The Scum of Society? That's Easy

[Lucky]

In theory there is a legitimate role to be played by an individual or company who seeks to collect unpaid debts. After all, you promised to pay, so if you don't, someone has to act on it.

So why is it that bill collectors have such a bad reputation? Well, because they have no ethics. It seems they will go any length to collect a debt, bear any burden in harassing an individual they are after.

I have a pretty good credit record, but the one mar on it comes from a bill a collector says I owe Sprint, a company I used many years ago. My final payment to them did not get properly credited, so after some fight, I did get it straightened out. Or so I thought. They went ahead and sold the debt to a bill collector, and it remains on my credit report today, even though I don't owe it. Credit reporting companies couldn't care less if you actually owe the bill. Their members can impugn anyone's credit without fear. They are notorious for not having the staff to correct false reports, no matter the evidence they are provided.

One very aggressive agency sent my partner a dun for a hospital bill many years after the fact. I pointed out to them that we didn't owe it, and even if we did, the stature of limitations on the debt was expired. Their response was to send an amended bill, with a later date, one within the statute. Problem was, we weren't even living in that town when the new bill was supposedly incurred.

One caution folks, if you make any payment on a dead bill, such as the one I mention, it revives it, or so I am told.

And, speaking of the dead, today's Wall Street Journal has a lengthy article on debt companies which specialize in collecting debt from dead people. If a person dies with a debt jointly owed, the surviving partner still owes it. But, if the dead person alone owed the bill, chances are there is no way the debt will be paid. But that doesn't stop the debt companies from harassing survivors, playing on a so-called "moral" obligation to pay the debts of their deceased relatives. As if they know morals!

The Journal is pretty strict about allowing their articles to be viewed only by subscribers, so I will use editorial license for some choice quotes:

"Tony Lloyd, a former manager for debt collector DCM Services LLC of Minneapolis, says the benefits of using death-debt collectors are clear. "The big selling point is that these collectors offer banks a cushion that shields them from actually having to do the gritty work of going after dead people's families," he says."

"William Howard, a consumer-rights lawyer with Morgan & Morgan in Tampa, Fla., says he has represented 50 people pursued for debts owed by dead family members so far this year, up from 10 in all of 2010. "Collectors are starting to realize just how much money you can get from someone when they are at their most vulnerable," he says."

"FTC officials rejected requests by lawyers representing family members for an outright ban on calling surviving family members. The agency also declined to impose a cooling-off period during which relatives couldn't be contacted by debt collectors."

"Collecting the debts of the dead is often easier than other collection work, says Mark Russell, a director at debt-collection advisory firm Kaulkin Ginsberg in Rockville, Md. Most borrowers behind on their bills have little or no money. Successfully collecting death debts takes just one relative who is willing to pay, he says."

"Collectors in the death-debt business use carefully calibrated techniques. Employees often begin their calls with a sprinkle of grief counseling. DCM Services uses what it calls "empathetic active recovery."

"Some debt collectors send condolence cards that double as collection letters. In September, Maxine Feinberg of Brooklyn, N.Y., got a letter from AscensionPoint Recovery Services LLC, a debt collector in Coon Rapids, Minn. The company offered its "deepest condolences," referring to the death of her husband, David.

The company then brought up the $407.96 owed by Mr. Feinberg on a Macy's Inc. credit card. The letter thanked Mrs. Feinberg for "promptly attending to this important matter in the life of David Feinberg." Macy's didn't respond to requests for comment."

Well, you get the point. Here's the link, which I encourage you to try:Death & Debt

[Lucky]

BiBottom boy mentions elsewhere troubles with getting clients to pay. I have a friend in a small(er) business that works a lot in China and Dubai. Those people are adept at avoiding paying for work they have ordered. Constant excuses.

So legitimate bill collecting is clearly necessary. But it does seem to attract the scum of the earth, most of whom seem unhappy limiting themselves to legitimate bills. Thus buying up old uncollectable debt, hassling the grieving families of the newly deceased,and posting false debts on credit reports.

There was a time when, if you had a debt to collect, you would go to court and get a judgment. But that would require you to prove the debt is due. The credit reporting companies care nothing about such niceties, and there is no money for them in clearing up false information.

[BiBottomBoy]

The thing is you don't have to hassle relatives and shit. And, sometimes you do just have to write off a debt as uncollectable.

Most people do want to pay their bills. When I have trouble collecting is during the holidays, because people overspend on other stuff and then try to push their current bills off and/or companies want to push expenses off until after Jan. 1 for budgeting reasons. The other times I have trouble is when I'm consulting for start ups and sometimes they put off payments until revenue comes in because they have cash flow problems.

[RA1]

I agree that there is a need for legitimate debt collections. Many of those folks can make reasonable requests and get reasonable answers. The "scum" are the ones who prey on folks who are unable, temporarily or otherwise, to pay their debts and who make a business of buying debts that are indeed already written off by the lending company.

I also agree that most folks do want to pay their honest debts which is why the scum can use guilt so effectively.

Best regards,

RA

[TotallyOz]

I have many friends from law school who owe money. They borrowed 60,000-100,000 to pay for their education. Now, they all owe 3-5times that amount. How is that even possible in 12 years? I just can't fathom how that is allowed.

