Traveling to the USA with a Laptop? You Better Read This

[Guest fountainhall]

May I remind you that it was you who started this debate by bemoaning the loss of civil liberties in the USA

 

Wrong! GB started the thread and my first comment was to agree with a couple of subsequent posts.

 

Maybe it's because what remains of the few Communists governments in the world in China, Cuba and a few other horrors shows in North Kores and Laos, show absolutely no respect for individual freedoms.

 

Labelling Cuba, China and Laos as "horrors" is utter nonsense, and comparing them to North Korea (which I agree is a "horror state") is not even worth commenting on. My turn to say "Get real!" Buaseng obviously got it right: "Another brainwashed Yank"!

 

I hope you aren't suggesting that not having your laptop seached in China or any of these other totalitarian regimes makes their people more free than America's.

 

Twisting what I said again. This thread is primarily about the threat new regulations pose to visitors to the USA (even though they also relate to US citizens). Sure, I added a comment about the feelings of friends in China and myself, but that had nothing to do with laptops not being searched.

 

I repeat what I said earlier. Go to China, spend several periods of several months there. I will then give your considered views some serious attention. Until then, I'll pass on your sloganeering.

 

 

[Guest Geezer]

“Labelling Cuba, China and Laos as "horrors" is utter nonsense…”

 

I would consider being forced to live one's entire life in a country with the human rights standards of China to be horrible. Apparently you would not. We must disagree on that.

 

 

“Buaseng obviously got it right: "Another brainwashed Yank"!”

 

Emotional hyperbole does not support your position. Facts are required for that.

 

 

“Go to China, spend several periods of several months there. I will then give your considered views some serious attention. “

 

I believe this is the third time you have proposed the idea that views of those spending less time in China than yourself, are therefore less valid -- a somewhat curious idea.

 

I lived for years in Colombia. Yet I suspect there may be those who, though spending less time than myself in the country, have a greater knowledge, and a more comprehensive view of that beleaguered nation.

 

Today is not the era of Marco Polo. It is not necessary to live in a country to know its' nature. There are many sources of information.

 

Despite the Chinese government’s frenzied efforts to suppress, and deny the horrors -- there’s that word again -- of Tibet and Tiananmen Square the world knows.

 

...

..

[Guest fountainhall]

Yes, I'd very happy to spend several more years in China - without being forced to do so. So we agree to disagree.

 

It is not necessary to visit a country to know about it.

 

With all respect, that is absolutely not true, unless you mean you can know just a tiny fraction about it. I reckon the opposite is true in most cases.

 

Despite the Chinese government

[Guest Geezer]

Geezer posted:

“It is not necessary to visit a country to know about it.”

 

fountainhall strongly disagreed:

“With all respect, that is absolutely not true…”

 

Geezer observes:

As fountainhall knows enough about North Korea to classify it as a "horror state…", it must be assumed he has visited North Korea as well as China. I envy him. I would very much like to visit that country. I am a steam railroad fan, and I believe they still operate steam.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest buaseng]

Geezer observes:

I am a steam railroad fan, and I believe they still operate steam.

Would that be the reason for the large amount of hot air you spout?

[Guest fountainhall]

I am a steam railroad fan

 

Sorry, Geezer. My informants tell me the last steam train in North Korea was recently scrapped. Perhaps they've gone nuclear.

 

Not to worry, tho'. Why not give China a try? It still has a few impressive steam railroads. Whilst there, check out the world's first Maglev train which whisks you from Shanghai's Pudong airport to the city at 420 kph (sorry, that's 260 mph for American readers)!

[Guest Hedda]

Not to worry, tho'. Why not give China a try? It still has a few impressive steam railroads. Whilst there, check out the world's first Maglev train which whisks you from Shanghai's Pudong airport to the city at 420 kph (sorry, that's 260 mph for American readers)!

As I recall, Benito Mussoulini's one lasting claim to fame was that he got the Italian trains to run on time. You seem to be similarly impressed with China's industrial progress, as if prosperity is the acceptable price for surrendering your civil liberties.

