Latest Pattaya Immigration outrage

[Guest wowpow]

jeepholt on www.thaivisa.com

 

I just received this notice in the Pattaya City Expats Club Newsletter - Oct. 21 to Oct 28, 2007:

 

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QUOTE

NEW VISA RULES CHANGES - Pattaya Immigration bureau has introduced the following rules regarding one year Visa’s and extensions of Visa’s.

 

Applicants for one year retirement visas must now show and make copies of the back and front of any currently valid ATM or credit card issued in their name. The copies must be signed by the applicant. It does not matter whether the card was issued in Thailand or overseas. This is intended as a further check on an applicant's financial health.

 

Applicants for extensions on short visas, for example a request for the maximum allowed 7 days on a “Visa on Arrival” or for the maximum 30 days on a “60 day Tourist Visa” issued abroad, must now show proof of their onward travel plans after the extension has expired, by having in their possession an air or electronic airline ticket, or a bus ticket with clear dates printed on it. This requirement is to assure Immigration that the visa holder does indeed plan to leave Thailand at the expiration of his extension. This information is also on the PCEC website at http://www.pattayacityexpatsclub.com/modul...le&sid=1039

 

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My comment on Thursday experience at Jomtien:

I went to renew my retirement extension yesterday at Jomtien (Thursday). I used the money in bank rule again (800K) and not the monthly income rule. I was not asked to show any credit cards which are the only way I bring money into Thailand, nor any credit card receipts. Which is probably a good thing, because I don't know about you guys, but doesn't something look really shaky about the above statement about making copies of your credit cards? What could be easier than this for someone to use that information to commit credit card fraud and identity fraud? I also had my money in a "Joint Account" and was asked for a copy of my marriage certificate to prove who the other name was on my "joint account". I was worried about the joint account being questioned since this is the first time I ever used the joint account at immigration, and thought they may require me to have double the money in the account with my Thai wife. They didn't THIS time luckily, since I wanted to use that account as emergency funds in case I get thrown in the hospital or jail. My circumstances may be different than some since I MAY have some sort of "grandfathering" in effect since I've been here for 38 years now, but if these requirements listed above are legitimate for credit card/ATM card copies, then I can REALLY see big problems. I don't see any way I would ever give copies of my credit cards (front AND back) to ANYONE, let alone our ever friendly immigration offices!

 

Jingthing also wrote

What will they want next? Our kidneys?

Another good business idea: sell KY and vaseline outside the immigration offices to hopeful applicants looking to ease the pain.

This post has been edited by Jingthing: 2007-10-26 16:45:19

 

 

[Gaybutton]

Applicants for one year retirement visas must now show and make copies of the back and front of any currently valid ATM or credit card issued in their name.

 

I'm wondering about this one. First, it seems to me like this is the kind of rule that won't last very long. Probably everybody is going to complain about it and I don't understand what this rule is supposed to accomplish. Second, when it comes my turn to renew, the first thing I'm going to do if asked for front and back copies of my cards is check with the head honcho and make sure this is actually a rule in the first place.

 

The way around it, as I see it, would be to open another Thai bank account and keep only minimal funds in it. If it really is a rule, then they can have the front and back of the ATM card for that account. If they really want to steal the 500 baht, the max I would keep in that account, they can have it.

[Bob]

The way around it, as I see it, would be to open another Thai bank account and keep only minimal funds in it. If it really is a rule, then they can have the front and back of the ATM card for that account. If they really want to steal the 500 baht, the max I would keep in that account, they can have it.

 

 

Exactly my first thoughts - there is no way I'm giving them the data on an account with substantial funds in it. If they follow through with this requirement, looks like I'll have to open up another account and keep a few thousand baht in it to keep it open.

[Up2u]

No big deal to me. Hotels take impressions or copies of CC's all the time.

