MOVING TO BANGKOK!

[Guest maxmooney]

Hello all. I will be moving to Bangkok soon for a year as a tutor. But I am also a DJ. Am looking for friends to show me around and for people who may be able to hook me up with bar managers for possible DJ gigs.

How is the club scene? I have DJd in NYC, Miami, Atlanta, Berlin, Phuket and Honolulu and would like to add Bangkok to that list.

Thanks for any info!

Max

[Gaybutton]

Before you get too excited, I don't need to burst your bubble, but I do need to point a pin at it. You are not going to be allowed to do any of this sort of work without a Thai work permit. You did not say whether you have investigated about getting a work permit, but I have a feeling you are going to have a big problem getting one. Since you did not say anything about a work permit, I'll write my response as if you do not have one and did not realize that you need to check into this.

 

Work permits are not usually issued to "farang" unless they own a business or Thai citizens can't do the same job. There is no shortage of Thai DJ's in Thailand willing to work in the bars. The same applies to being a tutor. You'll need a work permit for that too. If you have done this sort of work in Thailand before without a work permit and did not end up arrested, then you've been lucky.

 

I advise you to consult a competent Thai attorney before even approaching bars or anything related to this sort of work and tutoring work, even if you are willing to work on a volunteer basis. Thai law would consider that as taking a job opportunity away from a Thai citizen and you could end up arrested and deported. Thailand is very strict about allowing foreigners to work.

 

Whatever you do, please make sure you talk with a Thai attorney first. If you don't know any, I'll be glad to put you in touch with mine. Just send me an E-mail at gaybutton@gmail.com if you want the contact information. He does respond to E-mail, but you would be much better off springing for a phone call. I would also advise, if the attorney tells you that you would indeed be eligible for the necessary work permits, to ask about what kind of visa you will need prior to your arrival in Thailand.

 

Believe it or not, there was actually a problem after the tsunami. Many foreigners who were voluntarily trying to help were actually arrested because they did not have a work permit. Welcome to Thai logic.

[khaolakguy]

Yeah this DJ thing is a real problem. Despite all the foreign DJs that have been working in Bangkok, Samui and Phuket etc over the last twenty years, when did you last read or hear of one being arrested. I guess that they all had work permits.

 

Yeah right.

[Gaybutton]

Yeah this DJ thing is a real problem. Despite all the foreign DJs that have been working in Bangkok, Samui and Phuket etc over the last twenty years, when did you last read or hear of one being arrested. I guess that they all had work permits.

 

Yeah right.

 

That's fine. You've convinced me. Now all you have to do is convince the immigration police and the Thai courts. If you really think it is worth taking the chance and not worth bothering to consult an attorney to make sure of the legality, then go for it. I'll save a 'Get Out of Jail Free' card from my Monopoly game in case you need it.

 

Are you actually trying to tell maxmooney that he is pefectly safe and should just go ahead and do it without first making sure he is complying with Thai law?

 

My understanding of the Thai law is that "farang" cannot work in Thailand, period, without a work permit. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I'm not a Thai attorney and something tells me you're not either. I have no idea how many "farang" are working as DJ's or tutors. It doesn't matter how many are. If the law permits them to do so, fine. If not, then they are taking their chances. You say "I guess that they all had work permits. Yeah, right." Do you know that they don't? Do you know what kind of visas they hold? Also, you you are implying that there are a great many "farang" working as DJ's in Thailand. I've never seen any and I've been to all those places.

 

Maxmooney said he wants to work as both a DJ and a tutor and wants to do that work for a year. If you are trying to advise him that there is no reason to consult a Thai attorney first, then what do you say to him if he follows that advice and ends up arrested? Sorry?

[khaolakguy]

Gaybutton,

You pointed out the law, helpfully. I balanced that by pointing out the normal custom and practice. Of course an individual should place himself in a position where he can make an informed opinion, presumably the reason for the original post. But Thailand is not a country where the law is as black and white as you represent it.

[Guest A Rose By Any Other Name]

Gentlemen, please...

 

You both raise very real and valid observations. Indeed, there is much illegal and unsanctioned work going on in Thailand by foreigners. However, this does not mean it is right, or safe by any stretch of the imagination. I think the poster needs to know the laws as they are, and perhaps the consequences as well should he choose to ignore those laws. In contrast, knowing that there are other possibilities that exist provide him with the opportunity to follow the letter of the law, or choose to break the law and come what may.

