Guest JBee Posted November 18, 2007 Posted November 18, 2007 News articles from around the world are focused on Thailand and Pattaya on a consistent basis. Recent events had done nothing to change the image that Pattaya is a pedophile haven. It is obvious to anything that the entire structure of Pattaya is in support of this disease. The message boards allow for the promotion of the bars that hire the boys. One poster after another talks about Sunee Plaza and all the great bars in the Plaza. Few talk about how every bar in the area has underage boys working there. Not one exception. Having spent 15 plus years in Thailand and been to every bar there, there is not one bar at one time or another that doesn’t hire and sell underage. The definition of underage may depend what you classify as illegal but 15-18 is considered illegal and there is no bar that doesn’t either employ them or allow them in with farangs who employ them. Every message board not only allows these posts but the readership seems to flaunt the fact that the area is cleaning up and even though they don’t hire the ones underage, they love hanging out in the area for companionship. That is simply a way to rationalize the support they have for the area. If you participate in the area's employment of the underage, you are just as guilty as the one who hires. The bars in the area all have under 18 either on stage or available right outside the door and you ask the manger for a younger guy they will arrange it. However you put it, if you go to the Plaza you are supporting pedophilia. The police are also on the take and as long as payments are made, they look the other way. When the big police come to town, all the boys disperse as all the bars have been informed in advance. Posters here and on all the boards talk about how empty every bar is when the "big" police are in town and how boring the Plaza is on that particular night. No ones hands are clean. The owners and moderators of this site and all the gay message boards, the owners of the bar, the customers who go to the area, the men in blue who look the other way, the posters who keep promoting the bars in the area as the next great thing. All of this is not needed and not necessary. The insanity should stop. Stop rationalizing that you don’t participate if you only go to the area to eat or drink with friends. Stop saying you don’t hire but your friends do and you don’t ask questions. Stop telling everyone the area is cleaned up when only paint and new furniture is added. The boys are still there. The kids are still sniffing glue. The young one are still being taken advantage of. And yes, everyone who goes to Sunee has to take a part of the responsibly for this.
Gaybutton Posted November 18, 2007 Posted November 18, 2007 The owners and moderators of this site and all the gay message boards, the owners of the bar, the customers who go to the area, the men in blue who look the other way, the posters who keep promoting the bars in the area as the next great thing. In the words of the great Col. Sherman T. Potter, "Horse hockey!" You are entitled to your opinion, but as a moderator of this board I don't recall posting anything saying that Sunee Plaza is all cleaned up. I have posted, however, that the under-age boy problem isn't confined to just Sunee Plaza. It's not our fault that these bars hire under-age boys. In my opinion, it becomes our fault if we start calling the under-age boys to sit with us, buy drinks for them, give money to them, and "off" them. Those same bars also have plenty of boys who are at least age 18. If there is any doubt in someone's mind as to the age of the boy, then it's easy to check his ID card. If the boy comes up with some excuse as to why he has no ID card available, then that's when to say so long to the boy. You're complaining and accusing the wrong people. I see no reason not to patronize any bar one wishes, provided that the customer sticks to boys at least 18 years old. You need to take your complaint to those who are in control, such as the police, the mayor's office, the governor's office, and to the bar owners themselves. A message board has no control over the situation, nor does its owners or moderators. I'd love for the buck to stop here. If that was possible then the situation really would have been cleaned up long ago. But since there is no way for the buck to stop here, then we only pass it along to where it can stop. We report about the bars themselves, what they're like, costs for drinks and "off" fees, etc. We do not try to organize boycotts or campaigns to 'clean up' the area. It would be an exercise in futility. Only the customers themselves have the ability to control which bars they patronize and which boys they seek. The boards have no ability to become surrogate police. We do allow bars to promote themselves and we allow posts that promote them, often knowing full well that these are bars that hire under-age boys. We're not here to try to shut down bars that hire under-age boys. We're here to warn people of the consequences of engaging in sex with under-age boys and people have to make their own decisions. We have no intention of taking a stance that says, in effect, "let's destroy the gay bars in Pattaya in order to save them." Based on your post, that is my interpretation of what you would like us to try to do. Sorry, you won't get cooperation from us in that regard. If you want to be self righteous, tell us we're rationalizing if we do not share your opinion, or blame us, in part or entirely, for the situation regarding under-age boys in Sunee Plaza or anywhere else, go right ahead. Those, however, are accusations I do not accept.
