Sawatdee - Heaven & Hell

[Guest Khunatm]

There is an intriguing, for me at least, thread evolving on Sawatdee which I can not respond to there, so I would like to do so via this forum.

 

The thread is entitled Dead or Alive, it doesn’t matter to me. And the link is http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum...-me-t15016.html

 

I recall soon after arriving in Pattaya I met an expatriate who was living and working in Thailand. For the purpose of this story I will refer to him as Allan. I arranged to have lunch with Allan together with another close friend who had also recently arrived in Thailand but was working in Bangkok.

 

Allan had been here for about eight years and he dominated most of the conversation telling us how much he despised Thai’s and detested Thailand. My friend and I survived the lunch by biting our lip but when alone we both agreed Allan was a bitter ungrateful character and vowed he would never share our company again.

 

However, I have to admit as the years have past, especially the latter years, I have thought a great deal about what Allan said that day. I feel certain most of those participating in the relevant Sawatdee thread would agree at some time they have all thought Thailand is one of the most beautiful countries in the world, for a variety of reasons, but eventually most of us realize that living and especially working with Thai’s can be enormously frustrating.

 

It reminds me a lot of the old television series Naked City which had two incarnations between 1958 and 1963 as one of America’s most popular police shows.

 

It was a human interest series about New York, told through the eyes of two law enforcement officers. The show's signature was its narrator, who introduced each episode with the assurance that the series was not filmed in a studio, but "in the streets and buildings of New York itself," and returned thirty minutes later to intone the series' famous tag-line, "There are eight million stories in the Naked City. This has been one of them”.

 

With its stories generally emphasizing the points-of-view of the criminals, victims, or persons-in-crisis, Naked City exhibited a more complicated and ambiguous vision of morality and justice than traditional programs where good and bad were clear-cut. Most of the characters were simply people with problems, who stumbled up against the law by accident or ill fortune; when the occasional hit man, bank robber, or jewel thief was encountered, they too were humanized, their motives and psyches probed. However, sociopaths and career crooks were far outnumbered by more mundane denizens of the naked city, thrust into crisis by circumstance: an innocent ex-con accused of murder; a disfigured youth living in the shadows of the tenements; a Puerto Rican immigrant worn down by poverty and unemployment; a lonely city bureaucrat overcome by suicidal despair; a junior executive who kills over a parking space; a sightless boy on an odyssey through the streets of Manhattan. Eight million stories, or at least 138 as dramatized in this series, rooted in the sociology and psychology of human pain.

 

The series was canceled at the end of the 1962-63 season, but its influence was already clear. Naked City offered narrative portraits, exposed through the equally revealing light of the writer's imagination. Ultimately Naked City was less about a city and more about people which is why the portraits were often disturbing, but always fascinating.

 

Different time and different place, but for me the similarities to the stories told in Naked City and the country, that I now call home, are uncanny.

 

In 2004 my Thai companion and I visited Sydney. One morning, about two o’clock, while wandering through Kings Cross we both agreed we felt more comfortable in most places we had been to in Thailand than where we were then.

 

I know some of the people who have posted on the relevant Sawatdee thread and they know me. Others I don’t know but I feel I do. And as I said, I have found this particular thread fascinating reading. And while I sympathize with much of what has been expressed I can not help but think of the old expression, “You don’t appreciate something until it’s gone.”

 

For me I will always consider myself fortunate to be able to reside in Pattaya and even more fortunate to have been able to work here. However, I do long for the day that I can retire to a somewhat remote rural environment that my Thai friend is establishing. But I have to admit there is no doubt I will occasionally yearn to return, if only for a few days, to the place that has been heaven and hell, and I don't regret one moment.

 

(With acknowledgment to Mark Alvey - Museum of Broadcasting Communications)

[Gaybutton]

I have not read the referred-to thread on Sawatdee, so my response is based solely on the post above.

 

I have been living as a retiree in Pattaya for four years. Prior to that I was in Thailand for several months each year. There is, of course, a major difference between living permanently here and being here only as a holiday maker.

 

I believe life in Pattaya and Thailand is a combination of experiences most of us share and experiences you only have as an individual. In my own case, I have met many wonderful people, a few people who I thought were wonderful and it turned out they weren't (and I'm sure the feeling is mutual), and a few people I wish I had never encountered. I have been treated with complete honesty and kindness by most Thais I've met and used and abused by a few others. I have had fabulous boyfriend experiences and have survived two terrible horror stories. Pattaya itself has plenty of frustrating problems, but also offers very much of what I want out of life that I have never found anywhere else.