 

So you see, you both gave valuable information. Well done!

 

The Rose

[Gaybutton]

Guys, I'm sorry, but I disagree with you. I think it is dead wrong to tell people that immigration laws are largely ignored. They are not and I see no validity in suggesting that they are. Thailand may play games when it comes to enforcement of certain laws, such as prostitution laws, but they play no games when it comes to immigration law. I might agree with you if it was general practice in Thailand to disregard immigration law, but I and many others here, know of too many instances in which people working without a permit were arrested and deported or at least went through some very rough times.

 

In my opinion, suggesting that people can come to Thailand and work without a work permit, and in the process causing them to think it's common practice and something that everybody does with impunity, is misleading and can result in very serious consequences. If people are working without permits, then the only reason they are still in Thailand doing so is because they haven't been caught . . . yet.

 

As a moderator of this message board, I think it would be totally irresponsible of me not to dispute that. I also think the immigration laws and rules about foreigners working in Thailand are indeed as black and white as I represent and it is too great a risk to try to circumvent those laws. If the guy wants to try it after we do our best to make sure he understands about the Thai laws, that's his affair, but I don't think he should be encouraged to do so.

[Guest A Rose By Any Other Name]

Listen Gay Button, you have made your opinions known already. Why beat a dead horse? If he wants to break immigration laws, then he'll do it. If he wants to be legal, he'll consult an attorney. He's been given both choices and both sides of the coin. That's all he needs.

 

Let's not preach, let's just provide well-rounded information.

 

The Rose

[Gaybutton]

Listen Gay Button, you have made your opinions known already. Why beat a dead horse? If he wants to break immigration laws, then he'll do it. If he wants to be legal, he'll consult an attorney. He's been given both choices and both sides of the coin. That's all he needs.

 

Let's not preach, let's just provide well-rounded information.

 

The Rose

 

Because I don't consider it to be a dead horse. But relax. I intend no further 'preaching.' I've already made my point as far as I intend to take it.

[Guest stef]

Because I don't consider it to be a dead horse. But relax. I intend no further 'preaching.' I've already made my point as far as I intend to take it.

 

Better be safe than sorry. It is better to know the thruth about the law than going blind into something that can bite you in the A*s at the end.

Thanks GayButton for pointing out the logic. Hope people will understand, it is not that easy to do whatever you wish. Legal advice is always a good thing.

 

 

[khaolakguy]

Before you get too excited, I don't need to burst your bubble, but I do need to point a pin at it. You are not going to be allowed to do any of this sort of work without a Thai work permit. You did not say whether you have investigated about getting a work permit, but I have a feeling you are going to have a big problem getting one. Since you did not say anything about a work permit, I'll write my response as if you do not have one and did not realize that you need to check into this.

 

Work permits are not usually issued to "farang" unless they own a business or Thai citizens can't do the same job. There is no shortage of Thai DJ's in Thailand willing to work in the bars.

 

The entertainment pages of the newspapers and popular magazines in Thailand are full of plugs for clubs with foreign DJs. Didn't you ever see them?

 

You seem to be saying that the original poster can't get a work permit to work as a DJ, so what are all these foreign DJs doing? Working illegally? When did you last hear about one of them being arrested? Or working legally, in which case it is possible to get a work permit as a DJ.

 

Which do you think it is?

 

[Gaybutton]

The entertainment pages of the newspapers and popular magazines in Thailand are full of plugs for clubs with foreign DJs. Didn't you ever see them?

 

You seem to be saying that the original poster can't get a work permit to work as a DJ, so what are all these foreign DJs doing? Working illegally? When did you last hear about one of them being arrested? Or working legally, in which case it is possible to get a work permit as a DJ.

 

Which do you think it is?

 

It doesn't matter what I think it is. It only matters what the law is. That's why I am saying to consult a Thai attorney rather than drawing your own conclusions based on the fact that you see ads or haven't heard about any arrests. If foreign DJ's can work legally without a work permit, or they can get work permits, fine. But what on earth is wrong with checking first to make sure?

[khaolakguy]

It doesn't matter what I think it is. It only matters what the law is. That's why I am saying to consult a Thai attorney rather than drawing your own conclusions based on the fact that you see ads or haven't heard about any arrests. If foreign DJ's can work legally without a work permit, or they can get work permits, fine. But what on earth is wrong with checking first to make sure?

