go to the next of kin!”

 

I was concerned about that also -- until I realized “intestate” is a legal term meaning “without testicles“.

 

I have decided the only thing to do is to reword the form to say what we want.

[Gaybutton]

I realized “intestate” is a legal term meaning “without testicles“.

 

Strange. I thought "intestate" meant major highways that go through several states in the USA, such as Intestate 10, Intestate 95, and so on . . . . . .