Burma as a traveler

[Guest MonkeySee]

When I googled "sexual age of consent," the website at www.avert.org states that male to male sex in Burma is illegal. That is the first I had heard of that.

[Guest MonkeySee]

Information about travel in Burma:

 

1. Money situation. Few or no ATM's. Take newer, clean, crisp, undamaged bills. US dollars seem to be the best currency to have, although Euro, Pounds, and Thai baht can be changed. The official exchange rate is about 7 kyats to the US dollar. Most people will change money on the black market (money changers) because they can get around 1160 to the dollar ($100 bill) as of Feb 28, 2008. Remember, this is against the law, but usually no problems. In general, the people are very honest.

 

2. Save ten US dollars to pay your airport exit tax.

 

3. Do research before you go. The lonely planet book on Myanmar is very helpful. There are others, as well. The lonely planet website is also helpful. The travel boards are under thorn tree heading and the website is www.lonelyplanet.com

 

4. Go with the flow because traveling can be slow and rough. The people are sweet, honest, helpful, but shy. Try and spend your money with the locals, instead of the big businesses that are probably government related.

[Nikom]

 

>>1. What is the legal status of gays and of gay sex in Burma? Both technically and practically.

2. What is the legal status of trans-national sex, including what is or could be construed as prostituition?<<

 

What MonkeySee has posted is probably correct. As in India and other places the laws concerning sodomy imposed on the country by the British still remain in effect.

 

Practically, to my knowledge it has never been enforced. I don't know which law, of any, the government uses when children are involved with adults but this is a NO NO, as some law IS used.

 

Several years ago a group of gay westerns who live in Yangon [business men, government, etc.] had a weekly or monthly "meeting" and sometimes would have a "fashion show" of Myanmar boys. This went on for some time and may still be going on. At the time they advertised one of their "shows" a bit too much and they got a visit from a government official who told them "do what you want, but keep it quiet!"

 

There are several web sites within Myanmar that the gay boys use to contact each other. These seem to exist without any interruptions. And there does not seem to be any problems with using Gay DAR and Gay Romeo. Many Myanmar boys are not searching for western contact. They want a lover in the city where they live. There are some though who will act as a guide for you. Offer them a fee and tell them what you are looking for. If they get to know you and see that you have a good heart they may introduce you to one of their friends.

 

There are a number of Westerns living in Yangon with their Myanmar and Thai boyfriends. Lady boys are seen all around everywhere, although not as open as in Thailand. I have travel over much of the country with one or another Myanmar boy [over 20] and stayed in hotel rooms together and there has never been an eye raised.

 

Practically, the government does not really care about what you do as long as you do it quietly, and it does not fall into the field of politics. They WANT tourist money and so will not do anything to discourage travel to the country.

 

To add on to something MonkeySee said. Do your research. There are thousands of web sites about Myanmar travel on the net. Spend some time searching them out!

 

 

 

[Guest Hedda]

Practically, the government does not really care about what you do as long as you do it quietly, and it does not fall into the field of politics. They WANT tourist money and so will not do anything to discourage travel to the country.

 

So come on down and do your share in supporting SE Asia's oldest and most violent dictatorship.

 

I understand that the Burmese authorities are working on an "adopt a political prisoner" program that allows tourists to donate a small amount of money directly to the jailed young man of their choice, so he can buy extra rice. For a little more, you can arrange for discreet conjugal visits with political prisoners, provided you only talk dirty, not politics, during your session. Do what you want, but keep it quiet.

 

 

 

[Guest dave_tf]

I hope that is true about the governement not caring...and continues to be true. The British foreign service reports one European arrested and jailed for engaging in gay sex within the last few years. It makes no mention of gay Burmese similarly punished who might not be valuable to tourism.

 

One could argue both sides about whether it's an ethical decision to visit Burma under any circumstances, but the thought of exposing not only myself but a potential partner to arrest or worse for having a particularly gay time are lines I can't cross.

