Traveling to the USA with a Laptop? You Better Read This

[Gaybutton]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...isrc=newsletter

 

Travelers' Laptops May Be Detained At Border

 

No Suspicion Required Under DHS Policies

 

By Ellen Nakashima

Washington Post Staff Writer

Friday, August 1, 2008; Page A01

 

Federal agents may take a traveler's laptop computer or other electronic device to an off-site location for an unspecified period of time without any suspicion of wrongdoing, as part of border search policies the Department of Homeland Security recently disclosed.

 

Also, officials may share copies of the laptop's contents with other agencies and private entities for language translation, data decryption or other reasons, according to the policies, dated July 16 and issued by two DHS agencies, U.S. Customs and Border Protection and U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

 

"The policies . . . are truly alarming," said Sen. Russell Feingold (D-Wis.), who is probing the government's border search practices. He said he intends to introduce legislation soon that would require reasonable suspicion for border searches, as well as prohibit profiling on race, religion or national origin.

 

DHS officials said the newly disclosed policies -- which apply to anyone entering the country, including U.S. citizens -- are reasonable and necessary to prevent terrorism. Officials said such procedures have long been in place but were disclosed last month because of public interest in the matter.

 

Civil liberties and business travel groups have pressed the government to disclose its procedures as an increasing number of international travelers have reported that their laptops, cellphones and other digital devices had been taken -- for months, in at least one case -- and their contents examined.

 

The policies state that officers may "detain" laptops "for a reasonable period of time" to "review and analyze information." This may take place "absent individualized suspicion."

 

The policies cover "any device capable of storing information in digital or analog form," including hard drives, flash drives, cellphones, iPods, pagers, beepers, and video and audio tapes. They also cover "all papers and other written documentation," including books, pamphlets and "written materials commonly referred to as 'pocket trash' or 'pocket litter.' "

 

Reasonable measures must be taken to protect business information and attorney-client privileged material, the policies say, but there is no specific mention of the handling of personal data such as medical and financial records.

 

When a review is completed and no probable cause exists to keep the information, any copies of the data must be destroyed. Copies sent to non-federal entities must be returned to DHS. But the documents specify that there is no limitation on authorities keeping written notes or reports about the materials.

 

"They're saying they can rifle through all the information in a traveler's laptop without having a smidgen of evidence that the traveler is breaking the law," said Greg Nojeim, senior counsel at the Center for Democracy and Technology. Notably, he said, the policies "don't establish any criteria for whose computer can be searched."

 

Customs Deputy Commissioner Jayson P. Ahern said the efforts "do not infringe on Americans' privacy." In a statement submitted to Feingold for a June hearing on the issue, he noted that the executive branch has long had "plenary authority to conduct routine searches and seizures at the border without probable cause or a warrant" to prevent drugs and other contraband from entering the country.

 

Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff wrote in an opinion piece published last month in USA Today that "the most dangerous contraband is often contained in laptop computers or other electronic devices." Searches have uncovered "violent jihadist materials" as well as images of child pornography, he wrote.

 

With about 400 million travelers entering the country each year, "as a practical matter, travelers only go to secondary [for a more thorough examination] when there is some level of suspicion," Chertoff wrote. "Yet legislation locking in a particular standard for searches would have a dangerous, chilling effect as officers' often split-second assessments are second-guessed."

 

In April, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit in San Francisco upheld the government's power to conduct searches of an international traveler's laptop without suspicion of wrongdoing. The Customs policy can be viewed at:

 

http://www.cbp.gov/linkhandler/cgov/travel...h_authority.pdf.

[atri1666]

USA is one of the 3 countries i never travel - i can not bear so much "freedom".

[Gaybutton]

USA is one of the 3 countries i never travel - i can not bear so much "freedom".

 

"I love America. I love the freedom we used to have." - George Carlin

[Guest fountainhall]

USA is one of the 3 countries i never travel

 

If it were not for business and friends, I certainly would stay away as long as this ridiculous police state mentality exists. "Land of the free" is now sadly a joke. The continuiing creeping invasions of individual liberties belie the arrogance and hypocracy of US officlals' cries for freedom and democracy around the world. On my regular visits to China, I - and my Chinese friends who live there - feel a greater sense of freedom than in the US.

[Guest Hedda]

The continuing creeping invasions of individual liberties belie the arrogance and hypocracy of US officlals' cries for freedom and democracy around the world. On my regular visits to China, I - and my Chinese friends who live there - feel a greater sense of freedom than in the US.