 

In many respects, you remind me of the fascist apologists in the US and Europe before WWII, who were so quick to praise Hitler and his Nazis for working that economic miracle in Germany. People like the Duke of Windsor, Henry Ford and Charles Lindberg, who would tour Germany in the 1930's and come back with glowing reports on economic progress there, with little mention of the dark ages that were descending on German politics and political freedom.

 

The Olympics of 1936 were supposed to showcase to the world the miracle of Germany under National Socialism, much the same way that China has sought to use the Olympics of 2008 as its entree to world respectability. It all sounds and looks good, especially with all those lavish facilites beamed around the world on a 50 inch LCD, but China today is one of the most brutally repressive countries on the planet, just as Hitler's Germany was 75 years ago.

 

One can hope, of course, that the abandonment of marxist economics that is taking place in today's China will be followed by steps toward political pluralism. At present, however, your attempts to equate the political rights enjoyed in the USA to China seem as naive and misguided as were those of the Nazi apologists in the 1930's.

[Guest fountainhall]

As I recall, Benito Mussoulini's one lasting claim to fame was that he got the Italian trains to run on time.

 

. . . decades after the Indian rail system ran like clockwork. Oops - I have opened the door to colonial domination and America's land grab in China and other countries (to be sure, in the company of many other western powers).

 

People like the Duke of Windsor, Henry Ford and Charles Lindberg, who would tour Germany in the 1930's and come back with glowing reports on economic progress there, with little mention of the dark ages that were descending on German politics and political freedom.

 

Wrong again! The people you list were on short trips carefully orchestrated for maximum effect. Do I need to emphasize again that I have spent a great deal of time in China over 30 years. and must have met many thousands of people, Chinese and foreigners, with no vetting whatever (except, I admit, at one official function in 1986). Next you will no doubt suggest I am being paid by the Chinese government to post propaganda for a few readers on this Board! Get real!

 

China today is one of the most brutally repressive countries on the planet, just as Hitler's Germany was 75 years ago.

.

 

What absolute rubbish! But I doubt if anyone will change your completely biased, hackneyed and doctrinaire views.

 

One can hope, of course, that the abandonment of marxist economics that is taking place in today's China will be followed by steps toward political pluralism

 

Which century are you living in, Hedda? China is one of the most capitalist countries on the planet. Marxism went out the window when Deng Xiao-ping came to power.

 

I guess this thread is going to become like a game of ping-pong. Maybe time to pull the plug, GB, as I certainly won't let up in the face of such inane comments.

[atri1666]

To read Heddas shit helps me to loose weight. Can not stop vomit or better can not eat as much as i must vomit. From which planet is he(she) coming?

[Gaybutton]

Maybe time to pull the plug, GB

 

Despite the fact that this thread started out as a warning about carrying laptops to the USA, and now has turned into a debate about whether or not China is a repressive government, I see no reason to lock this thread just yet.

 

One note, however . . . please debate the issue. Let's not get start up the personal insults and pissing contests, ok? Atri1666, I'll leave your post in place, but any further posts that start getting into personal insults are going to go bye-bye.

[Guest Hedda]

Atri1666, I'll leave your post in place, but any further posts that start getting into personal insults are going to go bye-bye.

Sorry to disagree, GB, but think the best thing a moderator can do in this situation is to stand back and let us get a better insight into the mentality of a poster who seems to think that vulgarity is a substitute for rational analysis.

 

I have no idea who Atri1666 is in real life, nor do I much care, but, based on his latest post, I think I have a pretty good idea of what kind of person he is. It would be a shame to hide that from the board by "pulling the plug" as suggested above.

[Guest lester1]

What hasnt been mentioned by Hedda, who at least has the sense to realise that there is a lot that about modern China that is wrong is that its recent foray into being in the top five industrialised states is built upon sand. For instance, massive pollution of the environment, feudal conditions for its workforce, running roughshod over product safety rules, and the start, especially in Africa, of an almost 18th century Empire Building plan.

Now of course, all this has been mirrored in the past past by all the world's major players. Its just that now we are supposed to know better.