 

Kudos to Nikom for at least attempting to steer thoughts and conversation away from sex-oriented tourism, and I hope that emphasis is successful. But knowing the legal status of gays and gay sex in a country raises it's own ethical questions for gay travellers and those interested in the people they leave behind.

[Guest LP]

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[Nikom]

 

 

>>The British foreign service reports one European arrested and jailed for engaging in gay sex within the last few years.<<

 

Yes, that fellow is German and was in bed with an 11 year old boy! The last I heard he was still in prison in Myanmar.

 

The story in Yangon is that his arrest came after a request from another western government.

 

 

[Guest dave_tf]

Thanks again for that clarification. Seems odd the Brits would define that crime the way they did.

 

I'm not attempting to derail the discussion, or convince anybody of what they should do. But I do think it's important and prudent to know what the 'law' is in a country one is considering visiting--especially if that country is a totalitarian state. At least one of the readers of the thread did not know. Now they do.

 

 

[KhorTose]

[Hedda, your views on the subject are very well known. What is the point of repeating yourself?

Are you trying to shut down an interesting and informative discussion? Judging from the number of readers of this thread, people would like to learn more about the country. Your cliches and platitudes can hardly substitute a true information.]

 

I've been to Burma. Yangoon, Mandalay, Bagan and Mt. Poppa when you still had to have a guide. I kept my ears open and my mouth shut and contributed as little as I could to that totally corrupt government. Because I've been there, I totally agree with Hedda's post, in the hopes that it will remind everyone to do the same. Yes, go to Burma, but research first so that the hotel you stay in is not government owned (All the hotels in the old Bagan are government owned) So stay in the new Bagan in a less fancy hotel that is not on the river, etc.

Eat at local resturants, buy at the local market, be nice to others, and you will meet many others who speak English--especially in Mandalay. Yes, have a BF, but get to know him and others well enough to talk polictics and maybe you will leave Burma with a greater understanding that these are very good people living under a very bad government that surpresses them at every junction. I know I have done everything I can to oppose this government, since I returned from Burma. I know I will always remember some of the fine and brave people who told me just how bad it is. This maybe truly the world's worst government. So have a good time, but please--if you care about people--make every effort not to contribute to thier pain and suffering.

 

[Guest LP]

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[KhorTose]

OK--be more specific.

1. I was not persecuted but treated very well by both government and non-government people.

2. I suffered only in the sense that empathy for others who are hurting makes you hurt.

3. Yes go to Burma--by all means. Just try not to give any money to the government.

A. Don't trade money at government rates. This is only country where I recommend the black market. No not on the street, but see your local Chinese Jeweler. Burma kicked many Indians out of the country years ago and their place was often taken by Chinese Merchants. You get a great exchange rate.

B. Stay at no hotels in old Bagan. They are all owned or silent partners of the Generals. Know that Burma turned down a grant to preserve the monuments and temples at Bagan by the UN, only to have the government refuse the money and rebuild the temples. What you are looking at is mostly new, not old or preserved. Then they moved all the people who lived in old Bagan and built new hotels on their land and made them move where they can get no tourist business. So go to new Bagan and stay there and help--what is now--a poor village.

C. Stay at no five or four star hotels. Even the hotel chains have to have one of the generals as a partner.

4. Do Eat at night at local markets and smile at everyone. I will bet you that someone who speaks English will strike up a conversation with you.

5. Do get to know one Burmese really well, and he/she will introduce you to others and you will get the picture of the real Burma. I did not feel this way before I went to Burma. I do now.

6. Do see the temples and do go to the shops where so many fine things are made and can be purchased for such a low price. Shops--silver, those beautifull wall hanging you see in Thailand, silk, beautiful lacquerware, imperial jade, gemstones, wood carving, etc.

7. Do check out many of the nunneries--as many women in Burma are nuns. The monasteries are interesting--but receive plenty of money. The nunneries where many young girls live and go to school could really use donations and help. Nuns are very rare in the Buddhist world. They are just making a comeback in China. Taiwan has some, but Burma has the greatest percentage.

8. Also unique, and to me a must, is to go to Mt. Poppa and see the home of the Nats, or how we explain homosexuality in Burma. It is facinating place. Watch out for the monkeys, they do bite.

