For you Proper English lovers. . .

[Guest EXPAT]

This is so true and funny. . .

[JKane]

This is a great site and the grammar reference is really damn useful.

And the Pterodactyl song is stuck in my head now!

[Guest CharliePS]

Damn it! "For you proper English lovers" should be "For you lovers of proper English."

("Proper"=adj.exhibiting respectable behavior; "English"=adj.native to the southern part of Britain; "Lovers"=n.those in a romantic relationship)

[Guest EXPAT]

Damn it! "For you proper English lovers" should be "For you lovers of proper English."

("Proper"=adj.exhibiting respectable behavior; "English"=adj.natives of the southern part of Britain; "Lovers"=n.those in a romantic relationship)

LOL -- good boy

[RA1]

My favorite is the grocery line that states "less than 10 items". I have "too often" used a magic marker to "change" those signs to read, " fewer than 10 items". Now, it seems that I have a reputation among grocers and family members for these feats.

Best regards,

RA1

[RA1]

Additonally, I have sent emails to radio programs that state, an update in less than 30 minutes. I have no problem with less than one half an hour or fewer than 30 minutes but I DO have a problem with their "ordinary" statement. So far, they have not responded OR changed their rhetoric.

Best regards,

RA1

[lookin]

So far, they have not responded OR changed their rhetoric.

Should that be 'NOR changed their rhetoric'?

There are times when I use language that I know is incorrect, just because it feels so weird* to say the proper version.

For example, "It is I." sounds so Margaret Thatcher that I just can't bring myself to do it.

But maybe that's just me.

* So much for 'i' before 'e' except after 'c'.

[AdamSmith]

Damn it! "For you proper English lovers" should be "For you lovers of proper English."

Madam, that is the sort of thing up with which I will not put.

"Proper English lovers" is ambiguous but not technically erroneous, surely?

A hyphen between "proper" and "English" would remove the ambiguity but then we would have to answer to Fowler's well considered diatribe against all but the most essential use of what he termed that "regrettable necessity."

[MsGuy]

Should that be 'NOR changed their rhetoric'?

Hmmmm...

nor

   /nɔr; unstressed nər/ Show Spelled[nawr; unstressed ner]

conjunction

1.

(used in negative phrases, especially after neither, to introduce the second member in a series, or any subsequent member): Neither he nor I will be there. They won't wait for you, nor for me, nor for anybody.

2.

(used to continue the force of a negative, as not, no, never, etc., occurring in a preceding clause): He left and I never saw him again, nor did I regret it.

3.

(used after an affirmative clause, or as a continuative, in the sense of and not ): They are happy, nor need we worry.

4.

Older Use . than.

5.

Archaic . (used without a preceding neither, the negative force of which is understood): He nor I was there.

----

Dear Schoolmarm:

Aren't you arguing for elevating the 5th (archaic) usuage over a more current form?

[MsGuy]

Damn, AS and I jumped you at the same time, Lookin. That's bullying so I feel oblighed to tender my apology.

[MsGuy]

Actually I kind of like the sound of "Proper English Lovers." Sounds like the title of one of those Barbara Cartland bodice rippers* my mother used to read.

*hyphen omitted in deference to AS's sensiblities.

[AdamSmith]

There are times when I use language that I know is incorrect, just because it feels so weird* to say the proper version.

Likewise. In high school editing the newspaper, then in several jobs editing others' writing, I have followed a hodgepodge of the style books of AP, NYT and WSJ (and sometimes, for archness and just plain fun, The Economist). But my prime directive has always been: does it sound right?

E.g., Richard Lederer points out that "don't split the participle" is a rule from Latin, where it makes sense, that got dragged into English for no good reason.

I was glad to read that, as I had detested that rule forever, and had been ignoring it ever since I could get away with it.

[AdamSmith]

Damn, AS and I jumped you at the same time, Lookin. That's bullying so I feel oblighed to tender my apology.

Actually I jumped Charlie.

Care to join me?

[AdamSmith]

P.S. We will not speak of that stillbirth known as The Chicago Manual of Style.

