Thailand Coup

[Guest Paragon]

Well, I guess I should just concede that MsGuy is an expert on Thailand. It hasn't been apparent until now, but he must have been in school taking Thai studies because he has all the answers. Maybe we should just send him there.

No, can't do that. Oz is already there!

[TotallyOz]

I am here and not an expert either. But, where did you get your data that all the professors were in line with the yellow shirts?

I am curious as I talked to a few today (teachers at local universities) and they are not all for the yellow shirts. There were 4 of them and 3 were for the Red Shirts but they said they would not be open about this to Thais as they fear arrest. They said they know other teachers who have been taken into custody for supporting the red shirts publicly. I have tried to find info about this but have not found this yet.

However, if that is the case, I think I'd be quiet also.

[Guest Paragon]

This is what I said: "Why is it that university professors overwhelmingly support the yellow shirts?"

This is what Oz says i said: "where did you get your data that all the professors were in line with the yellow shirts?"

[Guest Paragon]

Lest anyone think I am ignoring the arguments against the yellow shirts, here is something for MsGuy to salivate over:

http://journal.vpweb.com/upload/5ungpakorn.pdf

[MsGuy]

From Paragon's article:

"The elites have for decades ruled Thailand from behind

the scenes as if it were their own personal fiefdom. A

poisonous patron client network draws in new recruits to

this “elite feeding trough”, where fortunes are to

be made..."

I call it 'crony capitalism', they call it 'a poisonous patron client network'. Different name. same thing.

====

Paragon, the authors of your article are imposing a Marxist (or 'structuralist', diff name, same thing) analysis on a society that probably will not support it w/o considerable distortion of Thai realities. Or so it seems to me but then I've not had the pleasure of spending several months offing rentboys personally experiencing the wonders of Thailand, so what do I know?

All I've been trying to do here is get you to see that (1) the folks behind this coup are extremely nasty fellows even though they may seem quite pleasant and congenial to a Western tourist at a dinner party; (2) This isn't really about Thaksin, it's about whether or not the poor and the rural North and East will share in the benefits from the development of Thailand. Thaksin and his bunch are just opportunistic pols who have latched onto a general dissatisfaction with the antics of the Bangkok elite.

The Yellow Shirts could have undercut the Red Shirts after the last coup, if they had so wished...all they had to do was build some clinics, schools and roads. But they didn't. They can't. It's not in their nature. Sooner wait for the leopard to change his spots and go Vegan.

What set me off was when you opined that you supported the coup and favored rule by the educated better class of folks. I've lived under the rule of the best and the brightest here in Mississippi most of my life and, however nice and pleasant they may be as individuals, their collective sense of entitlement and the public policies they get up too are sickening. So curse Thaksin if you will but don't deceive yourself about the nature of the folks you say you support.

[Guest Paragon]

Well, MsGuy, if it is a matter of choosing sides, then I have chosen from the currently available sides, yes. As far as me going to Thailand to off rentboys, something you were so cute about, speak not of which you know nothing.

Now why is it that you and Oz are feeling so weak in your arguments that you change the facts? Oz misquoted me in an attempt to weaken my argument. Then I hand fed you an article supporting much of what you say, but it wasn't enough. The article was by one person, yet you refer to the author in the plural, I guess to give it more weight.

I do support rule by the more educated group, and I wouldn't compare them to the yahoos in Mississippi. In my view, the less educated will be getting an education and enhancing their standing in life; the poor will benefit from their new found politicalization to gain more rights and greater participation in the government. That's not just my goal, it is one shared by many "elite" Thais who want to see their country prosper and their children grow up in a peaceful country. They see sharing as something that benefits everyone. Will they prevail? Perhaps not, but that doesn't stop me from supporting the goal. And I am not handing that goal over to people who have yet to learn how to conduct a functioning government. But I'll be glad to have them at the table.

[TotallyOz]

I was not trying to misquote you. I was asking a question. Where did you get the information that the majority of professions were for the yellow shirts. You said that in on statement. I asked for clarification as I have not seen that.

So, as opposed to trying to say I misquoted you by saying all as opposed to what you said, Overwhelming Majority, I'll ask again, where did you see this? Again, I am not trying to trap you or anything else. I am only asking for where your information came from.

[Guest Paragon]

Well, for one, it's mentioned in the article that I cited for MsGuy. But mainly it's my perception in reading over the course of the past few years. Professors and university students were among the most anti-Thaksin group, and it's only logical that they would not identify with the less educated, and the uneducated. Can you show the opposite? Can you cite any segment of professors supporting the red shirts?

This situation is similar to the Israeli conflict with the Palestinians in that intransigence is preventing forward movement of peace talks. The general leading the coup put the contending parties in a room and tried to get them to put forward their positions on compromise. The coup only followed when they indicated that they would not compromise. Someone had to break the stalemate.

So it's hoped that over time, and a rather short time, people will see that the future of their country is at stake, and may fail if they don't move toward compromise. Positions have to soften, and reasonable efforts toward compromise have to be given breath. But if we can't even agree here, then how can we expect the opposing sides who actually live the conflict to agree? The King's death will probably be the point where it will be too late to make peace.