I firmly believe you can have a good time in Burma and, at the same time, help out the Burmese people without enriching their corrupt government. Yes, you may have to make some sacrifices, but to me it is worth it

[Guest Hedda]

"Hedda, your views on the subject are very well known. What is the point of repeating yourself ? Are you trying to shut down an interesting and informative discussion ?"

NO, dear, if there's anyone trying to shut something down, it's your objection to allowing someone to post the other side of the Burma story: how tourism may be aiding and abetting Burma's ruthless generals in exploiting their own people.

 

Frankly, your glowing tales of the enriching wonders of touring Burma, including the joys of the gay sex that's available there, hardly present an accurate or complete picture of what it's like to live under the fist of the world's most repressive regimes. Do you object to being reminded that the Burma that you enjoy so much, is in fact, an imprisoned nation with no civil liberties, brutal oppression and grinding poverty.

 

Have you ever considered for one moment the possibility that your travel logs in promoting tourism to Burma might be aiding and abetting a truly ruthless government in exploiting its own people ? Or do you simply not worry about beng complicit in such things when you're fancy-free on holiday ?

 

No doubt, you probably would have thought that touring Die Shone Deutschland in 1938 was a delightful idea too. All those lovely castles and friendly, fun-loving locals drinking beer !

[Bob]

Returning to your grand and prior form, Hedda? If you've been to Burma, tell us your experiences; otherwise, your "dear" paternalistic broadsides are a bit tiring.

 

There are many who think that traveling to Burma and buying goods at the little stalls and restaurants is supportive of the Burmese people; others don't (they see it only as somehow lining the pockets of the dictators). I've been across the border at Mae Sae a couple of times and bought a few items within the touristy shopping area (about a 2 block square area consisting of various stalls that appear to be manned by less than the elite) and I personally don't see any harm at all in doing that. I also spent a week in Luang Prabang amongst the lovely Laos and found them very warm and compelling (and, by all appearances, they didn't give a hoot about the little dictators running that country).

 

Similarly, some people advocate boycotting the Chinese Olympics to protest Chinese failure to clamp down on Burma and/or to protest other Chinese excesses (e.g., Tibet). But a fair number of people, myself included, believe that the goodwill and people-to-people contacts of the Olympics does more to help change Chinese society than not showing up and posting a protest on an internet forum. Nothing wrong with the latter exercise but it doesn't accomplish much.

[Guest Hedda]

Returning to your grand and prior form, Hedda? If you've been to Burma, tell us your experiences; otherwise, your "dear" paternalistic broadsides are a bit tiring.

 

I wouldn't tour Burma while this despotic government is in power, any more than I toured South Africa when a despotic white rascist government was imposing apartheid. If that's what you like to call "paternalism", I'll take the rap any day.

 

We can disagree on the degree to which tourism aids brutal regimes in Burma or anywhere else, but that doesn't mean that those of us who urge withholding our tourism money have to sit mute while folks like Nikom extol the pleasures of visiting what is essentially an imprisoned nation.

 

I wasn't the one who suggested that anyone with a view contrary about tourism stifle themselves. I was simply providing the alternative viewpoint, one that's reflected by many dissidents in Burma itself, that there are more than enough places on this planet to enjoy without subsidizing Burma's criminal rulers with tourism revenues. The fact that some may consider this "tiring" is unfortunate but hardly reason for silence by those who see it as a compelling cause for promoting "tourism with a conscience."

[Bob]

No, I was referring to your use of the word "dear" which, unfortunately, has been an old habit.

 

I understand your point but to suggest the guy is "complicit" with a brutal regime because he toured Burma isn't any more fair than suggesting my trip to Luang Prabang helped promote communism. We all oppose the Burmese regime (and, I hope, the Lao regime) but their are fair differences of opinion as to how to express that opposition. Isolation (North Korea, Cuba, etc.) in my opinion has historically proven to be very unsuccessful in changing anything (except to assist keeping the citizens poor, distressed, and ignorant of what's happening in the bulk of the world).