 

When I step back and look at all the wonderful things that have happened to me here, along with the terrible things that have happened to me here, and also compare my life here to the life I was living before residing permanently here, for me the positive aspects of living here vastly outweigh the negatives. When I step back and consider the people, both Thai and farang, who I have met and with whom I have formed friendships, I realize the friends I have here are the best friends I've ever had in my life. Within my circle of friends there are people for whom I would do anything and I can honestly say I love. I can't recall feeling that way about anyone from "back home." There are very few people from "back home" who I miss at all.

 

I am happier here than I have ever been in my life, and I'm grateful this is happening to me during what is probably the final third of my life. I am continually getting much more out of life here than I ever had before. I'm happy I'm finally getting what I've always wanted out of life now rather than feeling I'm losing anything I had before.

 

In keeping with the idea that you can't appreciate the sweet without experiencing some of the bitter, I'm glad that I've gone through only enough bitter to be able to greatly appreciate the sweet.

 

Like you, I too consider myself very fortunate to be able to live here and I cannot think of anywhere on Earth I would rather be than where I am right now.

[dapitt]

Thanks to each of you for these two excellent postings!

[Bob]

Yes, enjoyable postings and comments.

 

Everybody approaches their life with their own rose-colored glasses and often what one experiences is based on what your own mind has confined you to in the past. And I don't for a moment believe that those people who become disillusioned with Thailand (and start asserting that all or most of the Thai people are only after your money and are worthless - which exactly what was posted on the other forum) were not disillusioned the same way in their own country.

 

After a few years of reading the various gay forums (mainly Ned's, GB's, and GP's), I became to believe at times that somehow living in Thailand longterm led to an expat becoming bitter and jaded; however, I've eventually come to learn that most realistic and reasonably happy people stay that way regardless of experiences and that jaded and bitter people eventually show their colors (i.e., self destruct).

 

I've had a lot of experiences with divorce proceedings as a professional and I'm always amazed that a lot of people move to different locales with the notion that "hey, my unhappy times are associated with this place or those particular people and I, being the grand old person I am, can move to a new good place and have a new, happy, life." Unfortunately, for most, the baggage they brought catches up to them months or a few years later and they move again to fix the problem again. A little inner reflection and change of attitude would have done the trick in the first place, presuming an older adult is even capable of that major change.

 

It's all about one's own personal attitude and how you have trained your mind to perceive things. Some may call it naivete and, if that's what it is for me, I'm actually happy as hell about that. Life is generally good both here and in Thailand for me and I'm hopeful that continues until it's time to take the dirt nap.

[Guest]

There are many firsts in life that we don’t remember. I don’t remember my first visit from the tooth fairy or the way he was dressed. I don’t remember my first ride on a horse as I grew up on a farm and not even sure I could walk before that first ride came.

 

There are many firsts that are documented by photos that jog our memory of times past. I have the photo from my first day of school and the tears rolling down my eyes as I was leaving my mother for the first time. I have a photo of my first car and the bright shinny baby blue paint job that it had. I have a photo from my first roller coaster and the closed eyes and open mouth that I had from the thrill of the ride.

 

I also remember my first trip to Thailand and the totally naiveté that I had. It was an amazing trip and I had never dreamed it would be so wonderful. I had just broken up with my lover of 5 years. He had taken a path into hard-core drugs and I could not bear to even be in the same time zone as he was in as the pain was constant and I thought that distance would alleviate the sadness. In many ways it did. But, it was more the wonders of Thailand that helped to relieve the pain.

 

I spent many days in Bangkok and Chiang Mai before I made way to Pattaya. I wasn’t really sure what to expect in any place but I loved each city. To be honest, Pattaya was my least favorite and the reasons for that were many but I still enjoyed my time there. My first trip to the old Crazy Pub just about scared me shitless and my first visit to a local Sunee bar was not something I ever wanted to see again.

 

My time in Bangkok was what I most remember of the trip and it was there that I really fell in love with Thailand. I loved the boys, the food, the gentleness of the people there and the kindness shown to me by all I came in contact with.

 

I don’t think I would ever had resided very long in Pattaya but on my second trip there, I happened to meet a local guy that I had met on my first trip and I offed him for 2 weeks on my first night in Pattaya. He ended up my first boyfriend in Thailand and I always say that he taught me many lessons on what NOT to do with a boyfriend there. I am still friends with him to this day but needless to say, he ended up taking me for a much faster roller coaster ride than my first ride at Six Flags 30 years before. As I wanted to support him when I left, I left him my ATM card and he ended up spending about 500,000 baht the first year. It wasn’t the money that I minded so much as it was the way he spent it. He was an even bigger spending in bars than I was which is not easy to find.

