Good for the Palestinians!

[lookin]

I know that Washington is putting tremendous pressure on the Palestinians to drop their request for UN membership later this week, but I think I'd be doing exactly the same thing if I were in their sandals.

The so-called "peace process" has been stalled for decades, throughout which more and more protected settlements are springing up and forcing Palestinians into less and less of their land. Imagine if Israel began constructing guarded settlements in New Jersey with no end in sight.

I have no beef at all with Israelis who want to protect their right to exist as a nation, but I have a harder time finding the justification for confiscating Palestinian land almost at will. If there's no plan to protect what pieces they have left, aren't the Palestinians in effect agreeing to be bled to death?

If the UN can't help protect them, who will? I think the U. S. is being placed directly in the spotlight and I think that our promised veto of the Palestinians' request will raise legitimate questions about our country's support for freedom in the Middle East.

Personally, I'm glad the issue is coming to the fore. If we can support the Palestinians' bid for freedom, great. If we refuse, then I think we should at least have the courage to belly up to the bar and say so directly. As far as I know, hypocrisy has not been a traditional American value.

[Lucky]

I completely agree, Lookin.

[RA1]

I wish I knew how to think about this. Who and what are the Palestinians? I think I read recently that 40% of the Israelis are Arabs which in this case means citizens of Israel. If Palestinians are Arabs seeking their own destiny, I am not sure why it has to be exactly where they are, it seems to me that with a little more "migration" they can vote Israel into whatever they want it to be. Or, there seems to be "other" land nearby which has the same characteristics. Why is the grass always greener in another's pasture?

This whole situation makes my head hurt.

Best regards,

RA1

[MsGuy]

I think I read recently that 40% of the Israelis are Arabs which in this case means citizens of Israel.

About 20%, give or take, KMEM. It would have been around 35% by now but for massive immigration in the last 2 decades, mostly from Russia and the Ukraine under the 'right of return'.

This whole situation makes my head hurt.

Yes!

[MsGuy]

I have no beef at all with Israelis who want to protect their right to exist as a nation, but I have a harder time finding the justification for confiscating Palestinian land almost at will.

Shows what you know, lookin:

1) The Ottoman Sultan (remember him?) held theoretical title to all land in the Mid-East not specifically conveyed to some private party. The state of Israel is successor in title to the Sultan (Sultan>England>Jordan>Israel). As much of the land of the West Bank is held by tradition rather than written title, many Pals are actually just squatters on Israeli land and subject to being turfed off all legal like.

Not buying that? Then:

2) The Pals already have their own country (Jordan is majority Pal). If they don't like the way Israel runs things, they should move to Jordan. Refusal to leave is prima facia evidence of malicious intent.

Still don't get it? How about:

3) What about all the poor heredim who need somewhere cheap to live? Rents in Israel proper are sky high. They want move to settlements, they move to settlements. It's impossible to stop them.

Still puzzled?

4) G-- gave Judea and Samaria to the Jews. How is a policy keeping Judea and Samaria free of Jews any different than the Nazi policy of a Judenrein Europe?

----

All of the above and more can be found on the pages of the online versions of The Jerusalem Post (center-right) and Haaretz (leftish), the two largest newspapers in Israel. This kind of stuff passes for serious political debate in Israel.

If there's no plan to protect what pieces they have left, aren't the Palestinians in effect agreeing to be bled to death?

So who's asking them to agree to anything? They had their chance, they blew it and now Israel is through with asking.

----

The reality is that the political discourse on the Pal side is clogged with equally insane rubbish. To quote KMEM, "The whole situation makes my head hurt."

[BiBottomBoy]

The Palestinians have been kicked around by both Arabs and Israel for generations.

It's time they get their own state - and Jordan doesn't count.

[TampaYankee]

The problem here is that the UN cannot create a nation by fiat while sitting in New York. Let's say they try and 'bestow' soverign rights to a 'Palastinian State'. Who is going to protect and defend those rights? The Palenstians? The UN?

Are the Palestinians going to kick out or repel the settlements? Defend their own borders? If they push against Israel then Israel will simply retake the entirety of the West Bank and install Marshal Law. If Gaza threatens then Israel with pound the shit out of them and isolate them even more than before. Who is going to stop them? The US? Europe? Russia? Egypt and Syria? Excepting the US, no one will without a war. A regional war or potentially a world war. The Israelis are not going gently into the night. They have nukes if their existence is put in doubt.

The US cannot do much for political reasons. To think otherwise is folly. The US is limited to providing a go-between and economic aid and some limited guarantees to smooth the transtion to two states. We cannot impose a solution that either side rejects anymore than the UN can.

The Israelis have dragged their feet and worse imposed severe policies to retard effectively the realization of any practical solution, mostly due to their right wing. But they do not work in a vacuum as Israel is a democracy. While I blame the Israelis for some poor decisions and bad actions you cannot blame them for their overall reticence considering the Palestinian continued refusal to acknowledge Isarel's right to exist,even as part of a two state solution, after their historical dedication to the principle of pushing the Israelis into the sea. Without that key step, how can anyone expect them to negotiate seriously with an adversary. It is not enought to discontinue that rhetoric. That says nothing about a change in position or principle.

The Palestinians have never missed an opportuinty to miss an opportunity for an agreement -- under Arafat and Abbas. First, because Arafat wasn't willing to settle for a two state solution and later probably because he didnt want to be assassinated if he agreed to one. The latter has disuaded Abbas as well as dealing with an intransigent right wing coalition. The Gazans put Hamas in power in the legislature in Gaza through elections and then Hamas carried out a coup against the executive branch Abbas faction in Gaza. That is not exactly a good faith negotiating strategy.