[Guest Hedda]

No, I was referring to your use of the word "dear" which, unfortunately, has been an old habit.

Thanks goodness I didn't say "good morning." Your computer might have crashed ! I have to admit that waving that "dear" works better than flagging a bull.

 

Obviously, there are degrees of different opinions on virtually everything that's controversial. No doubt, sanctions won't work very well against a country like Burma when neighboring countries like Thailand do their best to flaunt them. Same thing goes for Cuba, where every one in the world has been ignoring the US sanctions for 40 years.

 

On the other hand, sanctions and divestment in S. Africa applied enormous pressure for change there. I just think folks who profess to genuinely admire the Burmese people should not be carrying on their our own "to hell with sanctions" gay tourism promotions for that poor and bloodied nation.

[dapitt]

I wouldn't tour Burma while this despotic government is in power, any more than I toured South Africa when a despotic white rascist government was imposing apartheid.

 

So, in other words you have no first-hand knowledge at all, unlike several other posters to this thread who have made some comprehensive and informative postings based their personal on-site observations.

 

Isolation (North Korea, Cuba, etc.) in my opinion has historically proven to be very unsuccessful in changing anything (except to assist keeping the citizens poor, distressed, and ignorant of what's happening in the bulk of the world).

Excellent point Bob! I'm in agreement.

 

[payless]

Where in Thailand is Burma? Can anybody give info about vacationing in Haiiti please?

 

[Gaybutton]

Where in Thailand is Burma? Can anybody give info about vacationing in Haiiti please?

 

If we are discussing Burma on this thread, despite the fact that this is the Thailand forum, does that present some sort of a problem for you? We've left it on this forum because it is obviously generating a great deal of interest.

 

In Thailand, you'll find Burma in the north and west, where the Karen hill tribes live. They're Burmese. As far as vacationing in "Haiiti," I know of no such place.

[Nikom]

 

Myanmar Notes

 

a. From reading some of the responses on this forum it appears that many have not been to Myanmar, or has not been there recently. A little back ground:

Somewhere around 1994-1996 the government started selling off all of the property that a previous government had seized. They also changed the law about who could own what and where. This brought about two changes related to tourism. Most hotels and restaurants were sold to private persons and companies. While many of the upper class hotels were bought by families related or connected to the government, many were not. The government has retain one or two major hotels at most of the beaches, mountain resorts, etc. The second change has been a proliferation of new small restaurants, hotels and guest houses all over the country owned by the new growing middle class. [it is this group that has been pushing for change within their own country.]

Because of these changes you can now move about the country and sleep and eat in local places that are not owned by any government officials.

 

b. Yangon is no longer a small city on the river. Since 2001 the size of the city has doubled every two years. Hundreds of people from all over the country has crowed into the city creating a real melting pot of the various ethnic groups. There are high-rise building all over the city and more being built. Some really nice new condos too!

There is a ‘Circle Train’ that is popular with tourist. It leaves from the main station in Yangon and circles most of the town north of the river. The first time I took this train it went through several forests and rice fields, etc. Now you go through the growing suburbs of Yangon!

Take your passport with you when you go to get your ticket for the circle train. They just take your number and give you a ticket. I forgot the price but not expensive. The train is packed with market people carrying everything under the sun to or from the market. Tourist are often put in the car with the young train policemen. So sweet in their uniforms which they often change right there on the train with you watching. Catch one of their eyes while they are changing their clothes and smile and see what happens!

 

c. There are several amusement parks in and around Yangon. There is one outside of town to the east that has many rides and a large swimming pool that the Myanmar boys all like. The pool attendants are all gay and run into the changing rooms when new boys arrive to change! There is also one near the Shwedagon named Happy World. It is a great place to visit to see local people at play. And a good place to meet people.

 

d. Myanmar money: A couple of posters referred to the “black market”. In many countries this refers to an illegal money transaction that can result in arrest, etc. There is no Black Market in Myanmar; just a duel money system. Both operate openly and freely, all over he country. For

 

e. As several posters have noted. Get to know the people. It is true that the first time in Myanmar that there are so many world famous temples to see but you will soon get ‘templed - out’. Find a friend and see the country from their eyes.