[Maple]

There is a major problem with providing a copy of both sides of ATM or credit cards because there is a special security code on the back of all cards located on the right end of the signature strip. Once a ne'er-do-well gets that number, they can use your card to purchase things via the Internet. Typically they can purchase items up to $500 USD before the credit card issuer or bank flags these illicit charges.

 

A few years ago, the Pattaya Immigration office asked me for copies of both sides of my ATM card. When I protested that I did not want anyone to have a copy of the back of my card with my signature and the security code, they backed down and accepted a copy of just the front of my card.

[Guest wowpow]

I don't mind using my UK credit cards and ATM card because they are well insured against fraud or illegal use. However Thai banks do not offer the same coverage - if any and I will be very reluctant to give my Thai ATM card details to anyone.

 

I know that I should have learned not to ask but WHY. What possible information can they gather from one's credit card or ATM card? Will they be able to see the transactions? I am sure that UK banks will not allow that.

 

The only possible thing that I can think of is that they want to be able to trace people on the run such as Canadian suspect pedophiles. If so why do they need a copy of the signature and secret number on the reverse?

 

I really wonder if they have a monthly competition at the Immigration Office to see who can come up with a new regulation to hassle tourists and ex-pats in a new way. Can anyone remember a time when Immigration took a single step to make Visa application easier or to try to make foreigners welcome to Thailand?

[Gaybutton]

I will be very reluctant to give my Thai ATM card details to anyone.

 

So will I. I too would like to know how this sort of information is of any possible practical use to the officials. I am normally perfectly willing to cooperate with whatever it is they are trying to do, but not to the extent that I am being asked to provide information that has the potential to wipe out people's bank accounts. I think the immigration officials who came up with this idea ought to be obligated to explain just what they intend to do with this sort of information, but most of us know that we're all expected to just grin and bear anything they decide to do, without question.

 

It will be very interesting to see if any of the embassies are going to have anything to say about this one. I think, assuming this requirement truly exists, there will be enough pressure from complaints and, I hope, the embassies to get them to eventually rescind this idea. After all, it didn't take long for them to rescind the idea of forcing people to provide maps to their residences and get a stamp from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. That one lasted less than a month, as I recall.

 

Sometimes I can't help but try to visualize the meeting in which this sort of idea was discussed and approved. "Hey Woot . . . I've got a great idea! Let's make the 'farang' give us copies of their ATM and credit cards. Hey? What do you think?"

 

"Wonderful idea, Chon. Call the printer."

 

What's next? Finger prints and scrotum prints?

 

I can't imagine that this regulation is going to really last very long.

[PattayaMale]

I went to immigration today since my retirement visa expires Nov 2. I wanted to make sure I knew from them what was needed. I was told I just needed the letter for US embasy for my pension and a letter from the bank showing that I have a Thai account and fill out the form they gave me. I asked about the stamp from the foreign ministry and the credit card copies. They said neither were needed, I guess I will find out for sure Nov. 2

[Gaybutton]

I guess I will find out for sure Nov. 2

 

I'm glad to know that and I'm sure you just provided a sigh of relief to many. Please let us know what takes place on November 2. That way we'll all know for certain.

[Guest RichLB]

I, too, am relieved to hear this may be misinformation. Years ago, in my more naive days about things Thailand, I was asked by the immigration officer to provide copies of the front and back of my credit card along with an atm receipt showing I was able to withdraw money here. Stupidly, not kowing any better, I gave him what he asked for A month later I received a call from Visa asking if I had bought two computers in Korea, each valued at sevral thusand dollars each, and if I had made cash withdrawal for several more thousand dollars.

 

I have no idea if the two incidents are related, but I have vowed never to make the back of my card available again. If asked, i will tape over the security code so it can not be copied and the last three numbers on the front of the card.