 

Sorry, dear, but that kind of comment gets you the prize for the "Hyperbole Award" of the year. The fact that you seem to think you enjoy a greater sense of freedom in China than the USA suggests a possible inner ear infection that affects your balance.

 

The idea that the constitutional rights afforded to Americans provides less freedom than those tolerated by the unelected communist dictatorship in China is patently absurd. My guess is that Americans have lost fewer freedom in George Bush's recent tinkering with "homeland security," than the Chinese have enjoyed in their entire history, including the post-Mao period.

 

China is a police state and a thoroughly corrupt one, by their own admissions at the last Party Congress, where there are no free elections, no opposition parties, and where press speech exists only if you do not criticize the government.

 

There is no independent judiciary to protect civil rights because the courts are organs of the ruling Communist Party. Secret trials routinely deprive people of their liberty on a scale that makes the eyesore we call Guantanamo look exemplary. How anyone with half an ounce of common sense could compare the current Chinese dictatorship to the full array of constitutional protections enjoyed in America is astounding.

[Guest buaseng]

... to the full array of constitutional protections enjoyed in America is astounding.

Another brainwashed Yank!

 

Those constitutional protections are as worthless as the paper they are written on and go out of the window when the Patriot Act is applied or when bureaucratic abuses like the laptop searches occur in the name of Homeland Security or the War on Terrorism.

[Guest Hedda]

Another brainwashed Yank . . .Those constitutional protections are as worthless as the paper they are written on and go out of the window when the Patriot Act is applied...

 

Care to give an example of that outside Guantanamo ?

 

The last time I looked the Constitution and Bill of Rights were doing just fine, with a strong and independent judiciary committed to their enforcement. The fact that some President has tried to cut corners on the Bill of Rights for his own political reasons hardly matters in the overall historical scheme of things, especially when the courts keep slapping him down when they have the chance.

 

You seem to suggest that the policy of searching people and their belongings at ports of entry is some basic violation of human rights, but it happens to be a practice which virtually every government in the world reserves the right to do without qualification. Just whose or what standard are you applying here ?

 

May I suggest that if anyone has been brainwashed here, it's folks like you who feel compelled to trash as worthless those Yanks' remarkable achievement in establishing the rule of law through a written Constitution that's now endured for over two centuries. The fact that you choose to find that achievement worthless probably tell us far more about you than America or its vibrant constitution.

[Guest Geezer]

“Another brainwashed Yank!”

 

This heading is an indication the post is driven by emotionally inspired prejudice rather than reason. Attempting to have a dialog with a person in such a state is a waste of time.

[Guest mauRICE]

Sorry, dear, but that kind of comment gets you the prize for the "Hyperbole Award" of the year. The fact that you seem to think you enjoy a greater sense of freedom in China than the USA suggests a possible inner ear infection that affects your balance.

 

And that's worthy of a Hedda Zing Award on a lazy Sunday afternoon.

 

I think some people are confusing the flash commercialism and wannabe capitalism of the urban Chinese with freedoms and progressive attitudes towards human rights. Not to worry. They are equally, if not more confused themselves. A Gucci handbag gives them no more freedom than the crocodile that had to lose his in the making of it.

[Bob]

Hyperbole run amok....

 

The constitutional rights and protections given to the misdemeanor defendants tomorrow morning in my backward, dinky, US city exceed all the rights "enjoyed" by the Chinese people.

 

The US has it's issues but to suggest in any manner that the freedoms (e.g., to say what we want, to print what we want, to have the right to not incriminate ourselves, the right to not have our homes searched without the judicial issuance of a search warrant upon a showing of probably cause, etc., etc., etc., etc.......) we enjoy are not expansive is simply inaccurate.

[Guest fountainhall]

May I suggest that if anyone has been brainwashed here, it's folks like you who feel compelled to trash as worthless those Yanks' remarkable achievement in establishing the rule of law through a written Constitution that's now endured for over two centuries.

 

I was pretty sure this would bring Hedda back in to the room! I often wonder why Americans feel it is so necessary to have a written constitution. The oldest democracy in the world, the United Kingdom, has never had a written constitution! And I believe most UK citizens enjoy as many, if not more, freedoms than most Americans.