Guest wowpow Posted November 18, 2007 Posted November 18, 2007 I don't patronize bars that employ underage guys. I do not think that it is a wise or moral thing to do. In fact I very rarely visit Sunee Plaza or any bar anywhere that I have seen employing underage. I am generally against censorship but I would be quite happy for all gay Thailand forums to ban mention of bars that are well known for illegally employing underage staff. I see a lot of truth in JBee statement and no inference that he wants all gay bars in Pattaya closed. It is true that there is little that one can do except vote with one's feet. Pederasty in Thailand gives all Gays, who live or visit, a bad name Internationally.
Guest Posted November 18, 2007 Posted November 18, 2007 I have never thought boycotting Sunnee Plaza is the answer to the problems there. There are good bars that do not employ underage boys. Come In Bar and Top Man are just 2 examples. The old Memories would not employ them or allow them in and very very strict. I haven't been to the new Memories so I don't know their policy. Posters are allowed to post on any bar they want. It is a place for debate and conversation. As long as the conversations don't get out of hand, we don't stop them. There are younger guys employed in all areas of Pattaya and Boyztown is not exempt. There are less there than Sunnee but you can still see them from time to time. I don't think messages should be censored because of what area they are in or what bar they are discussing. I also don't think everyone that walks into Sunnee is looking for underage. It is an area that is comfortable and relaxing and many enjoying just going to the beer bars there and watching the traffic there. There are good venues in the area and bad ones. Pick and choose which one you want to go to or don't go to any at all or stay out of the area totally. That is each ones own decision. WowPow said it nicely in that he chooses not to go to bars that employ them. That is his line. JBee's line may be to avoid the entire area, that is his line and his choice.
Guest mgluyas Posted November 18, 2007 Posted November 18, 2007 Hi guys, as a guy who visited there in Febuary for the first time I was a little shocked by what I saw. i would like to visit again next Febuary, however I get a little retiscent about telling people I am going to Pattaya due to its reputation. Having said that is there anyway that you could promote those bars that are safe to go to i.e those that deffinetely don't employ underage guys Michael
Bob Posted November 18, 2007 Posted November 18, 2007 JBee, although you don't really say it, you're almost suggesting that this board (or others) actually promote underage kids in the bars. If that's what you meant, you're simply wrong and I would join luvthai and Up2U with their appropriate comments. Also, if you're suggesting that the boards knowingly promote bars which are known to employ underage kids, I'd say "hogwash" to that suggestion too. Where are the posts (i.e., put your money where your mouth is)? Have some bars which have an underage problem been promoted by a few posts here and there? I suppose that's occurred but, even if that's happened, you have no right to label this board or others as promoters of the problem. While you have every right to rail against the problem of underage kids involved in sex and drugs, your misguided aim occurred on a board where the moderator and other posters have a long and consistent history of condemning the practice in Pattaya or elsewhere.
Gaybutton Posted November 19, 2007 Posted November 19, 2007 Having said that is there anyway that you could promote those bars that are safe to go to i.e those that deffinetely don't employ underage guys. I really can't say something to the effect of "this venue has under-age boys and this one doesn't" because it changes too often. Also, I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. If I don't specify which venues employ under-age boys, then I get accused of condoning it. If I do specify those venues, then I get accused of leading the pedophiles right to where they want to go. In other words, no matter what I do, somebody doesn't like what I do. There really is no way to be certain that every available boy working in a particular venue actually is at least 18 years old without checking the ID cards of every employee. Even then, many boys change to a new bar as often as you change your socks, hoping to find a place to work where the grass is greener, so there would be no way to keep up with it even if it was practical to try. In other words, an adult ought to be capable of figuring out for himself which bars are "safe," as you put it. You can't rely on a message board for this sort of information and, as a moderator here, I'm not going to allow someone to place the responsibility on my shoulders of keeping track of the venues and the ages of their employees.