[PattayaMale]

I went to immigration today since my retirement visa expires Nov 2. I wanted to make sure I knew from them what was needed. I was told I just needed the letter for US embasy for my pension and a letter from the bank showing that I have a Thai account and fill out the form they gave me. I asked about the stamp from the foreign ministry and the credit card copies. They said neither were needed, I guess I will find out for sure Nov. 2

 

Ok so I went to today to renew my retirement visa and have it transfered into my new passport. I brought my pension letter form the US embassy and the letter from my bank saying I had an account with 358 baht in it and the TM 7. They DID ask for a copy of my ATM card. I said I was not comfortable giving all the numbers. They said "up to you". So I went and made a copy and crossed out the last five numbers. I took it back in and they said "OK". They then did all there stamping and I paid the 1900 baht. The whole process took 40 minutes including the wait for my number

 

[Gaybutton]

They DID ask for a copy of my ATM card.

 

You left out one thing from your report. Did they want a copy of only the front of the card or did they want a copy of both front and back?

 

In any case, I'm glad to know they at least let you cross out some of the numbers.

[PattayaMale]

You left out one thing from your report. Did they want a copy of only the front of the card or did they want a copy of both front and back?

 

In any case, I'm glad to know they at least let you cross out some of the numbers.

 

They wanted front and back. I crossed out the last 2 numbers on the copy of the front and the same 2 numbers plus the 3 security code from the back.

[Gaybutton]

Thank you very much for letting us know. As long as they don't mind people crossing out those numbers, then I don't see this as anything to get upset about.

[bkkguy]

Thank you very much for letting us know. As long as they don't mind people crossing out those numbers, then I don't see this as anything to get upset about.

 

if you cross out some numbers then they cannot do anything with the information then why demand it? and there is no valid legal reason for them to ask for it so people should be upset!

 

bkkguy

 

 

[Gaybutton]

if you cross out some numbers then they cannot do anything with the information then why demand it? and there is no valid legal reason for them to ask for it so people should be upset!

 

That's a good question and I wouldn't be surprised if the reason turns out to be some form of "Thai logic," a favorite oxymoron. In any case, since they cannot do anything with crossed out information, then I've got better things to lose any sleep about.

 

I still think it's a regulation that will be short-lived and won't last very long.

 

I wonder what people do if they don't even have an ATM card. Not everyone wants to carry one. Are they really going to force people to obtain an ATM card against their will in order to obtain a visa?

 

"Sir, you must make copy you ATM card, two side."

 

"But I don't have an ATM card."

 

"Oh, you must have Thai bank account for visa."

 

"I have a Thai bank account. Here's my bank passbook along with the required copies."

 

"But you no have ATM card?"

 

"That's right. I don't want one. Too many stories of illicit use and theft."

 

"Not make sense no have ATM card."

 

"Well, it makes about as much sense as this rule, doesn't it?"

[Gaybutton]

The following appears in PATTAYA TODAY:

 

http://www.pattaya2day.com/index.php?actio...ews&id=2588

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Retirement Visa New Rule

 

Most Extensions are Affected

 

Pattaya immigration bureau has announced several rule revisions which affect both one year retirement visa holders and, in addition, those requesting 7 or 30 day extensions to shorter visas.

 

Yearly retirement visa applicants, whether registering for the first time or re-applying, are now required to photocopy (back and front) a current credit or ATM card in their own name and hand it in with their other required paperwork from their Thai bank showing cash balance and, in most cases, a letter from their embassy guaranteeing pension income from the home country.

 

Separately, all holders of visas on arrival and tourist visas who are seeking an extension at Pattaya immigration – 7 days extra in the case of visas on arrival and 30 days extra in the case of tourist visas obtained abroad – must now show original documentation, plus photocopy, which explains their onward travel plans. This means that applicants for these shorter extensions must present an air ticket or overland ticket to a neighbouring country with a clear travelling date and not open ended.