I suspect that even though you dont have to search for reasons to be critical of China, there is a vested interest in the west to sow seeds everywhere to undermine their progress. All are worried about their ability to produce cheap goods, suck up energy and resources from all over the world, and grow into the worlds number 1 industrailised state. God help us all if they decide to get beligerent internationally. So when western organisations bang on about human rights and pollution and oppressive regimes, underneath all this is the hope that China can be derailed economically.

[Gaybutton]

Sorry to disagree, GB, but think the best thing a moderator can do in this situation is to stand back and let us get a better insight into the mentality of a poster who seems to think that vulgarity is a substitute for rational analysis.

 

Yes, that is my intent. As I said, there is no problem debating the issue, but I am hoping to avoid a new insult and put-down contest rearing up on this board. I don't think we'll have to worry about that again. This particular debate is giving me a lot to think about . . . on both sides. Let's hope people who wish to continue the debate will do so intelligently and non-maliciously.

[Guest fountainhall]

All are worried about their ability to produce cheap goods, suck up energy and resources from all over the world, and grow into the worlds number 1 industrailised state.

 

I am sure this is largely true. China depends on its economy expanding on an annual basis. That way, the government can at least keep the country together. I recall a time in the early 1990's when there was serious comment that Guangdong Province (the one in the south around Hong Kong) might try and secede because it was economically so far more advanced than the rest of the country. How this was squashed, I have no idea, but it illustrates the point that the China leadership's No. 1 priority is stability. Just think of the horrors the country went through from the time the rotting Manchu Empire started to collapse internally at the end of the 18th century, through its rape by colonial powers in the 19th, right up to the Gang of Four and the Cultural Revolution in the 1960's. Most Chinese I speak to are hugely thankful that there has been peace and prosperity now for more than 30 years. Many are old enough to remember the total chaos of the Cultural Revolution. None want that ever to happen again.

 

God help us all if they decide to get beligerent internationally

 

Agreed. But if history is any example, China has never been an expansionist power, unlike western and Japanese colonialists. Most commentators I have read believe this is extremely unlikely to happen, no matter how rich and powerful it becomes.

[Guest fountainhall]

the best thing a moderator can do in this situation is to stand back and let us get a better insight into the mentality of a poster who seems to think that vulgarity is a substitute for rational analysis.

 

I note Hedda's comment on Atri1666's post (above). I quite agree, but they do make me wonder what Hedda's ideas of "rational analysis" really are. Here are some Heddaisms from this post -

 

On the new US entry regulations and invasion of individual liberties -

 

"My guess is that Americans have lost fewer freedom in George Bush's recent tinkering with homeland security, than the Chinese have enjoyed in their entire history, including the post-Mao period . . . ""

 

On China's desire for money and foreign exchange (China having vast foreign exchange reserves of over US$1 trillion) -

 

"The authorities want the money and foreign exchange that tourism brings and they aren't about to do anything to jeopardize it . . . "

 

On why Americans are so gung-ho on communism -

 

"Maybe it's because what remains of the few Communists governments in the world in China, Cuba and a few other horrors shows in North Kores and Laos, show absolutely no respect for individual freedoms . . . "

 

On my overall comments on China -

 

"In many respects, you remind me of the fascist apologists in the US and Europe before WWII, who were so quick to praise Hitler and his Nazis for working that economic miracle in Germany . . . "

 

On China hosting the Olympics -

 

"China today is one of the most brutally repressive countries on the planet, just as Hitler's Germany was 75 years ago . . ."

 

Rational analysis? Interesting!

[Guest fountainhall]

US Announces New Requirements for Visa Waiver Countries

 

Getting back to the main topic of this thread - and purely for information - I just noticed on the British Airways website that the US Homeland Security Dept. is revising the Visa Waiver programme under which citizens of 27 countries can enter the US visa free. The new programme is called "Travel Authorisation". In addition to completing the Green Form on the aircraft, this will have to be done electronically and submitted a minimum of 72 hours prior to departure. Failure to do so will result in boarding being denied.

 

This compulsory programme will come into service in "early 2009" but visitors are recommended to "apply voluntarily from the beginning of August 2008 . . . to familiarise yourself with the new system."

 

In most cases, they say, an authorisation code will be provided in seconds. Mine certainly came up very quickly, (yes, they let me in!).