 

Anyway, he was my first and he still has a huge part of my heart and I still adore him. Had I not met him, I don’t think I would have spent a great deal of time in Pattaya. His friends were there and so was his family, what was left of it. Because he loved the city, I grew to love it. I also grew to see the darker side of it.

 

Like all cities, Pattaya has many wonders and many secrets. The dark alleys in Pattaya are perhaps some of the darkest I have seen. The fun streets in Pattaya are perhaps some of the most wondrous of anywhere. The people that flow from these streets are an eclectic mix of Thais, Foreigners and friends. There are those that you know are bad to even speak to and those that you are intrigued by. I have met many guys on my trips there and have yet to understand much of what happens in that city. The longer I stay away from it, the more I understand of it and myself.

 

I met my first real Falang friend in Pattaya and we were together for several years and almost inseparable when I was there. Turns out that I was always looking at the situation from the wrong angle. He turned out to be the opposite of what I thought he was. This happens a great deal in Pattaya and I can’t honestly say that there is anyone I have met there that I truly understand. Perhaps there is one or two that I know where they stand and that their intentions are good but I didn’t meet them in the bars or on the streets of Sunee. There are those in Pattaya that are only there to take you down or try to do harm to you. That group includes both Thai and Falang. But, for all of those that have bad intentions, there are the times that you luck upon that one special guy that makes your heart flutter and your mind crazy.

 

I met my current boyfriend almost 4 years ago. He has held my attention ever since. He really is the most wonderful person I know. Not the most wonderful Thai but the most wonderful person. He has been good to me and taken great care of me every time I see him. I talk to him almost every night and the conversations that were very short in the beginning have grown to lengthy ones in the past months. We have more in common and a common history. I know he does not have bad intentions. He was the first that I have truly loved in the LOS. To this day, he still takes my breath away when I see him and takes a few tears from my eyes when I say goodbye after a trip there.

 

Like all places, there are those that will try to do harm to you and those that will try to be your guardian angel. Pattaya has all sorts. It is really a mixture of Heaven and Hell. It is rolled up together in a mixture that has wonderful spices and a flavor that no place else on earth has. I really do envy those that call Pattaya home and are able to stay there year round. I don’t think I’ll ever be able to spend the majority of my time there but I do enjoy the brief trips I have there.

 

I was really moved to read of Bucky’s experiences in Thailand. It brought great sadness. It is a hard lesson to learn. I could tell stories of a thousand lessons I have learned in that country. The lessons were hard and painful but they helped me to appreciate the place even more. I hope that Bucky will one day look into the experience and be able to take many positive things from it and return to a land that can damage the soul but can also lift it higher and higher.

 

Thanks KhunATM for your great post in starting this thread and to the others who have shared their stories as well. They really do help me to see even more clearly about a place that I love.

 

 

[Guest sabaisabai]

Thank you all for your postings to this thread. Wonderful insights!!

[Guest Khunatm]

Sabaisabai. Thank you.

 

I have also enjoyed reading about individual experiences as regards life evolving in the LOS.

 

There is no agenda here, just an invitation for experiences that we can all share and learn from, void of flaming.

[KhorTose]

There is no agenda here, just an invitation for experiences that we can all share and learn from, void of flaming.

 

To all of you who have told their stories, thank you. You not only touched my heart, but you've opened my eyes, and made me rethink my dislike for Pattaya. Yes, at this moment I do not share you love of Pattaya, but allow me to share my story. My dislike is not fueled by bitterness, but an entirely different approach to Thailand and life in General.

I started out in LOS in Chiang Mai with a boy I met on line. He took very good care of me and we spent ten days seeing much in and around Chiang Mai. He was a bar boy, who lived in Chon Buri. When I found out he was married I decided not to continue the relationship beyond Chiang Mai. I next went to Burma by myself for 8 days and toured Yangoon, Mandalay, Bagan and Mt. Poppa, with a fantastic company that provided some of the best guides anyone could ask to have.

Then I returned to Bangkok, or tout city. After Chiang Mai and Burma, Bangkok was a whole new world. I went from an observer of the local customs and culture, to a mark for all the touts and schemers. Nothing I had experienced up to this point had prepared me for this. When I looked for the Thai culture that I had seen in Chiang Mai, what I found was transplanted Western Culture. I spent six days in Bangkok where I had to be on the alert every day for touts, pickpockets and schemers. I did meet one very handsome hot Thai guy who I fell deeply in love with. He was very good in bed, but I could not keep him from drinking every thing in sight. Nevertheless, I liked him so much that I agreed to take him to Pattaya with me where I had reservations for six days. On the way we stopped in a small town somewhere in Chon Buri to meet his family. After watching the whole family become fallen down drunk, and getting the sick sister and can you help my brother’s business stories, I gave up on boy #2.

