CCTV in the bars

[TotallyOz]

The concept of having CCTV in go-go bars is more complex than a lot of guys are letting on. I don't think it's possible to take a perfect stand on the issue.

 

It goes without saying that lots of us would rather not be filmed cavorting with guys in their underwear. And, face it, while most bars won't do anything with the tapes, they'll always be one or two greedy bar owners who will try to use them to make money.

 

While I wouldn't be a good blackmail subject, I could think of some people who are prominent in either business or politics who would be put at risk by CCTV filming. Being totally openly gay and I’ve been told easily recognized as flamboyantly gay, I do not have the same worries that some that are closeted have. I know many men who are married and very happily married and have children and love their family and yet once or twice a year, they take a little gay holiday to Thailand or Brazil or West Hollywood or New York City or Montreal in order to live a different life than the one they have chosen. It is these few weeks that allow them to remain happy the rest of the year.

 

To be blunt, CCTV taping in boy bars is a questionable violation of civil liberties. I'm very uncomfortable with it and wish that the law wasn't in place. I am not sure where Thailand stands on civil liberties for its people but I am sure their definition and mine are different.

 

That said, civil liberties always have to be balanced against a reasonable need for public safety. The truth is that while most of us are just looking to have a gay old time, there are creeps out there. Anything that encourages dudes not to rough up or hurt the boys is a good thing. Anything that helps to keep the drugs out of the bars and away from the boys and the customers is a good thing and to have a camera there if a brutal attack takes place is a good thing as well. And, yes, I do think that it is inappropriate to jo a boy in a bar or have them jo a customer. There is a place for everything and the bar is not the place for it. I just hate to sit next to someone who gets their jollies out of fondling a boy for 45 min and then gives them a 20-bath tip. I am not sure which I am more distressed over to be honest but I prefer neither to take place.

 

The biggest risk all of us run is that all bars will garner a reputation as places to go when you want to fondle young boys as those are the tapes that will make it to the VCD show near you. The tapes for bars like BoyzBoyzBoyz with big muscle guys and partially straight audiences will not be the ones that are aired. It will be the very few bars that have the underage staff. If that starts to happen, then Thai officials might suddenly change their tolerant attitudes towards all go go bars and clubs. I hope this does not happen and that a few bad apples do not spoil the bunch.

 

As GayButton has pointed out here and on other forums, there has yet to be one instance on record where anyone has been blackmailed or had videos of themselves put on YouTube because of the cameras. Beyond that, when you are in the main room of a go go bar you are in a public space and don't have the same expectation of privacy as you would in your own hotel room.

 

Of course, if they were taping sexual activities in back rooms or private rooms at the bar that would be a different story altogether.

 

All of life is a compromise and I think the pros of the cameras slightly outweigh the civil liberties questions. Although, I would like to see some proof that the cameras inside the bars actually help reduce crime.

 

After all, if you really want to keep your sexuality private you can always arrange trysts with guys over the Internet and have them come directly to your hotel room. In that way only the boy will know what you're doing and there won’t be any footage.

 

Have any of you ever seen images from CCTV cameras? They are pretty awful in the best of circumstances; in a dark bar the odds of them generating blackmail-worthy photos are fairly low. But, the risk is still there.

 

As for me, I am OK with the cameras in the bars if they are used for the protection against crime elements. I do wonder how long it will take for these cameras to be used in a way that negatively impacts the whole gay scene in Thailand.

[Guest laurence]

T

That said, civil liberties always have to be balanced against a reasonable need for public safety.

 

Really? Just what is the need for public safety? How is the public safer with a TV camera in a go go bar? Let's face it, a bunch of officials had their own version of a circle jerk and came up with this idea of TV in a bar. No one objected a now it is the law. This is always the way it goes. Someone says we need this for security/safety etc and all the heads go bobbing up and down in agreement. Forget privacy and civil liberties.

[Guest luvthai]

Are Sunee bars the only ones to have the CCTV cameras? Do Boystown and Jomtiem bars have the same requirements?

[Guest]

Forget privacy and civil liberties.

 

I do not disagree with you Laurence. I do think it is a violation and not a good idea and bad for us all, but it is not our country and we don't make the laws here. I don't know what the expectation is for Thai's when it comes to privacy and civil liberties. I would say with the number of photos in the newspapers even violent deaths in one's own home is not private and available for public consumption.

 

 

Are Sunee bars the only ones to have the CCTV cameras? Do Boystown and Jomtiem bars have the same requirements?