[MsGuy]

Richard Lederer points out that "don't split the participle" is a rule from Latin, where it makes sense, that got dragged into English for no good reason.

I read somewhere umpteen years ago that the the early English grammarians innocently carried over the rule from Latin grammar because that was the only analytic scheme they they had available to them.

Personally I suspect the old buggers were making a deliberate choice to differentiate the language of the educated classes from that used by the vulgar masses.

[MsGuy]

Actually I jumped Charlie.

Care to join me?

Only if I can be on top.

[lookin]

Dear Schoolmarm:

Aren't you arguing for elevating the 5th (archaic) usuage over a more current form?

I found the (possibly errant) constructs on this page for ESL students.

Neither … nor

'Neither … nor' is used in sentences in a negative sense meaning "not this one nor the other, not this nor that, not he nor she, etc.". Verb conjugation depends on the subject (singular or plural) closest to the conjugated verb.

The author, though, may just be blowing linguistic smoke; hence, the question mark in my post. As an undergraduate, I was the only engineering student in my creative writing class so I learned early to defer to the cognoscenti, among whom I count the posters in this thread.

When it comes to my own mother tongue,

I have barely attained the first rung.

If the putative NOR

Should, in fact, remain OR,

I'll leave up to the scholarly young.

[AdamSmith]

Only if I can be on top.

NP! Cf. your "twink sandwich" observation some time back. Who (not "whom" ) do ye think was in the middle?

P.S. Hitoallusa, you're invited too! ... Choose your position carefully; this is becoming a club sandwich.

[lookin]

Hmmmm...

nor

   /nɔr; unstressed nər/ phrases, especially after neither, to introduce the second member in a series, or any subsequent member): Neither he nor I will be there. They won't wait for you, nor for me, nor for anybody.

2.

(used to continue the force of a negative, as not, no, never, etc., occurring in a preceding clause): He left and I never saw him again, nor did I regret it.

3.

(used after an affirmative clause, or as a continuative, in the sense of and not ): They are happy, nor need we worry.

4.

Older Use . than.

5.

Archaic . (used without a preceding neither, the negative force of which is understood): He nor I was there.

----

Dear Schoolmarm:

Aren't you arguing for elevating the 5th (archaic) usuage over a more current form?

I'd humbly suggest your number 2 might better apply than the allegedly archaic number 5, as RA1's sentiment was nothing if not forceful.

Not that I have any qualms about lobbing in something archaic given the slightest opportunity. In fact, your use of the word encouraged me to find this website.

Mayhap you'll enjoy it!

[Guest hitoallusa]

Oh my I'm so far away from proper English I have someone who re-writes everything I wrote so sometimes I look at the final product and say "Did I write this?" Anyways, AS, I just want one love so not interested in Club Sandwich unless I get a ring. Lol..

NP! Cf. your "twink sandwich" observation some time back. Who (not "whom" ) do ye think was in the middle?

P.S. Hitoallusa, you're invited too! ... Choose your position carefully; this is becoming a club sandwich.

[Guest CharliePS]

Should that be 'NOR changed their rhetoric'?

There are times when I use language that I know is incorrect, just because it feels so weird* to say the proper version.

For example, "It is I." sounds so Margaret Thatcher that I just can't bring myself to do it.

But maybe that's just me.

* So much for 'i' before 'e' except after 'c'.

Whenever I receive a phone call which begins, "is this [Charlie]?" I always respond, "I am he." There is usually a noticeable hesitation before the caller continues the conversation.

[Guest CharliePS]

The headline on the sports section of my local paper today was "Lion's star centers life around golf." I defy a geometrician to "center" anything "around" anything.

[AdamSmith]

"Center around" is as annoying, and as ubiquitous, as the misuse of "comprise" for "compose" and vice versa. Even many periodicals that supposedly employ copy editors seem rife with that gaffe.

[Guest CharliePS]

An opinion article in the same paper today contained the word "inexplicitly," which threw me. Implicitly? No, that didn't work in context. I suspect he meant something like "without explanation." The writer was an attorney, a member of the ABA committee that screened Robert Bork for the Supreme Court nomination, so perhaps the obfuscation was deliberate.