On to Pattaya where I had Pattaya’s best guide in GayButton. GB does not remember me because he has helped so many people both by being a guide, and with his outstanding message board that I am sure the names and faces run together. In spite of Bangkok, I was still considering a move to Thailand and maybe opening a restaurant. GB took me to a well established place and introduced me to the owner/chef who provided me with a wealth of information. After leaving the restaurant we went to Boystown where he took me to Gacuya, a very good bar at the time. (A place I enjoyed on each and every visit) Here we separated, but he gave me his number and we met several times after that, and I continued to get great advice from him up to the day I returned home.

On my own after GB left, I decided to go to Sunee Plaza since I was staying at the Yensabai Condos. As GayPattayan said, “The dark alleys in Pattaya are perhaps some of the darkest I have seen.” Just like a certain man is the elephant in the closet when we talk politics in Thailand, so is the pedophile the elephant when we talk about Pattaya. I do not wish to offend, but some of those alleys are just to dark for me to stomach, and I have the European definition of pedophilia, not the American Christian Right’s definition.

Please do not get me wrong. I do not condemn the people who go to Sunee, as I also see the plus side of the plaza. In fact, I spent my last night enjoying myself at a corner bar that a trombone-playing friend of GB recommended, and met a very nice young man. Not all of the plazas or all of the people there are bad. It is just what is bad is very very bad and I do not want to see it happening and be helpless to do anything about it. Pedophilia can and does occur everywhere, it is just TOO obvious in Sunee Plaza.

So I do not reject Thailand, and I have no bitterness in my heart, although some of the things that happened to Bucknaway happened to me. In fact I love Thailand, but I have seen enough of "dark alleys" to last me a lifetime. They not only exist in Thailand, but we have some of them in the USA and there are others elsewhere in the world. It is just that I do not wish to live near any of them, and I really don’t think you can avoid seeing them in Pattaya.

What I really want, besides a good-looking young man, is to grow old and still feel that I am needed. There is a great need in this country for so many things that I can do from teaching English, (It is the world’s language—like it or not.) to sponsoring someone in college or helping them start a business. By helping others I can fulfill my desire to still be needed, and that is very important to me. I find the needs are greater in Chiang Mai then elsewhere in Thailand, and the dark alleys are very well hidden. However, you have all made me rethink my dislike of Pattaya

[Guest]

What I really want, besides a good-looking young man, is to grow old and still feel that I am needed. There is a great need in this country for so many things that I can do from teaching English, (It is the world’s language—like it or not.) to sponsoring someone in college or helping them start a business. By helping others I can fulfill my desire to still be needed, and that is very important to me. I find the needs are greater in Chiang Mai then elsewhere in Thailand, and the dark alleys are very well hidden. However, you have all made me rethink my dislike of Pattaya

 

I think you hit the nail on the head for me as well. I really love to feel like I am needed and am doing something good in someone’s life. I send my boyfriend to school and this is his last year of high school. He is 23 years old and when I met him, he had only a 6th grade education. He is getting ready for college next year and I hope he decides to go to school in USA (it would sure help me with the rising costs of airfare). But, I’ll leave that decision up to him. I do know that regardless of what others say, his going to school will benefit him in his future more than any amount of money I could give him. When I asked him last week what he wanted for his birthday, he said, “nothing. You have already done so much for my family and me. Just being there for me is all I could ask.” He was so sweet and while I will still get him something, the fact that he knows and can verbalize so easily how changed his life is makes all the rough times I have had appear so insignificant.

 

An education is one of the greatest gifts anyone can give to someone else. It is cheap to do and if you luck upon that person that really wants it, you will strike gold. I did date a few who said it was what they wanted, but when push came to shove, they choose the fun life of Pattaya over that of a dedicated student. There are those that want to be a student and for those that have the means, it is am amazing process to watch and be an active part of. When I first met the boyfriend, he could not speak English or write anything. Now, his English is better than most of my Farang friends in Pattaya. He is able to converse on more subjects than many and his writing is excellent. I have loved every step I have taken with him and watching some of his dreams come true has made many of mine come true.

 

 

[dapitt]

....and watching some of his dreams come true has made many of mine come true.

A wonderful and marvelous sentiment. Thanks for sharing it.