 

That is a good question which I do not have an answer. My understanding is that it is national but it may just be a Pattaya thing. It is most certainly not just Sunee.

[Guest gwm4sian]

Are Sunee bars the only ones to have the CCTV cameras? Do Boystown and Jomtiem bars have the same requirements?

 

 

As far as I am aware the regulation requiring cameras came from Pattaya City Hall, so it covers all Pattaya, but not anywhere further afield.

 

Scuttlebut has it that a relative of the then mayor did very well from the contracts to install them.

[Guest lester1]

As is often the case, there is the usual amount of guesswork, conjecture, and ignorance in the replies above.

Where do I start? Firstly, knowing several bar owners, there is no doubt that the requirement to fit the cameras in the first place was another one of the scams that allowed police to rip off bar owners, hiding it behind the issue of public safety. It took its place behind the long line of such measures, such as fire extinguishers, bottled spirits must be duty tagged, music licenses etc. that allowed spot checks to made and under the counter fines to be garnered.

Secondly, the cameras, once installed and pointing at the doors (I think this was the suggestion), didnt actually need to be on or recordings kept.

On other matters, to suggest that there is not one single case on record of tapes being used for blackmail, therefore they are not used for blackmail is slightly thick. If you were successfully blackmailed you would hardly go to the authorities, or publicise over the internet the very fact that you paid to avoid.

I also loved the comment by GayThailand, who really should know better, that 'if you want to keep your sexuality private than you can always arrange a tryst over the internet so only the boy will know....'

Another weird GayThailand comment was the suggestion that 'anything that encourages people not to rough up or hurt the boys is a good thing...', or the implied comment about it might stop farangs giving small tips to boys who sit with them. Will bar owners pop up at the door and say ' Give the boy a better tip or you will be on Youtube....'

All this is not to say that I am in disagreement about some of the points made. I can imagine that the police could use such tapes to cement a case against a farang. However, it is worth repeating the fact that it is NOT against the law to sit with anybody, of any age, in a bar. Such is the habit of the Thai press to report all of the facts given to them by the police and then never report what happened next, for many of us, there will be no difference between guilty and innocent in terms of having ones private life spread all over the media.

[Guest laurence]

Excellent response Lester1

[Guest]

Secondly, the cameras, once installed and pointing at the doors (I think this was the suggestion), didnt actually need to be on or recordings kept.

Well, that may have been the suggestion but it is not what has happened in all the bars.

 

Another weird GayThailand comment was the suggestion that 'anything that encourages people not to rough up or hurt the boys is a good thing...', or the implied comment about it might stop farangs giving small tips to boys who sit with them. Will bar owners pop up at the door and say ' Give the boy a better tip or you will be on Youtube....

 

Sorry, I had written about the girl bars and the fights that break out in them but took that out of my posting. I have never seen a customer rough up a boy. Most gay men are looking to get off and not fight. It is the female bars where more of those issues arise.

 

I did not mean to imply that bar owners would chase down a customer for a small tip. I did not think I implied that. I was just venting on that one. I don't think the bar owners get involved in tips at all. But, I may be wrong on that. To think that the cameras would be used in that instance is pretty absurd and I didn't mean to imply it. It never crossed my mind. But, now that you mention it...

[Gaybutton]

There is a long thread on the Baht-Stop forum about this subject. I've stated my opinions on that thread, so I'm not going to repeat them here. But I will say that a friend and I went through most of the Sunee Plaza bars this evening. Between the dim lighting and the strobe lights I doubt that the CCTV cameras could pick up a decent image of anyone.

 

To my mind, it's all very simple. If you have misgivings about the CCTV cameras, then don't go into the bars. We can post back and forth from now until Kingdom Come our opinions about it, the intrusion on privacy, the potential for blackmail, and God-knows-what, but meanwhile the cameras are there to stay. The bar owners are not at fault. They had to comply. So, to me the bottom line is: If you oppose the CCTV cameras, then what do you think can be done about it?

 

[Guest laurence]

To my mind, it's all very simple. If you have misgivings about the CCTV cameras, then don't go into the bars.

If you oppose the CCTV cameras, then what do you think can be done about it?

I have misgivings about riding motorbikes, eating Thai cooked food, riding in airplanes and worst of all, crossing a busy soi.

But I still do those things in order to stay in Thailand and get to the bars. The CCTV thing is another nail in the coffin!

What can be done? Be careful!

 

[Guest Steve1903]

I dont see how one can compare the installation of CCTV to the enforcement of having fire extinguishers. I doubt if anyone thinks thats a bad idea.