The bottom line is that each side just isn't ready to move beyond the historical impasse to a true compromise solution whether it be the leaders or the people. It is a time bomb for Israel and continuing purgatory for the Palestinians. And the UN cannot change that, only the principles can.

What this does do is make trouble for the US. Political trouble at home and political trouble in the Arab World. And we are not helped by our NATO and other allies if they lend support to this. Neither is the peace process. And we should let them know it.

[BiBottomBoy]

But the UN can make a symbolic measure granting statehood and that might move discussions forward.

The real solution to all of this is for Israel to go back to the 1967 borders.

[TampaYankee]

But the UN can make a symbolic measure granting statehood and that might move discussions forward.

If the solution coujld have been achieved from such impotent action then the problem would have been solved a hundred times over in the last 40 years.

The real solution to all of this is for Israel to go back to the 1967 borders.

Ain't gonna happen nor should it. Part of Israel's demand is secure boarders and who can blame them given the history. That doesn't mean land swaps cannot be negotiated.

[BiBottomBoy]

Symbolic actions don't solve problems but they move things closer to a solution.

Baby steps.

[lookin]

I wish I knew how to think about this. Who and what are the Palestinians?

Good question, RA1, and I'm not surprised it makes your head hurt. As MsGuy has shown so well, the answer does seem to shift around over time. This map shows just one of the trends that makes it so hard to define the Palestinians, even geogaphically:

Adjectives I've heard used to describe the Palestinians include violent, poor, uneducated, extremist, moderate, beleaguered, fractious, determined, doomed, unwanted, and a host of others. Of course, not all of these descriptors apply to all Palestinians.

But the issue at hand is not so much how we define the Palestinians but, rather, how they define themselves. And that's what I think they are attempting to do right now, before it's too late. Already, they are being told where and how they can live, how they can travel throughout what land remains to them, whether or not they can build structures and infrastructure, and given a host of other proscriptions that make any pretense of self-determination just that - a pretense. If present trends continue, they could cease to exist entirely.

And beyond the issue of who the Palestinians are is the issue of who we are. In my opinion, that's an equally important issue, as it determines whether or not the U. S. has any standing at all as a supporter of democracy and self-determination in this part of the world. Or, for that matter, in any other part of the world.

Being able to legitimately take the moral high ground on individual human rights has been an important component of U. S. national identity and foreign policy, at least as long as I've been alive. As some have said, the U. S. is being put in the spotlight on this issue. Will we defend or veto the Palestinians' right to create their own identity? And, if we deny the Palestinians' right to self-determination, how are we different from other totalitarian leaders who deny their own citizens that freedom?

If nothing else, shooing them towards a dysfunctional "peace process" while their land continues to disappear will no longer be a viable foreign policy option for the U. S. And, for shining a light on that simple fact, I have to commend the Palestinians.

[BiBottomBoy]

Well said!

[TampaYankee]

IMO the Israeli right wing has given up on peace and a two state solution. They have seen the Oslo and Camp David accords fail which most observers considered very fruitful -- each which probably went further than the present day Israeli government likes. The have seen Hamas rise from a terrorist organization to an equal or better political power. They have seen numerous periodic rocket attacks rain down on their civilian population for decades. Abbas no longer speaks for all Palestinians. Israel has seen a complete unwillingness for them negotiate on Jersualem (just as Netanyahu is unwilling in fairness).

I believe they have settled for fencing out the Palestinians to prevent incursions on the Homeland and to establish numerous communities as eyes and ears and ultimately trip wires for any future hostile activities.

I think this is shortsighted and dangerous and ultimately self defeating. On the other hand they see no partner that they believe they can deal with.

I do not believe that either Kadima or the Labor party shares that view or goal. However, as long as Israel remains a democracy and the right wing parties keep a majority of the seats of parliament then the current attitude and strategy is likely to remain in effect.

Even if they lose power, it remains unclear that the Palestinians can get their act together, for reasons I posted in an earlier message, to be a successful negotiating partner.

If somehow the international community were able to force an unstable peace between two contiguous states it ultimately might lead to a very big war, or at least a bloody one. Imagine a 'soverign' Palestine getting weapons from China or North Korea. How long would Israel put up with that? This will not be forced without a lot of 'force' being thrown around.

I get an uneasy feeling about unintended consequences from this type of international action attempted to force outcomes. We reaped a lot of unintended consequences for invading Iraq. Sometimes those consequences are worth it, sometimes not. They need to be considered though before hand not discoverd afterward when they come home to roost.

[Guest epigonos]

The simple truth is that there is NO solution to the conflict between the Arabs and the Jewish state of Israel. There have been numerous decisions, one after another, starting with the Balfour Declaration of November 1917 and continuing to the present that have created the current situation. The World War II Holocaust compounded the problem by the guilt it instilled in the Western Powers for not doing more to prevent it.

At this point in time there is no way that the Arabs will coexist with the state of Israel regardless of its borders. History can and is used by both the Jews and the Arabs to justify their positions.

The one thing that everybody MUST understand is that the Israeli’s have the atomic bomb and if the day should come when the very existence of Israel is threatened be assured they will use it. The Jews of Israel will not be led to the slaughter a second time.

Who in my opinion is right – NOBODY. Who in my opinion is wrong – EVERYBODY. What is the solution – THERE ISN’T ONE. What in my opinion is going to happen in the end – DISASTER.

[RA1]

I have to agree, there isn't a solution, however much I would like for there to be one.

Best regards,

RA1