Uncut Only - Germany Rules Against Jews & Muslims

[Guest FourAces]

This feels like something from another era. Like Germany took a huge step backward.

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BERLIN (Reuters) - Hundreds of German Jews and Muslims held a joint rally in Berlin on Sunday demanding that their "freedom of religion" be respected, in a rare show of unity to protest against a court order that banned ritual circumcisions.

The June ruling by a court in Cologne has sparked an emotive debate about religious freedom in a country which is sensitive to any accusations of intolerance because of its Nazi past.

Although the ban applied only to the Cologne region, doctors across the country have refused to carry out operations because of what they say is a risk of legal action.

Some 300 Muslim and Jewish protestors and their supporters gathered together at Berlin's Bebelplatz square, known as the site of the infamous Nazi book burning ceremony.

They waved banners reading "Foreskin? No Thank you", or "Finally, Germany is a colonial power again" against a cartoon image of a boy whose foreskin was the colors of the German flag. Some came wrapped in the Israeli flag.

"We were getting sick and tired of all the heated and incompetent gibberish on circumcisions," Lala Suesskind, the former head of Berlin's Jewish community, told Reuters.

"So today, we want to clarify a few things through our rabbi ... what circumcision really is and what circumcision means to our religion," she added.

Jewish religious practice requires boys to be circumcised from eight days old, while for Muslims, the age at which it is carried out varies according to family, country and branch of Islam.

Berlin last week became the first of Germany's 16 states to protect the practice, saying that doctors could legally circumcise infant boys for religious reasons.

The national government is working on a new law to legalize the operation across the country in order to overrule the Cologne decision.

"The German government must introduce a law which will result in circumcisions remaining exempt from punishment," said the head of Germany's Turkish community, Kenan Kolat.

"For years, we have had the abortion debate. Abortion too is a physical intervention and there too, laws have been passed which make certain acts exempt from punishment, combined with counseling. Here too, there can be counseling so that people get informed," Kolat said.

The speed with which national lawmakers agreed in July to pass a new law underscored their sensitivity to charges of intolerance and discrimination, especially against Jews because of the Holocaust perpetrated by the Nazis during World War Two.

Chancellor Angela Merkel said Germany risked becoming a "laughing stock" if Jews were not allowed to practise their rituals.

About 120,000 Jews are registered as living in Germany along with around 4 million Muslims, many of whom are from Turkey.

Ruling in the case of a Muslim boy who suffered bleeding after circumcision, the Cologne court said the practice inflicted bodily harm and should not be carried out on young boys, though could be practised on older males with consent.

[caeron]

Color me radical, but letting people ritually maim their children seems like a good thing for the state to stop.

It will get overturned, but I wish it wouldn't.

[Guest hitoallusa]

The majority of Jews and Muslims has been circumcised without any problem. I think it is a problem of implementing a proper medical procedure or setting a guideline for safe circumcision. I got my circumcision when I was a teenager and the doctor who operated on me was not friendly and abusive in words. My scar didn't heal properly as a result of it. It was a humiliating experience for me. My parents circumcised me not because of religious reasons but because that's what most people did at that time. It was allegedly believed that circumcision is good for men and Women also benefit from it since they get less HPV infections and etc...

[TownsendPLocke]

I am THRILLED some brave souls are trying to end the ritualized mutilation of infant boys. If ANY religion would require the removal of the little finger of all newborn childen the screech of outrage would be deafening, But because this part of the body is considered"unclean" it is deemed allowable.

The matter of course non-consensual profit center that circumcission has become in US hospitals is sickening, EVERY male should tell the doctors that they do NOT want their infant mutilated-and that they will file a malpractice suit if it happens.

[TampaYankee]

I'm surprised and even a bit horrified that Germany with its history would step up to enforce state mandated edicts on the heart of the Jewish culture. They did this once not so long ago and got a real world-wide black eye for it. I'm surprised they are stepping up to try again.

Personally, I favor not cutting male infants but it is central to some cultures and I favor not stepping on cultural identity, up to a point.

[Guest FourAces]

I so strongly disagree with several of you guys.

First to have the center of the Jewish holocaust legislate Jewish tradition (and Muslim) is like spitting in the face of all those who died to simply practice their religious beliefs.

And to use words like mutilate makes me cringe. Millions of non Jewish and Muslim babies are circumcised routinely. any heath professionals feel this is the best route to take. And yes others disagree but its not as if these babies are being sent to the local Chinese eatery to get their foreskin chopped off.

Don't confused sexual preference with religious freedom. Don't confuse the Nazi oops I mean German courts decision as acting in the best interest of the people. Unconfused yourselves.

[lookin]

Every once in a while, say every century or so, I don't think it would hurt organized religions to sit down and take a good look at the things they think God has told them to do and figure out if the current list is still a pretty good reflection of how God wants them to live their lives.

I wonder if circumcision would still make the cut, you should pardon the expression. There might even be one or two other things that could drop off the list.

. . .

On the other hand, they could also take a fresh look at some of the old standbys written with the finger of God, like "Thou Shalt Not Kill" which seems to have lost a lot of its luster in the last few millenia and might be due for a comeback.

Maybe it's just me, but a guy who thumps his chest about the right to get his kid clipped and then goes upstairs and shtupps the nanny, or lobs a bomb at a school bus in the name of God, seems to have a screw loose somewhere.

[Guest EXPAT]

Every once in a while, say every century or so, I don't think it would hurt organized religions to sit down and take a good look at the things they think God has told them to do and figure out if the current list is still a pretty good reflection of how God wants them to live their lives.

I couldn't agree more. if people realized that all of these "religious ideals" are created by man's interpretation of religion first of all, maybe they would think twice about always falling behind the religious argument as a defense. it is after all perpetuating a man's interpretation anyway on and on, which of course is their right but it may not be the right or practical thing to do.

[Guest FourAces]

Let me try it this way ... I do NOT believe in the Roe V Wade ruling. But I DO support a womans right of choice.

I do not think any court, especially a German court should tell Jews and Muslims its not OK to circumcise ... but I believe in ones right to chose.

[AdamSmith]

FourAces, I get your point. Other side might be, who gets to CHOOSE for those individuals who grow up to personhood and discover -- what the fuck was this physical (UNLIKE any religious or otherwise reversible) choice my parents made for me, before I had any possibility of my own choosing of course of life?

[Guest FourAces]

[JKane]

Color me radical, but letting people ritually maim their children seems like a good thing for the state to stop.

It will get overturned, but I wish it wouldn't.

I agree with this 100%. One person's imaginary friend in the sky should have no place in ritual mutilation of a population. We are aghast at "female circumcision" when performed for the exact same reasons! And the way circumcision is practiced by some ultra-orthodox sects of Judaism is horrible and has caused deaths!

That said, there are medical reasons to do it and that is the setting it should be done under, so I absolutely support the Berlin decision and think that should be the standard. IF it passes "first do no harm" in discussion between a family and their doctor it is, of course, not only fine but many would say good.

But religion should not be the deciding factor. I'm sorry, but arguing for that is not far from arguing for ex-gay "therapy" up to and including chemical castration (or not too long ago lobotomizing) of gay children should be allowed if that particular parent's religion "instructs them" it is god's will!