[Bob]

I personally have no problem with security cameras and take the view that, if somebody doesn't like them, then don't go there (or, perhaps, go make a complaint about it where it might count - which I doubt is anywhere in Thailand let alone an internet message board).

 

If the cameras deter any crime or even deter some slob falang from fondling (or worse) a boy in my presence, great!

 

But my one concern is that somebody will rip one of the cameras off the wall and use it as a weapon to club me to death. That could happen! [Actually, I have no concern at all about that - but, what the hell, just like somebody blackmailling a patron because of one of these videos, it could happen although nobody's ever actually known it to happen.]

[Guest laurence]

I personally have no problem with security cameras and take the view that, if somebody doesn't like them, then don't go there (or, perhaps, go make a complaint about it where it might count - which I doubt is anywhere in Thailand let alone an internet message board).

 

If the cameras deter any crime or even deter some slob falang from fondling (or worse) a boy in my presence, great!

 

My thought is if you,or anyone else, don't want to see some farang fondling one of the workers then you should not got to a go go bar! Same same logic presented by you.

 

What is this all about? Why are people defending and justifying CCTV in a go go bar? There is no factual justification; they are intrusive.

 

Yes, complaining here will not change anything but, at least, customers of the bars can be wary and we can all sit on our hands while in the bars.

 

[Bob]

What is this all about? Why are people defending and justifying CCTV in a go go bar? There is no factual justification; they are intrusive.

 

Yes, complaining here will not change anything but, at least, customers of the bars can be wary and we can all sit on our hands while in the bars.

 

Why? I'm expressing an opinion, just like you did (and, while I'm very biased as to who has the correct one, I'll at least suggest that yours is no better than mine). It's perfectly fine that you don't like the cameras. I don't feel that way as I stated and I even welcome the cameras all over public venues. Is it a bit intrusive, at least theoretically, on our grand civil liberties? I suppose so but I don't mind it as I also believe there are positives that come along with them. I have no expectation of privacy on the streets or in somebody else' business premises (at least the public portion of those premises - and, yes, I'd probably hoot and holler if they were taking video of bathroom stalls or, perhaps, short time rooms designed for privacy).

 

And I'm not sure what you mean by sitting on one's hands in the bars. To each his own, I suppose, but I have no desire to see falangs engaged in sexual behavior in front of me. I've seen it before and find it personally disgusting. Once, in a Bangkok bar, I happened to be sitting too damn close to avoid seeing some elderly (probably in his 70's) jerk blowing one thai guy while another thai guy was blowing the old man. I'm no prude at all but, for christ's sake, I'm not there to see that gross display (and, yes, I see a big difference between that behavior by a falang customer and some of the shows I've seen - but, then again, I've gone to watch those shows a time or two over the years and watching some old geezer doing it wasn't on my agenda).

 

The cameras don't hamper my activities in a bar. Do they hamper your activities ( if so, mind saying what activities those might be)?

[Guest]

I spent most of last night on Walking Street with the boyfriend. It was interesting to say the least.

 

There were at least 500 video cameras that were being taped everywhere as the massive number of tourists were like a sea of fish being stuff into a sardine can. There was not expectation of any privacy outside in the streets and it was easy for all to video and tape and frolic.

 

Once inside, it seems the rules do not apply for this area. Sex shows were alive and in all the bars. Smoking is permitted and not frowned upon. I guess I should not be surprised that there were at least 20 or more customers in all the bars we went to and about 100 at some of the show bars. Money seemed to be pouring in left and right and the endless flow of traffic seemed to keep things moving along.

 

I assume that this flow of money will buy things that cannot be purchased in the slower gay bars. The drinks were cheaper and the places were really packed. Money in and money out.

 

I have said for years that the bars in BKK are more immune to abide by the laws as they seem to be flowing with customers willing to pay 250 baht for a drink and watch a show.

 

I wonder if the bars on Walking Street had to comply with the CCTV law? They certainly don't have to comply with most others.

[Guest laurence]

The cameras don't hamper my activities in a bar. Do they hamper your activities ( if so, mind saying what activities those might be)?

 

First of all, the go go bars are SEX clubs. The clubs are there to make money and the workers are there to sell sex in whatever form. The interaction between buyer and seller determines the amount of money to be paid in the form of a tip.

If one enters a sex club one must be prepared to perhaps endure some naughty and even obnoxious behavior by some customers.

For those type of venues, the squeamish should avoid. And, like others, I find it unpleasant in an open arena although acceptable in a "back room".