 

The latest changes are not in force in every immigration office, but are specific requirements at the Pattaya office. A spokesman said, “Pattaya has an unusually large number of foreigners on its books and these amendments are designed to provide evidence of good intention on their part. Retirement visa applicants will show a current ATM or credit card as evidence they are in good standing with a bank, whether in Thailand or overseas. Separately, those applying for extensions on shorter visas will need to show they have a clear plan to leave the country once the extension has been used up.”

 

In recent weeks, there has been a flurry of new rules and amendments to the various categories of visa holders. For example, the Royal Thai consulate in Penang is now restricting the number of 60 day tourist visas for any individual to three. After that there’s a note printed in the passport to the effect that future applications will probably fail.

 

Other Thai embassies in south east Asia are reported as operating the same policy.

 

The purpose behind these changes seems to be to discourage farangs on short visas living permanently in Thailand . The argument is that tourists will be leaving the country to go home after their trip is completed. On the other hand, those wanting to reside in Thailand should be applying for a one year visa of some kind, backed by sufficient financial resources to ensure they are not a burden on the Thai state.

 

The main one year visas available are for retirees with an income, those with a Thai spouse who can show regular cash transfers to Thailand and extensions linked to possession of a work permit issued by the labour office.

 

A well connected Pattaya travel agent and visa specialist agreed that the trend was to discourage back packers and the impecunious from living permanently in Thailand. “Those on very modest means are welcome as tourists and holiday makers, but increasingly the long stay foreigners are being means tested,” he said.

 

He added that the Thai elite card had visa advantages, but required a membership fee of one million baht. There was also a three year non immigrant business visa available at some overseas Thai embassies, but this required sponsorship from commercial enterprises or the board of investment here in Thailand.

[PattayaMale]

The lady at immigration explained to me that they ask those who have a pension letter for a copy of the ATM card to show that you can bring the mney into Thailand. If you have a 800,000 baht on deposit in a Thai bank they don't ask for the ATM card.

 

 

[Gaybutton]

The lady at immigration explained to me that they ask those who have a pension letter for a copy of the ATM card to show that you can bring the money into Thailand.

 

I'm not particularly concerned about it now, since they allow you to cross out the important numbers, but I'm curious about the "logic" behind it. If that's the reason, then I wonder what's wrong with simply showing them the ATM card instead of having to provide a copy of it. I wonder why showing the Thai bank passbook wouldn't be enough. I also thought the required letter the bank provides confirms that the money is being deposited via a foreign source.

 

This whole thing is just another item for my "I don't get it" list.

[Up2u]

From today's Pattaya Mail:

 

http://www.pattayamail.com/current/news.shtml#hd1

 

The Immigration authorities have issued new requirements for foreigners wishing to apply for a retirement visa, including the need to have an ATM card and a credit card.

Pol Lt. Samruay Saman, deputy inspector at Pattaya Immigration announced the new rules on November 12.

 

Pol. Lt. Samruay Saman, deputy inspector at Pattaya Immigration

Applicants using visa application form TM 7 have to enclose their passport, a 4 x 6 cm photograph, 1,900 baht fee, proof of income (certificate of bank deposit and bank book savings account, or a fixed account for at least the last three months), and proof of an appropriate amount of money from abroad through the bank in a certain period of time, such as a certificate of transfer from abroad or copy of a banking transfer order.

In the event of having any dependents such as a husband, a wife or children, then the relationship certificate approval with Thai translation certified by the embassy or consulate must be presented.

The authorities reserve the right to ask for any additional necessary documents in the event of requiring a copy of an ATM and credit card statement, a bank statement, a bank book, and a certificate of pension from the embassy in the event the source of such an amount cannot be checked.

Regulations for taking into consideration a foreign applicant’s extension for staying in Thailand require that the foreigner be more than 50 years old, and not forbidden to enter into the kingdom. The foreigner must have financial proof of a deposited amount of no less than 800,000 baht, or a monthly income of no less than 65,000 baht, or an annual income of no less than 800,000 baht in total.

For more information please visit www.immigration.go.th