Use the internet to contact boys in Myanmar before you go. Just tell them you want to hire them as a guide to show you around. They will introduce you to their friends. I once had a driver who brought his 21 year old son along on a trip to stay with me so I would not be ‘lonely’!

Whenever you see a boy looking at you, SMILE! The language of Southeast Asia! If you are in J Donut, or Mr. Brown they are probably students. If you smile they will giggle and turn their heads but be back looking at you in a second. Visits some of the small restaurants and coffee shops out near the University!

Talk to your waiter at the hotel. Show him your key with the number. He knows this sign. Often he or his friend will visit your room later in the night. You can ask him also if he has a brother or friend who can walk with you during the day to see the sights.

The only problem with meeting people is their shyness about trying to speak English, but are willing to try if you make the contact first.

 

 

 

[Guest LP]

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[Guest MonkeySee]

Nikom wrote:

. Myanmar money: A couple of posters referred to the “black market”. In many countries this refers to an illegal money transaction that can result in arrest, etc. There is no Black Market in Myanmar; just a duel money system. Both operate openly and freely, all over he country

 

This is news to me. When I was in Myanmar last month, my Myanmar friends told me changing money on the "black market" was against the law. Of course it is widespread and everyone does it. When I changed money on Mahabandoola Road by Sule Pagoda, the money changer took me to a tea shop because he did not want the police to see us. Another changer took me to his storefront. I believe money changing in places other than the state-run banks is illegal. I believe the police do not usually make arrests, but instead take a commission from the money changer, if caught.

[Nikom]

MonkeySee wrote:

This is news to me. When I was in Myanmar last month, my Myanmar friends told me changing money on the "black market" was against the law. Of course it is widespread and everyone does it. When I changed money on Mahabandoola Road by Sule Pagoda, the money changer took me to a tea shop because he did not want the police to see us. Another changer took me to his storefront. I believe money changing in places other than the state-run banks is illegal. I believe the police do not usually make arrests, but instead take a commission from the money changer, if caught.

 

 

Reply:

There are three different thing involved with changing money. There is a dual money system in that there is the “official” rate of exchange, and the unofficial rate of exchange. When you exchange money at your hotel, or at any licensed money exchanger in the country as in the Central Hotel or in Aung San Market the unofficial rate is used. These are government licensed exchanges! When you give a large US dollar bill to an attendant at a national park or historical area they give you change based on the unofficial rate! This unofficial rate fluctuates daily just like any exchange rate and is announced each day in the news media. To my knowledge this system has never been challenged by the government.

 

When changing money on the street the unofficial rate is still used although if you bargain you will find one slightly in your favor. The reasons you were taken into a tea shop is related to first, concern for you and the changer, and second, related a different law, and not one concerning the exchange of money. People in Myanmar are genuinely concerned about your safety, and theirs. You just gave them a large US bill and they have given you a whole pile of Kyat. It is best for both of you not to let everyone on the street to see what is taking place. The other reason, the main reason, for the tea shop is that there is a law that is at times enforced or as noted a commission demanded. This law says that only business and people licensed can have in their possession any currency from outside the country. Thus the tea shop is for the exchanger’s security!

[Nikom]

Several people have asked for a general guide of what to see in Myanmar. It is my own. Others I am sure have good ones too!

 

 

A Mini Tourist Guide to Myanmar

 

There are two major places to visit in Myanmar. Two places that everyone should see during their life on this earth!

 

1. The Shwedagon Paya A Buddhist shrine, temple, wat, seated on a hill overlooking the City of Yangon that some claim is over 2500 years old. Probably started in the 6th century its great golden dome can be seen for miles. For Myanmar Buddhist it is a the most sacred Buddhist site of all. Everyone hopes to visit the Shwedagon at least once during their life. Large groups of Buddhist from Thailand and other SE Asia countries travel each year to Myanmar just to visit and pray here. Rather like Mecca for Muslims.