 

Ok Bob, those are my activities, and yours?

 

Do cameras hamper my activities? Well they sure do dampen them! What does one do when a dancer is asked to sit with you? Talk religion and politics? Hardly. Most often a hand is placed on a thigh; an arm around a shoulder; a hand is held. One of my "activities" is to check the merchandise before I buy. Like in the market, squeeze the fruit to see if it is hard or soft; take a whiff of a melon to see if it is ripe; sneak a grape to determine its sweetness ( gotta be careful of the CCTV)

 

The "dancer" may also initiate more physical contact and the customer may reciprocate and a deal is struck, maybe.

Do I wish to be photographed or recorded? No. Does anyone? Well it seems so judging by poster's comments.

 

There are those customers who may just enjoy a drink and stare and ogle the boys on stage and twiddle their thumbs and maybe not have someone sit and entertain them.

But let's not loose sight that these are sex clubs not tea parties.

 

And yes, I am a card carrying member of the ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union). You must know that organization, it's the one where you are branded a commie, terrorist, traitor, or worse if you try to exercise your constitutional rights. But that is in the US and not Thailand, I understand that.

 

Yes, we are all entitled to our opinion, well, maybe not in some societies.

[Guest Asmerom]

 

I also loved the comment by GayThailand, who really should know better, that 'if you want to keep your sexuality private than you can always arrange a tryst over the internet so only the boy will know....'

[/quote)

 

I wonder if you have the patience to explain what is wrong with the comment?

You clearly believe the comment is so obviously silly that anyone would understand your sarcasm. But ,I don't and I really would like to be enlightened. Why is it so stupid?

[Guest LP]

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[Guest lester1]

Lots of comments here in a worthwhile thread, some of which are worth replying to.

First, Steve1903 makes the point that surely fire extinguishers are more vital for safety than CCTV and therefore deserve to be checked up on by the police/authorities. Well yes, I agree, but only if you have a western mindset. There are top grade hotels in pattaya that come NOWHERE near the sort of western safety rules that we are used to. When gay/girly bars are targetted by inspectors and fined instantly, with no common sense approach like 'we will come back in 2 days, please make sure you have a certified fire extinguisher'. Then you have, miraculously, just after an inspection, a visit from some one claiming to represent City Hall who is willing and able to sell you an extinguisher at twice the going commercial rate. Its easy to become jaundiced with the view that what is really the issue is money and NOT safety.

Then we have Bob, who makes sensible comments about how CCTV may deter farangs from fondling boys in bars. Whilst having some sympathy with him having to observe mutual blow jobs between an old geezer and a barboy, my view is that a certain amount of tactile behaviour is not only to be expected in gogo bars but positively to be demanded. I wouldnt invite a bar boy to sit with me if I thought he was going to perch there like a virgin vicar.

Next we have Asmeron (aka Isamoron) who wondered why I was being sarcastic and demeaning about a comment by GT about it being OK to arrange over the internet a tryst in a hotel room. Remember, this is on this thread which is about personal security and privacy. Well, firstly E-mails can be copied and passed on. More to the point is that its possible to imagine GT, waiting in his room for a knock on the door from someone who he has never met before. The knock comes, in pops a young thing looking the wrong side of 18, with no ID card, followed shortly, whilst GT is pondering what to do, by another knock from two large and menacing gentleman who suggest a quick visit to an ATM might be good fun.

As I have said before, once you step into the world of 'money in exchange for sex and fun', then different rules apply and you have to adapt.

[Gaybutton]

I can't help but wonder how many people who are posting on these threads about CCTV on this and other boards are actually here in Pattaya and seeing for themselves. LP is right. I've looked for these cameras and I can't spot any of them. Also, some people are under the impression that only the gay bars are required to have these cameras. The requirement applies to every bar in Pattaya, whether gay, straight, mixed, or what-have-you. It's not even limited to the bars. Many hotels have them too.

 

It's hard for me to believe that any rational person is actually convinced that the police are going around to every bar every day, or even some of the bars some of the days, collecting the CCTV tapes, and then are sitting there viewing them all in an attempt to see if any farang happened to be seated with an under-age boy, which in itself isn't even illegal. Just for the sake of argument, let's suppose that's exactly what the police are doing. Ok, under poor lighting conditions and poor quality tapes, they would have to be able to identify the farang, identify the boy, find out the boy's actual age, find out the name of the farang, find out where he is staying, or conduct some sort of a stake-out in hopes that same farang will show up again, and then arrest him.