2lz2p Posted November 19, 2007 Posted November 19, 2007 The bars in the area all have under 18 either on stage or available right outside the door and you ask the manger for a younger guy they will arrange it. However you put it, if you go to the Plaza you are supporting pedophilia. And yes, everyone who goes to Sunee has to take a part of the responsibly for this. Few talk about how every bar in the area has underage boys working there. Not one exception. Having spent 15 plus years in Thailand and been to every bar there, there is not one bar at one time or another that doesn’t hire and sell underage. (emphasis added) Hmmmmmmm! Does this mean???
Guest wowpow Posted November 19, 2007 Posted November 19, 2007 It worries me when people contribute stuff like 'hogwash' or 'troll'. I think that the OP has a, mostly, valid viewpoint and it is worth some sensible debate. I don't think that this website promotes underage sex in the slightest. In fact the opposite applies. Even in the city guide for Pattaya (circa 2003?) it strongly advises against sex with anyone under 18 years old - the legal age for permissible prostitution in Thailand. The only trail that I saw recently on "Sunee Plaza cleaned up" was using extreme irony. It was on Sawatdee and this was about the 8 year old abducted from Big C and sold for sex in Sunee. Surely everyone will condemn this sort of thing?
Gaybutton Posted November 19, 2007 Posted November 19, 2007 Surely everyone will condemn this sort of thing? I certainly hope so. I'm on your side regarding the idea that JBee has a point of view, posted intelligently, made his point, included his reasons why he believes what he believes, and I think what he has to say is worthy of debate, rather than people simply trying to blow him off through ridicule. So far, nobody seems to have sided with his point of view and so far he has not returned to further argue his position. Some people are making fun of him. I think doing that negates the possibility of debating his point intelligently and I am guessing he might have already returned if people were posting proper responses rather than ridiculing him. I hope he does return, but my guess is he may be wondering why he should if all that is going to happen will be further ridicule. If that is why he has not returned, I can't say that I blame him. I think he knew damned well his post would provoke responses, but I also think he was hoping for a more serious debate about the issues he raises.
Guest rainwalker Posted November 19, 2007 Posted November 19, 2007 Troll, troll, troll. How may posts do we need expressing outrage over men having sex with boys under 18? 1? 10? 100? 1,000? And each post gives folks a chance to blather on about the ignominy, and by posting their agreement that this is bad, they now can publicly preen and, having blown their load by typing, they feel absolved of any ongoing responsibility to do anything or to create change. These are no more than posts ad captandum vulgus - to appeal to the crowd. Attracting condemnation of those that are into boys is the same as condemning the atrocities of Darfur where UN officials estimate over 400,000 people have lost their lives and some 2 million more have been driven from their homes. It gives us a chance to say "Boo hoo; so sad." then change the channel. Really, the opening post is nothing more than troll blather.
PattayaMale Posted November 19, 2007 Posted November 19, 2007 Larry Craig, Larry Craig, Larry Craig...... Debate away if you like. However I wonder what people would say if the "legal" age was 16? My point is that some that have previously posted their indignation that people are under legal age may have a behavior different than what they post. I know one person that had a wonderful service for those new to Thailand. He posted pictures of boys that he had interviewed and could vouch for as wanting to meet a farang for a long term relationship. He charged in advance for setting this meeting. I am sure he had the boys best interest at heart. He fully explained what the daily fee should be for the boy, what should be expected as far as time off for the boy and other expenses such as meals and drinks. For someone new to Thailand and traveling alone I thought this would be a good idea to see Thailand for the first time. And it was. I have no complaints about the service. How does this lead to my point? Well after being with this boy for a while, I asked when his birthday was. He told me. I asked "How old will you be?" He said 18. "How old are you now?" 17 he said. Truthfully it did not bother me since we never had sex. At the time there wasn't quite the concern in Thailand that there is today. I am sure this is not a very politically correct thing to say. I doubt that people that do off under legal age people (be it male or female) would want to debate the issue on this public forum. To me it is a little bit like Larry Craig from the US congress who vowed many times he was not gay but was arrested for soliciting gay sex in a public bathroom. Very illegal in the US....but when you look at the telephone book in any large US city there are all these ads for "escort services". Let me make it clear. I am NOT supporting breaking the law. What governments decide the legal age is should be followed!!! So, let the debate begin. However, I think only one view will be presented. I think it is a nonsense topic
Gaybutton Posted November 19, 2007 Posted November 19, 2007 My point is that some that have previously posted their indignation that people are under legal age may have a behavior different than what they post. I don't mind if you come right out and say you are referring to the matchmaking service I ran on my former web site. It was legitimate and many people formed wonderful, lasting relationships that are still ongoing as a result of it. I'm proud of what I did, despite the constant barrage of accusations that I was nothing more than a pimp. I do, however, deeply resent your implication that I post against under-age sex while participating in it myself. I have never knowingly been involved with an under-age boy and if you're trying to accuse me of it, or trying to say that I'm a hypocrite, then you are dead wrong.