[TotallyOz]

Here is an interesting article from the New York Times that talks about the "red shirt" professors being summoned.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/25/world/asia/us-to-halt-military-exercises-with-thai-forces-as-junta-detentions-continue.html?_r=0

[boiworship]

Better analysis than one would ever find in the MSM.

[Guest Paragon]

The NY Times Editorial board today publishes troubling information about the Thailand coup:

After taking power in a coup last week, Thailand’s top army general said the military would establish a “genuine democracy” in the country. But in practice, the military is operating an increasingly authoritarian government intent on silencing all forms of dissent or disobedience.

Since taking over, the army has detained more than 250 people, including politicians, journalists, academics and activists. Some have been released in recent days but only on the condition that they not speak to the public or criticize the military. Foreign news channels like CNN and the BBC have been ordered off the air and local networks have been heavily censored. The generals have also given themselves the power to prosecute civilians in military courts without providing them with lawyers or the right to appeal, according to Human Rights Watch. On Thursday, the army banned all protests against the coup and sent more than 1,000 soldiers to seal a normally bustling intersection in the capital Bangkok.

By taking these heavy-handed actions, the military risks escalating conflict and weakening the struggling Thai economy. That is the last thing the country needs given that it has just been through six months of public protests by anti- and pro-government groups that are divided by region and class. If Gen. Prayuth Chan-ocha, the army chief, wants to lead the country out of its political crisis, as he claims, he should provide a plan for a return to civilian rule, including setting a date for an election.

The Thai generals falsely describe the military as a stabilizing force able to restore peace and order. After the army’s last coup in 2006, for example, it drafted a constitution and handed power to a new government that was soon beset by civic unrest. The army was then called in and ended up killing about 90 protesters.

The Obama administration has rightly criticized the coup and suspended unspent military aid to Thailand. Because Thailand is a treaty ally of the United States, American officials have ties to the army, which they should use to persuade the generals to restore democracy.

[Guest Paragon]

Golly gee, I was hoping that a strong leader had taken the reins in Thailand to bring the opposing sides together and make some order out of chaos, but it is appearing that the wrong guy is leading the coup:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/30/opinion/thailands-army-tears-up-the-script.html

But, try one of the comments in response to the above article:

Harsh Bangkok, Thailand 7 hours ago

This is a ridiculously limited and stereotypical assessment... same old boring elite class versus poor farmers etc... the catch phrases like 'coup', 'junta', 'democracy' etc. paint a tunnel perspective... the larger truth is that Thaksin and his circle of influence (mainly his family) have been a disastrous substitute to the pre Thaksin arrangements in Thailand. Mr. Thaksin brought a tumult of mega corruption, removal of checks and balances, unlimited power and plunder...not to mention gross violation of human rights and freedom of expression... Thaksin's governance style was typified by systematic removal of dissent and challenges to his sphere of power. He figured out how to win elections by bribing the poor and announce populist policies using the state coffers to rack up the numbers then set up a system of parliamentary dictatorship under the guise of democracy... then set about to rob the national treasury... it is sadly ironic that a dictator like Thaksin hides behind the charade of 'democracy' and plays victim while in reality victimizing the nation.
This article is very short on comprehensive content and analysis and harps on outmoded and off the mark opinion.

[TotallyOz]

This is a great read:

http://www.afr.com/p/world/thailand_secret_story_the_battle_QcvSA6u4clBHmLTFPLFQNJ

[MsGuy]

You know England once had a similar situation. Back in the day, those on the outs with the ruling faction in London often rallied to the court of the Prince of Wales in hope of future preferment.

I've read that the King is trying to insure the succession of his son, not least by giving his son personal control of an infantry battalion independent of the regular Army chain of command and that the Prince has concentrated recruitment mainly from the North and East, the Yellow Shirt heartland. Also read that the old royalist establishment is trying to weasel the succession of the Prince's more controllable sister. I have no doubt there's more going on behind the scenes than we hear about on the evening news.

(Sorry, can't find the articles about the succession for a link; should have done this post while I had them in front of me. My bad. )

(P.S. If the source article turns out to be on of Paragon's linked articles, I will put a bag over my head and not come out for a week. That would be just too damned embarrassing. )

[RA1]

Wow. If you can hold your breath for a week you probably could give Mark Phelps a run (swim) for his money.

Best regards,

RA1

[MsGuy]

LOL, I was thinking more of something like a brown paper bag than one of those plastic things...

But not to worry, RA1, I can always cut out a hole for my oxy tube before I slip it on.

[RA1]

I had confidence that you would find a way, MsGuy. That other bag is impressive also.

Best regards,

RA1

[KYTOP]

It has been interesting to read one's opinions on the political situation that continues to repeat itself in Thailand. I have also followed this very closely in European and American media. The AP and BBC have actually had some fairly good coverage with a bit of Historical and Editorial content thrown into their reporting.

From my observations, the majority of Thai's are poor and live in the rural areas. In any fair election their votes will continue to dominate, much to the displeasure of the minority but powerful elites in Bangkok. These elites will never allow the majority votes to put in place a Government they will agree with. Therefore the powerful elites, that includes Thailand's Judges, will always create anarchy until the Democratically elected Government is thrown out. Either by Judicial Rulings, Political unrest, or as always appears the end result...Military Coup.