 

2. Bagan A small 42 sq km plain on the banks of the Areyarwady River is filled with over 4400 temples, some Buddhist and some Hindu. Started in 1044 by King Anawrahta, almost all of the following kings built more temples and shrines. From several of the taller temple you can look out over mile and miles of shrines. Bagan is said to rival Angkor Wat.

 

 

Other places of interest for the history and culture of Myanmar:

 

Yangon, the former capital, is the business, trade and banking center of the country. Many interesting temples and sites to be visited. Perhaps two days is enough. This is where you meet people and where more people speak English.

 

Mandalay its self is of little historical interest, with the exception of the royal palace. However, near by the city are the ruins of several previous royal cities. Mandalay is currently the center of increasing trade from China and India. A visit across the Areyarwady River to Mingun, another royal capital is required. The trip over the river and back is fascinating, as is the ruins at Mingun. When you leave the boat and walk up to the main road you will turn right to reach the ruins. If you turn left a walk a bit you will see on your left an art gallery that has a sign saying something like, “Tourist Stop”, Visitors Rest”. There is at times an art school in training there and the teacher and the students will give you a warm welcome and a nice rest!

 

Inle lake is a lake high up in the mountain and surrounded by mountains. The people here are of a different nationality than the Shan who live nearby. All of the transportation to the villages is by the lake. You will see the school boat taking students to school, rice boats, cattle boats, etc. In addition to the lake itself many man-made canals have been constructed to connect even more villages. You hire a guide and his boat and he will take you to the various markets, temples, and villages. You will often see people swimming in the canals, some clothed and some not!

 

The beaches in Myanmar have not been, yet, over built or over run. Ngapali Beach on the bay of Bengal has a whole row of small beach cottages or small motel type hotels along the coast. All very laid back. Many local owned restaurants along the road connecting the beach hotels. Most of the tourist here are Asian. Chaung Tha Beach is more rustic, even more laid back and less crowded. This is where most of the local folk from Yangon go because it is less that an day’s bus ride. Ngapali is a two day drive. For tourist going to Ngapali it is best to fly.

 

To cover all of this you will need about three weeks for a good trip to Myanmar. Most first time visitors do two weeks but do not cover all of the above.

 

 

 

[Nikom]

 

Myanmar: Want to help bring about change?

 

Currently the middle class in Myanmar is growing. There are new business opening all over the country. Cities are growing. Many citizens go to Singapore and Malaysia to work for a few years, save their money and return to start a business.

 

It is the middle class in any country that brings about lasting change. It starts small, grows, and then starts pushing for change.

 

For those tourist truly interested in helping to bring about a change in government in Myanmar here are some ideas.

 

1. Adopt a school. Schools are poorly funded and the staffs work out of dedication. Ask your driver, or friend, or guide to take you to visit a school. Visit the school several times and get to know the staff. The best way to help the school is to take the headmaster or a teacher on a ‘shopping trip for educational materials’.

One of the primary centers in Yangon to buy educational supplies is Bogyoke Aung San Rd to the west of the Central Hotel. The street venders sell about everything educational here. If you go down the side streets of this area you will see textbooks being made, and sold. If you spend only 20.00US you will be surprised about how much you can buy for the school. And this will be more than the school has ever received.

 

2. Adopt a student. School tuitions vary but about 30.00US will pay a student’s tuition for the whole year. For senior high schools the fees plus books are about 100 to 150US.

Currently I pay the school fees for a primary student in Mandalay, the university fees for a student in Yangon. I paid the fees for a high school student for two years and he won many honors for his work and is now attending school in another Asian country.

 

3. Start a business for a boy, or his family. Make him independent and teach him business.

To start a tea shop for a friend costs about 100US to get started. Another 100 puts it on a good foundation. The same for a rice shop. Three years ago I give a friend money to start a rice shop. It has now doubled in size and he has brought his aunt into the business too! AND of course I get free tea at ‘my’ tea shop too!

 

4. If you find a new restaurant or small hotel owned by local people advertise it on the internet. Help bring them business and help keep tourists informed of non-government places to stay and eat.