Up2u Posted November 19, 2007 Posted November 19, 2007 Troll, troll, troll. How may posts do we need expressing outrage over men having sex with boys under 18? 1? 10? 100? 1,000? And each post gives folks a chance to blather on about the ignominy, and by posting their agreement that this is bad, they now can publicly preen and, having blown their load by typing, they feel absolved of any ongoing responsibility to do anything or to create change. These are no more than posts ad captandum vulgus - to appeal to the crowd. Attracting condemnation of those that are into boys is the same as condemning the atrocities of Darfur where UN officials estimate over 400,000 people have lost their lives and some 2 million more have been driven from their homes. It gives us a chance to say "Boo hoo; so sad." then change the channel. Really, the opening post is nothing more than troll blather. I agree. This post was by a newbie "troll" that is probably kicking back and laughing at the responses. He cleverly dragged the board owner and moderators into the fray. They responded. Let this thread die.
Gaybutton Posted November 19, 2007 Posted November 19, 2007 Let this thread die. Ok, I will. Thread locked.
Guest Posted November 19, 2007 Posted November 19, 2007 Ok, I will. Thread locked. I will add my last 2 cents worth as well. Lines are blurred with many things. I much prefer to see those almost 18 years old off the streets and working in a bar where they are taken much better care of and not taken advantage of. But, at the same time, I don’t want the bars to lie about the ages of the guys working for them. It is a catch 22. While the bars are not legally allowed to employ those under 18, they are also not allowed to hire those from other countries and that is very common as well. In both cases it gives the guys a better chance for a different life than that on the streets. I do think that the reputation of Pattaya has been tarnished by recent events. I don’t know what the reputations was years ago but it is obvious to all that it is a city of hookers. I have not problem with that image but I don’t want the public to think that it is a place where one can go and easily get 8 year old boys. That is what the world has been seeing of recent days and I don’t think it is an accurate statement. I have never seen someone that young in a bar. I have seen 15-18 in bars and I have seen them on the stage. I don’t think boycotting all of Sunneee or Pattaya is the solution to anything. I much prefer a way to get the boys off the streets and let them make money. How? I don’t know. I don’t have the answer. I do think that many out there see the press and automatically think of Pattaya as only a place for young kids. It is not true and it is not accurate. Last weekend, I had about 20 working boys from NYC in my apartment for dinner. I say working boys but they most have actually moved on from the business. 21 guys were at the dinner that had been escorts in NYC 4 years ago when I left. I have remained friends with them. I had a little dinner party and we all caught up on old times. They are all now in the mid to late 20’s and some in their early thirties. All are educated and have professional jobs in New York City. They make good enough income to make ends meet and are doing well for themselves. Only 2 of the 21 are currently still escorting on the side. 1 of the 21 is doing massage. 8 of the 21 are in long-term relationships with someone their age. 4 of the 21 are in relationships with men much older (Sugar). All of them expressed interest in visiting Thailand and had heard wonderful tales of the place. Nearly every one of them asked about Pattaya and had opinions that were adverse to what Pattaya actually is. They all thought that only underage boys and girls were in Pattaya. As boys in the business, they have all traveled around the globe and several had been to Thailand but none to Pattaya. Anyway, it seems that the news media is winning the battle on what Pattaya is portrayed as. I think this is a travesty. The guy that was arrested with the photographs was not in Thailand most of the time but came back there and went to Pattaya only for a few days but the world hears the word Pattaya over and over again. It seems to get pounded into their heads. I would love to see this changed as I intend to live there one day. So, what is the solution? How is the image turned around?