 

Because if you have to consult a lawyer before you take every step in life, and abide by his his self protective advice on every occasion, then you will have no life.

[Bob]

Sounds like a question about the level of risk one wishes to undertake (there's no question about the law as GB pointed out).

Based upon what I've known a couple of times but more based on what I've consistently heard, the thai authorities don't usually look the other way when a falang is caught working without a work permit. I wouldn't risk losing my right to stay or return to Thailand for this.....but, hey, I wouldn't drive a motorcycle from Bangkok to Pattaya either....

[Gaybutton]

It seems to me that 'maxmooney' and everyone else reading this thread now has our views and opinions and should now have enough to make their own decisions.

 

I think 'A Rose By Any Other Name' is right that it is now more than enough from both sides of the issue. At this point all we can do is repeat ourselves or rephrase.

 

I think all that's left to do now is to wish best of luck to 'maxmooney' and express hope that whatever decision he makes, it will be the right one.

 

[Guest ToyFan]

I've been told farang need a work permit even if working gratis, for instance for a charity; even drunken farang climbing on stage in a go-go bar (Whatever happened to the hook--When you really need one?) And, closer to home, even or to repair or paint one's own condo.

 

Just curious?

Do all the visiting drag queens doing their (Sarah Bernhardt) Thailand turns have work permits? (seriously.)

 

Or does a policy of noblesse oblige come into play. (NOT seroiusly.)

[Guest wowpow]

maxmooney _ I think that you would be wise to read www.stickman.com on moving to Bangkok and teaching there. You will certainly want to get a work permit to teach and the schools or employers normally organise that for you.

 

I suppose that the DJ thing depends on how often you work and who for. If it's very discreet then you may not be taking tooo much of a chance - but definitely a chance of jail and being deported. Even the Aid workers after the Tsunami had to get work permits eventually.

 

I am assured that it is true that a foreigner was arrested for tending his house garden and was deported. In Thailand any offence is reason for deportation though mostly you are allowed back in after a time.

 

Maybe it would be wise to get the tutoring sorted and then investigate the DJ situation when you are in Bangkok?

[khaolakguy]

I am assured that it is true that a foreigner was arrested for tending his house garden and was deported. In Thailand any offence is reason for deportation though mostly you are allowed back in after a time.

 

 

And which barstool expert gave you this valuable assurance? Such an extraordinary case would surely have been reported in the press. Details please.

[Guest wowpow]

I have no source. I thought it might have been Stickman but I can't find it there. It may have been on www.thaivisa.com - feel free to search or treat as the Urban Myth that it may well be. I did not say it was recent so your remark on the press is not relevant.

 

Please don't feel that you have to believe everything on a forum.

[Gaybutton]

I have no source. I thought it might have been Stickman but I can't find it there. It may have been on www.thaivisa.com - feel free to search or treat as the Urban Myth that it may well be. I did not say it was recent so your remark on the press is not relevant.

 

Please don't feel that you have to believe everything on a forum.

 

I don't know why khaolakguy is making such an issue of trying to convince people that you can work in Thailand without a work permit. I also don't know what makes him think that these deportations are going to appear in newspapers in the first place or that we have to prove something as if we are in a courtroom. Regarding the arrests of Tsunami volunteers who had no work permit, that was all over the newspapers when it happened. But I'm not going to waste my time trying to find those articles just to be able to prove it to khaolakguy or anybody else. What for?

 

There is such a thing as common knowledge and it is common knowledge that "farang" are not allowed to legally work in Thailand without a work permit. When you apply for the one-year visa they tell you that while you are sitting there in the immigration police office. What do we have to do, record the conversation? Also, you are not going to be issued a work permit under any circumstances if you are in Thailand on a tourist visa.

 

This is a pointless debate. What is going to be accomplished by it? Anybody who plans to work in Thailand would have to be nuts to rely on the word of what is posted on any web site at all. The thing to do is to personally check with a Thai attorney and/or the immigration police. It doesn't matter what is said on a message board. The only thing that matters is what the law is and what kind of visa you must have. The only truly reliable information is going to come from Thai attorneys and the immigration police. I don't understand why the logic of that is being disputed.