 

However, I've made my point and I stick to it. I also wonder just how much time Hedda, Bob and those who criticise China have spent in the country, and how many discussions they have had with those who actually live there. Perhaps you could enlighten us all. Have you really any idea what life is truly like - as opposed to what you hear from a few politicians and media with their own agendas? No, I don't mean life for those who fall foul of the law, nor for the corrupt officials and businessmen, of which there are obviously more than a few. But then the USA, the UK and other democracies have their fair share. (Did I hear anyone mention that bastion of democracy and corruption, the Philippines, an ex-US colony that has for decades seen more of its population degraded by poverty than almost any other in Asia?) No, I mean llfe for average citizens - perhaps some of the hundred of millions who have been dragged out of poverty in the shortest time in history.

 

Of my dozens of visits over 3 decades, I remember spending several weeks in Beijing in 1997. One evening I talked to some students in a gay bar (yes, there were gay bars then - now there are many). Every single one expressed admiration for the USA. But all were offended by America's attitude to their country and could not understand why Amercans were always publicly so negative in their criticism. And before anyone jumps in - no, they had not been brainwashed.

 

The constitutional rights and protections given to the misdemeanor defendants tomorrow morning in my backward, dinky, US city exceed all the rights "enjoyed" by the Chinese people.

 

Oh please! So, who's been brainwashed? Sure, the USA has much to be proud of. But so has China. Spend a few months there and then perhaps you can make more reasoned comments.

[Guest Geezer]

“I often wonder why Americans feel it is so necessary to have a written constitution.”

King George was of the same opinion. Will taxation without representation do for starters?

 

 

“(Did I hear anyone mention that bastion of democracy and corruption, the Philippines, an ex-US colony that has for decades seen more of its population degraded by poverty than almost any other in Asia?)”

I always wondered why the Philippines is in such a deplorable condition. Now I understand who bears responsibility for the difficulties in Zimbabwe and Burma.

 

 

“Spend a few months there and then perhaps you can make more reasoned comments.”

Thank you for the instruction on making reasoned comments.

 

 

“Sure, the USA has much to be proud of. But so has China.”

With whom are you debating? No one in this thread has said otherwise.

[Guest fountainhall]

“Sure, the USA has much to be proud of. But so has China.” With whom are you debating? No one in this thread has said otherwise.

 

I love your simple logic, Geezer! But the last comment defeats me. You have obviously been reading a different thread that I missed.

[Guest Geezer]

Did I make a mistake? I frequently do. If so, please do correct me.

 

I have copied and pasted the last two lines of Fountainhall’s post # 11

 

“Oh please! So, who's been brainwashed? Sure, the USA has much to be proud of. But so has China. Spend a few months there and then perhaps you can make more reasoned comments.”

[Bob]

Every single one expressed admiration for the USA. But all were offended by America's attitude to their country and could not understand why Amercans were always publicly so negative in their criticism. And before anyone jumps in - no, they had not been brainwashed.

 

Compared to long ago, China has made extraordinary strides, at least economically for some citizens (percentage-wise, it's a large number).

 

"All were offended by America's attitude to their country"......"could not understand why Americans were always publicly so negative"....."no, they had not been brainwashed."

 

Huh? I think your comments underscore your problem. Neither the average American nor the American government is at all negative about the Chinese people so I'm not sure where you/they got that idea. Have there been US governmental criticisms of some of the human rights issues in China (which would seem to imply we care about Chinese citizens, wouldn't it?)? Sure, and rightfully so. As for brainwashing, I suppose it's how you define it. Not allowing your citizens access to adequate information, I suppose, leaves one with the inability to know or compare (North Korea, of course, would be the worst example there). When/if China has freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, and even a rudimentary form of democracy (the ability to have something to do with electing one's governmental leaders), perhaps then the 5-6 million elitists who run the place will be sent packing.

[Guest fountainhall]

Compared to long ago, China has made extraordinary strides, at least economically for some citizens (percentage-wise, it's a large number).

 

That's the first time I've heard "hundreds of millions" described as "some citizens". Since China has so many people (more than 4 times as many as the US), in percentage terms it is actually not as large as it sounds. But basically we agree.

 

Neither the average American nor the American government is at all negative about the Chinese people

 

What I wrote was the students " could not understand why Amercans were always publicly so negative in their criticism." So I was referring to those in Congress, some in the media and those with access to the media who were then (in 1997) quite strident in their public positions on China. I accept the average American is probably quite pleased that China is sending over so many relatively inexpensive consumer goods, but is the government as delighted that China owns a such a huge chunk of the USA's massive overseas debt?