I did read a great article yesterday from the Denver Post:

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_4987336?source=share_fb

Why didn't I decide to be a banker when I was a kid. It seems they bank big bucks in any economy even when they fuck up the economy.

[BiBottomBoy]

Obama signed a law two months ago that says that if you can get away with not pay all or part of your student loans for 20 years they get written off.

[RA1]

Another result of "liberal government"? First "they" make it easy to get but maybe hard to repay loans readily available, then, if the student is lucky but the taxpayers are unlucky, they forgive the loan. Does any of that make sense?

I certainly agree with, how does a loan multiply to 3-5 times it original value in a few years? Of course, one way is for NO payments during the term.

This is not an easy problem with an easy solution and nothing offered so far comes close.

Best regards,

RA1

[Guest CharliePS]

The state of California duns the now-adult children of people who once got inappropriate welfare payments, taking them to court to make them pay for the money their parents got and may have used to take care of them. And it's apparently legal for the state to do so, even though the former children did not receive the money and may have not received any benefit from it.

[TotallyOz]

Obama signed a law two months ago that says that if you can get away with not pay all or part of your student loans for 20 years they get written off.

I don't think that is the case.

[MsGuy]

The state of California duns the now-adult children of people who once got inappropriate welfare payments, taking them to court to make them pay for the money their parents got and may have used to take care of them.

??????

Can you give us a link for that, Charlie? That's kind of weird, even for Cali.

[Guest CharliePS]

??????

Can you give us a link for that, Charlie? That's kind of weird, even for Cali.

Believe it or not, I don't know how to post links (or send photos, or any of that techy stuff). It was an AP article by Paul Elias that was printed today in The Desert Sun, our local paper.

[MsGuy]

Believe it or not, I don't know how to post links (or send photos

LOL, it took me months to figure out on my own how to link stuff, Charlie. But 1) it's actually very easy, 2) you're smarter than me and 3) you can ask Lucky to show you how, lol.

[Lucky]

Here it is:

Charlie's Link

[BiBottomBoy]

I don't think that is the case.

It is.

Check this out:

http://gawker.com/5853446/obama-announcing-plan-to-help-you-pay-for-your-expensive-dumb-degree

[Lucky]

The "link" that Gawker provides to the story does not lead anywhere. Don't forget, Obama had a mortgage reduction program too, but it was a big bust and helped very few people.

[TotallyOz]

It is.

Check this out:

http://gawker.com/5853446/obama-announcing-plan-to-help-you-pay-for-your-expensive-dumb-degree

Well, it says that if you pay the legal limit for 20 years, that it is forgiven. If you miss payments, you don't get it paid. It is not like if you just don't pay your loans for 20 years then they are forgiven. That is not the case. If you are not in default, if you make all your monthly payments agreed up, if the law doesn't change, then you can get it forgiven after 20 years of monthly payments. Am I wrong in this?

[Guest CharliePS]

LOL, it took me months to figure out on my own how to link stuff, Charlie. But 1) it's actually very easy, 2) you're smarter than me and 3) you can ask Lucky to show you how, lol.

Like many old people, I'm really not comfortable with most electronic technology. As long as I can send and receive email, access websites, and make and receive calls on my cell phone, I'm satisfied. I did buy a new cell phone recently, but I use it the same way I used my first one in the 1990s. I hardly ever turn it on, because I depend on a landline (no caller ID). I also recently bought my first digital camera; someday I may learn what to do with the photos after I take them. I have never tweeted, texted, or looked at Facebook. I couldn't tell you the difference between an iPod, an iPad, a tablet or a reading device like a Kindle, and I don't understand WiFi. I watch TV in real time, because I don't know how to record anything. I also don't have a DVD player. I only listen to music on a radio or a CD player. I don't shop online, or pay bills that way. I have never bought anything with a debit card. I do my own income taxes, including all the math, by hand, on paper forms. I don't even have an avatar here, because I don't know how to install one; the only reason I have one on the other site is because Lucky found it and installed it for me.

Yes, I am a relic of the 20th century.

[Lucky]

Here are more details from the Washington Post:

Obama Tuition Help

[BiBottomBoy]

OK, my best female friend is in the situation where she has missed payments and had problems with her student loans. She just turned 41. At my advice she talked to my family's financial attorney. He told her that if she can just put off getting sued by these people for the next six months (when it would be 20 years) that her entire student loan debt will be forgiven under the new Obama law.

That seemed unlikely to me, so I asked a fellow family member who is also a lawyer and he looked at it and said "yep, just don't get sued during the 20 year period and your student loan will be forgiven."

After that, just to make sure I asked my little brother who is a third year law student if he would ask his law professors about it. He did and they said the same thing.

[MsGuy]

Here it is:

Charlie's Link

Jesus Fucking Frog!

So when the girl was 16 her parents got overpaid (not for her but for her older brother!) and the girl (now an adult) owes the Welfares for the overpayment?? What???

And why? Because the daffy Cali legislature passes a law saying "Gimme the money, bitch."?? If my sweetheart of a highway commissioner mis-spends public funds supposed to go on my local highway, can the legislature pass a law saying I owe the entire amount personally because I once drove on the highway?

And the Cali courts have no problem with this? Too weird for rational comment.

[BiBottomBoy]

California is so broke that they will do anything to bring money in the door.