[Guest A Rose By Any Other Name]

Just curious?

Do all the visiting drag queens doing their (Sarah Bernhardt) Thailand turns have work permits? (seriously.)

 

Or does a policy of noblesse oblige come into play. (NOT seroiusly.)

 

This brings up a good point and is very relevant to this thread. I also would like to know if such performers as Jim of Ambiance/Boyz, Boyz, Boyz or that big toothed guy over at La Cage have work permits to perform in all the shows they do. In Jim's case, I believe he has a work permit from Ambiance Group to be the manager, but I highly doubt that this includes dressing up as a woman (ok, booger-drag queen) in amazingly expensive and intricate gowns.

 

Why is this any different from spinning vinyl at a local pub?

 

The Rose

[Gaybutton]

This brings up a good point and is very relevant to this thread. I also would like to know if such performers as Jim of Ambiance/Boyz, Boyz, Boyz or that big toothed guy over at La Cage have work permits to perform in all the shows they do. In Jim's case, I believe he has a work permit from Ambiance Group to be the manager, but I highly doubt that this includes dressing up as a woman (ok, booger-drag queen) in amazingly expensive and intricate gowns.

 

Why is this any different from spinning vinyl at a local pub?

 

The Rose

 

The telephone number at the Ambiance is 038-424 099. You could always call him and ask.

 

Whether his work permit covers the shows or not, I'll bet my bottom dollar he made sure to check with his attorney first.

[Guest wowpow]

Gaybutton must be right. It is illegal and unwise to work in Thailand, paid or not, without a work permit. There is a chance that you will be arrested, jailed, brought to court before a magistrate, found guilty, fined and deported. If you have problems getting an airticket you languish in a Thai jail until this is achieved. I for one would not contemplate such foolishness.

 

However, the truth of the matter is that there are many hundreds and thousands of people working in Thailand ( some estimate over a million ) without work permits. I read somewhere (don't as for the source puleeze!) that in 2004 the Immigration Police re-patriated c 282,000 people. Sure the vast majority were illegal immigrants without even a Visa or 30 days permission. They, mainly, come from Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia and Malaysia.

 

I have seen these poor guys in the jail at Pattaya. Then Police seem to be quite kind to them as they know that they have nothing and only try to work to help their families. On a prison visit we took oranges and they line up and take one each and then put the peel neatly in a bin. On one occasion they were all sitting on the ground handcuffed with their hands on theri heads waiting for the bus to take them back to their country. Very sad!

 

I have many tales of 'work permits' such as a friend who worked as a teacher at a good local Pattaya school. The school take care of the work permit but held onto the passports for a long time. Eventually an American teacher spoke to the Embassy and the school returned the passports. The American lady found that she had stamps for exitting Thailand, entering Malaysia, a Non-Immigrant O Visa, a Work permit, exit fom Malaysia and arrival back in Thailand. The school claimed to have used a local solicitor to handle teacher's permit matters.

 

A friend went to meet a group of twenty friends from Myanmar who came on a day trip to Pattaya at Loy Krathong. They had work permits but were oblidged to stay in Bangkok unless granted permission to travel. They were all arrested and deported. Like many deportees the come back again.

 

I am pretty sure that there are lots of, permit free, westerners breaking the rules and working as English teachers, diving instructors, tour guides (Japanese and Chinese groups have to have Thai guides) occasional charity Cabaret performers and bar owners. The vast majority get away with it.

 

I also reflect that Europe and even more so in the USA there are droves of illegal economic immigrants working.

 

 

[Guest ToyFan]

 

http://www.business-in-asia.com/th_workpermit.html

 

So far as the question re Madam Jim, it would seem a work permit for one location allows working at that location in any capacity.

 

 

 

 

[Guest A Rose By Any Other Name]

http://www.business-in-asia.com/th_workpermit.html

 

So far as the question re Madam Jim, it would seem a work permit for one location allows working at that location in any capacity.

 

I am sorry but I just don't see that mentioned on the website you gave...? My understanding is that you are given a work permit for one job (such as teaching, or hotel management, or industry supervisor, etc.), but that is ALL you can do. Just because you have a workpermit to manage an internet shop, it does not mean that you can translate documents or even service computers. Certainly, the same must apply with drag performances.

 

If I am wrong, please set me straight, but this is my understanding.

 

The Rose