 

This whole thing keeps moving further and further toward the top of my "I Don't Get It" list. If nothing else, the requirement is only that the bars have CCTV cameras installed. I know of no actual requirement that they even be in working order or even activated.

 

Someone said he heard that one bar owner is turning tapes over to the police in order to keep out of trouble himself. That was based on an Email a user received and to my knowledge, nothing about that was ever substantiated. That was weeks ago already. Supposedly, the bar in question is one of the bars that routinely hires under-age boys. Ok, anybody heard about any arrests as a result of those tapes? Has anybody even heard a rumor about such an arrest? Certainly, if that was the intent of those tapes, the police have had plenty of time to start arresting people.

 

Somebody else said maybe there have been arrests, but the media isn't reporting it. Right. Every time a pedophile is arrested the media is always champing at the bit to publicize it and the police love to parade those who have been arrested in front of the news cameras, but they're keeping quiet about CCTV tape arrests? Somebody is going to have a very difficult time convincing me that is the case. Folks, for all we know some of these bars may have had CCTV cameras in place ever since they were first invented. Everybody seems to be assuming that none of the bars ever had any until it became mandatory. I make no such assumption.

 

Some people are saying the cameras are an intrusion on privacy. I disagree with that because I don't see how people can be sitting in a go go bar, in full view of anybody else who happens to be in there or walks in, and then figures his privacy is being invaded. I also remind you that Thai law does not include western ideas about privacy rights. Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore.

 

In short, and this is only my opinion and I do make room for the possibility I could be totally wrong, but I think this whole thing has been blown way out of proportion, to the point it has virtually become paranoia. You can do what you want, think what you want, and be as afraid as you want to be, but as for me I'm not going to start worrying until there is something to worry about. When I see that people have been so much as inconvenienced because of the CCTV cameras, let alone actually arrested or questioned, that's when I'll start worrying. Until then, life goes on . . .

[Bob]

I actually have no problem with some physical contact whether be a friendly pat on the ass, a hug, somebody chatting while laying on hand on a shoulder or a leg, the Throb dog (dalmation?) doing a dry hump to some customer's face, etc. Heck, that's to be expected and I'm not going to worry about whether some internal security camera sees me doing that. And I frankly have no problems with people going into the joints that show full nudity or sex shows.

 

We all appreciate the Thai physique and, if somebody wants to see a sex show, that's fine by me (hell, it's been a few years, but I've gone and seen a few of those myself). And, frankly, I don't give a hoot about what some 70-year old farang or Japanese lady or whoever do outside my presence.

But I see no reason when I go into these places that it's acceptable behavior for the falang next to me to pull the Thai's kid's dick out of his pants to inspect it, blow it, or bless it, and I personally find that behavior (expecially by some obnoxious and/or drunk falang) unacceptable (I didn't go into the bar to see that shit). So, to the extent the cameras may stop that kind of behavior in my presence,

fine by me. But, to be honest, I'm doubtful if the truly obnoxious will be deterred at all by the cameras.

 

Maybe I'm wrong but there is certain bedroom behaviour I like, do and enjoy but the public area of a public bar ain't the place for falangs to display it.

 

 

 

 

[Guest laurence]

Leaving on a jet plane, don't know when I'll be back again!

 

Yes, in a few days will be in Pattaya and checking out the bar scene in person. You will "recognize" me; the guy with the bag over his head and wearing mittens.

[Guest]

Yes, in a few days will be in Pattaya and checking out the bar scene in person. You will "recognize" me; the guy with the bag over his head and wearing mittens.

 

I have seen masks being worn but no bags yet.

 

I met a guy at Jimm Jimmy last night. He was 21 and he said was an old boy for Sunee but only worked there for 6 months. He had one of the biggest dicks I had seen. When I asked if he was able to use it, he said, "can't stay hard and fuck falang." I asked why and he said, not sure. Perhaps if I take a paper bag in for my face and another for my tummy and show it to him he may be able to change this position?

[Guest joseph44]

Knowing of 2 bars (1 host bar on Sunnee and 1 gogo-bar on Pattayaland) equipped with cctv 'systems'.

The first one has a camera positioned opposite the entrance of the bar. The monitor is standing behind the bar, visible for everyone and turned off!

The second one has a real system with camera positions: entrance outside-area, the toilet and room-entrances 2nd floor. The monitor switched between the several camera-positions randomly.

In both cases there was a system and it was visible.

 

As far as I know, the cctv will only be used if there is a reason to use it. In most cases there will be no recordings because the cctv systems are turned off or just not functioning properly.

 

[Guest LP]

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