 

Not allowing your citizens access to adequate information, I suppose, leaves one with the inability to know or compare (North Korea, of course, would be the worst example there)

 

Once again, this view is not based on actual experience. The internet is all over China - now more users than in the USA. Some sites are blocked, it is true. But as we all know - and certainly vast numbers of Chinese increasingly know (as was reported on CNN just last night), there are several ways around official blocking. And since you raised the issue of censorship, how come there is more censorship and blocking of gay websites here in Thailand than there is in China?

 

This thread started out with a little bit of US bashing resulting from US customs having increased powers. I widened the discussion by introducing China. I've made my points and will now withdraw so that other posters can concentrate on the main topic. But in closing, I repeat that my comments on China, seemingly unlike those of other posters, are all based on actual personal experience over 3 decades.

[Guest Geezer]

“And since you raised the issue of censorship, how come there is more censorship and blocking of gay websites here in Thailand than there is in China?”

 

Because there are no gays in China.

 

A government official was asked about the treatment of gays in China. He answered, “There are no gays in The People’s Republic of China -- they all went to Formosa.”

[Guest fountainhall]

Ha! He forgot to tell utopia.com which estimates around 65 million gays in the country - more than the entire population of Thailand!

[Guest GaySacGuy]

"I love America. I love the freedom we used to have." - George Carlin

 

I think that says it all. I won't argue about what China has or doen't have, but the individual freedoms taken away by George Bush, his VP, his crooked Justice Dept.(oxymoron), and big Oil are a definite attack on our constitution!!!

[2lz2p]

The original post had to do with USA customs and immigration officials looking at information on laptop computers. Then, it seems, the USA and China were being compared. As to the later issue dealing with freedoms, etc. -- A visit to Amnesty International web site will give you an abundance of information critical of the USA and China -- as well as other countries around the world. Now, back to the original issue -- Would China also deem your laptop fair game for examination when going through their Immigration and Customs clearance? I extracted the following from a website showing China's list of prohibited items (bringing into the country as well as when leaving):

 

Clearing the Customs

For your convenience on your journey in China, the following is a brief introduction to relevant customs stipulations . . .

 

3. Articles Not Allowed into or out of China

 

Articles Not Allowed to Enter China

 

1. Weapons, imitation weapons, ammunitions, and explosives;

2. Forged currencies and negotiable securities;

3. Printed matters, films, photographs, gramophone records, movies, recording tapes, videotapes, VCDs,

computer storage media

and other articles

whose contents are detrimental to Chinese politics, economy, culture and morality;

4. Various poisons;

5. Opium, morphine, heroin, marijuana and other addictive drugs;

6. Animals, plants or other products which may carry dangerous diseases, viruses, parasites, etc.

7. Foodstuff, medicines, or other products deemed to be harmful to humans or animals, those from areas with epidemics, or those which may spread diseases.

 

Articles Not Allowed to Leave China

 

1. All the articles not allowed into China;

2. Manuscripts, printed matters, films, photographs, gramophone records, movies, recording tapes, videotapes, VCDs,

computer storage media

and other articles

whose contents are involved with state secrets;

3. Valuable cultural relics and other cultural relics not allowed to leave China by law;

4. Endangered and valuable species of animals, plants (including samples), as well as their seeds and breeding materials.

 

 

[Guest fountainhall]

Would China also deem your laptop fair game for examination when going through their Immigration and Customs clearance?

 

I know I said I would leave this thread to others, but I cannot let this one pass.

 

Many countries have these sorts of prohibition - what about Singapore, which will see you summarily executed if you are caught bringing in even the tiniest amount of certain drugs? Since I started going to China in the late '70's, I have visited the USA, Britain and Japan roughly the same number of times. In both Britain and Japan, I have had all my baggage thoroughly searched on entry - even to the extent of the toothpaste cap being opened and the paste examined.

 

Some years ago in the US, as I posted on another thread, I had extreme security searches at several airports. On checking my boarding passes, I realised that each had stamped on them "SSS" in large letters. This I later discovered means Special Security Screening.

 

The former searches were simply a result of my having a large number of Thailand in/out stamps in my passort. So the officers were checking for drugs. The latter was a result of my ticket being issued in Thailand (true!) which, after 9/11, the US authorities for a while regarded as a risky terrorist country. Since then, I have ensured that the personal details which every traveller must now provide in advance of travel to the US (even if they are just overflying the country without any stop at all!) show my residence as my home country - and I have had zero problem.

 

And China? Never once in 30 years have I been stopped at any airport; never once have I been asked if I was carrying a laptop; never once have I seen anyone stopped on entry and a laptop opened. I am now more nervous entering the US with a laptop than I ever have been entering China. Why? Just remember the original post -

 

Federal agents may take a traveler's laptop computer or other electronic device to an off-site location for an unspecified period of time without any suspicion of wrongdoing, as part of border search policies the Department of Homeland Security recently disclosed.

 

Also, officials may share copies of the laptop's contents with other agencies and private entities for language translation, data decryption or other reasons, according to the policies, dated July 16 and issued by two DHS agencies, U.S. Customs and Border Protection and U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement . . . DHS officials said the newly disclosed policies -- which apply to anyone entering the country, including U.S. citizens -- are reasonable and necessary to prevent terrorism.

[Guest Hedda]

And China? Never once in 30 years have I been stopped at any airport; never once have I been asked if I was carrying a laptop; never once have I seen anyone stopped on entry and a laptop opened. I am now more nervous entering the US with a laptop than I ever have been entering China. Why?

 

Why? Well, I can assure you it's not because the Chinese Comunists are so devoted to individual civil rights that they would never think of searching anyone. More likely, it's the same reason I have never been searched landing in Bangkok, Nairobi, Bali or just about any third-world destination I can think of. The authorities want the money and foreign exchange that tourism brings and they aren't about to do anything to jeopardize it.

 

I've also never gotten a traffic ticket here, nor have I seen anyone eveyr stopped for a moving violation. I suppose that's because the authorities are devoted to preserving liberty on the highway. Get real. The fact that certain governments like the Chinese or Thais choose to forgo tighter security measures at airports is dictated by factors that have absolutely nothing to do with their concern for human rights.

 

 

[Guest fountainhall]

Get real. The fact that certain governments like the Chinese or Thais choose to forgo tighter security measures at airports is dictated by factors that have absolutely nothing to do with their concern for human rights.

 

You have a marvellous knack of twisting my comments. Did I mention anything about civil rights? No. Did I mention anything about the rather arbitrary way certain US/UK/Japanese customs officials search individuals on entry? Yes. I then commented that on many, many visits, I had never seen this happen in China. Period.

 

If you think the Chinese are so desperate for "the money and foreign exchange that tourism bring", then it's clear you have little personal knowledge of the country and less idea of where it stands economically in the world. If I'm wrong, I look forward to being enlightened. But please, don't trot out more assumptions or third party views.

 

Why is it that so many Americans (apologies, Hedda, if you are not American) get so hung up about 'communists'? It's as if they think nothing has changed since the end of the Cold War. Certainly the new regulations re entry to the US reinforce this view. Remember, these apply to Americans as well as foreigners - the enemy within as well as the enemy without.

[Guest GaySacGuy]

The original post had to do with USA customs and immigration officials looking at information on laptop Articles Not Allowed to Leave China

 

1. All the articles not allowed into China;

2. Manuscripts, printed matters, films, photographs, gramophone records, movies, recording tapes, videotapes, VCDs, computer storage media and other articles whose contents are involved with state secrets;

3. Valuable cultural relics and other cultural relics not allowed to leave China by law;

4. Endangered and valuable species of animals, plants (including samples), as well as their seeds and breeding materials. [/indent]

 

Well, it's a sure thing that the US has no control on what leaves the country. Since you have no custom controls to pass through leaving the US by air, (at least at LAX, SFO, and Phoenix) there is no way for them to know what you leave with...or who. No wonder the US has so many illegal aliens in the country. Even if they come in legally, there is no way for the US to know if they left!!! Same for cruise ships...some customs on entering the US, but none on leaving!!!

[Guest Hedda]

Why is it that so many Americans ... get so hung up about 'communists'?

 

Maybe it's because what remains of the few Communists governments in the world in China, Cuba and a few other horrors shows in North Kores and Laos, show absolutely no respect for individual freedoms.

 

May I remind you that it was you who started this debate by bemoaning the loss of civil liberties in the USA, which you equated with being searched at the airport. Has it occurred to you that most of the freedoms still enjoyed in America, including a free press, free speech and free political association are totally absent in all those communist systems ? I hope you aren't suggesting that not having your laptop seached in China or any of these other totalitarian regimes makes their people more free than America's.

 

Talk about getting hung up, dear, you really have a thing about airports.