Muslim Europe

[Guest CharliePS]

And, say, while we are at it, why should a baby of foreign citizens become a US citizen simply by virtue of the fact that the mother was in the US at the time of birth?

Because the Constitution says so. It also contains a lot of other arbitrary dicta, some of which have been changed later by amendment.

[TotallyOz]

Oz this is my final post on this thread. The two are NOT comparable.

No problem. I was only curious. I agree with you that they are not comparable. I guess the thing I was thinking is that there is the perception of others against both Mexicans and Muslims.

Personally, I love Mexicans. I love those thick uncut cocks. I have never had a fondness for Arabs as I don't like their attitude or the way they act. I also don't really care for Russians but I am biased to the few of each group I know.

I was once in love with a guy from Yemen. But, he was Israeli and it was his grandparents that were from Yemen. He was born and raised in Jerusalem.

[Guest CharliePS]

Here is a link for a survey conducted in 2009

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/patriotic-respectful-and-homophobic-a-portrait-of-british-muslims-state-of-mind-1681062.html

I did read the article, but not until after I had signed off here last night. The picture it paints of British Muslim attitudes sounds remarkably like the generally believed portrait of American conservative attitudes toward this country.

The problem I have with so many writers on this issue is that their analyses are based on the assumptions that (1) everyone labeled "Muslim" thinks exactly alike, and (2) will never change. It's like the confident predictions made after the 2008 election that the American voters had definitively rejected Republican policies and would keep the Democrats in charge of Congress for a generation. Many respected European pundits said that it was inevitable that Communism would become the dominant ideology in western Europe after World War II. In the 1980s, everyone knew that Poland would always be the bulwark of Catholic orthodoxy in Europe (seen the stats on Polish church attendance, or attitudes toward divorce and abortion nowadays?). How many experts predicted the collapse of the Soviet Union from within? All these prognostications resulted from hasty generalizations based on preconceptions and inadequate information, as well as failure to account for changes due to unforeseen developments.

Epigonos said that British liberals were so traumatized by the experience of Fascism that they bent over backwards not to repeat it. I think an equally important legacy is the fear of once again failing to recognize the danger of Fascism in some other guise, which leads to panicky calls to head off anything that seems to resemble it.

[Lucky]

Didn't we while the summer hours away having a nice conversation on all of this? I like it when we talk!

[Guest CharliePS]

I did read the article, but not until after I had signed off here last night. The picture it paints of British Muslim attitudes sounds remarkably like the generally believed portrait of American conservative attitudes toward this country.

The problem I have with so many writers on this issue is that their analyses are based on the assumptions that (1) everyone labeled "Muslim" thinks exactly alike, and (2) will never change. It's like the confident predictions made after the 2008 election that the American voters had definitively rejected Republican policies and would keep the Democrats in charge of Congress for a generation. Many respected European pundits said that it was inevitable that Communism would become the dominant ideology in western Europe after World War II. In the 1980s, everyone knew that Poland would always be the bulwark of Catholic orthodoxy in Europe (seen the stats on Polish church attendance, or attitudes toward divorce and abortion nowadays?). How many experts predicted the collapse of the Soviet Union from within? All these prognostications resulted from hasty generalizations based on preconceptions and inadequate information, as well as failure to account for changes due to unforeseen developments.

Epigonos said that British liberals were so traumatized by the experience of Fascism that they bent over backwards not to repeat it. I think an equally important legacy is the fear of once again failing to recognize the danger of Fascism in some other guise, which leads to panicky calls to head off anything that seems to resemble it.

Whoops! I meant this to be a reply to Lucky's question whether anyone had read the Telegraph article that he linked to, not the Independent article, which I also read.

[Lucky]

Whoops! I meant this to be a reply to Lucky's question whether anyone had read the Telegraph article that he linked to, not the Independent article, which I also read.

That's okay. These heavy subjects can rattle you. We cannot, of course, assume that the rise of Muslim political power means that the Islamic extremists will also rise in power- at least proportionately. Without the female Muslim vote, their power becomes diluted as well. But it cannot get better for gays if Muslims start having influence in the city circles of what have been traditionally pro-gay societies.

Today is the first day of Ramadan, so now I know why all of those French restaurants close in August- the Muslims are fasting!

[MsGuy]

Did no one read this article I cited above?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/5994047/Muslim-Europe-the-demographic-time-bomb-transforming-our-continent.html

From the Telegraph article you cite:

"According to the US's Migration Policy Institute, residents of Muslim faith will account for more than 20 per cent of the EU population by 2050..."

Not exactly the end of the world, even if true (see Charlie's comments on projections).

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If it's the anti-gay animus in most Muslim cultures that's pissing you off, consider that it's the cultural Christians that have persecuted us in the US; I never met a Muslim until I was in college but I knew plenty of homophobes growing up.

[Lucky]

A Review of a book, "Rock the Casbah," by Middle East journalist Robin Wright in today's NY Times presents a more hopeful picture for the Muslim world:

Ms. Wright’s latest book, “Rock the Casbah” (which takes its title from a 1982 Clash song), builds on the arguments laid out in that earlier volume [Dreams and Shadows], not only looking at the causes and repercussions of the recent Arab Spring but also examining broader trends in the Islamic world. As she sees it, the revolts against autocratic rule in countries like Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and Yemen are “only the beginning of the beginning,” and a positive new dynamic is grabbing hold.

“The far wider Muslim world is increasingly rejecting extremism,” Ms. Wright argues. “The many forms of militancy — from the venomous Sunni creed of Al Qaeda to the punitive Shiite theocracy in Iran — have proven costly, unproductive and ultimately unappealing.” Rejecting the notion of a “clash of civilizations,” she argues that “even as the outside world tried to segregate Muslims as ‘others,’ particularly after 9/11, most Muslims were increasingly trying to integrate into, if not imitate, a globalizing world.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/02/books/robin-wrights-rock-the-casbah-on-islamic-world-book-review.html?ref=books

[Guest hitoallusa]

I believe the point Robin makes is valid as long as the US and european countries remain strong. Integration will continue if that's the case. The problem is that the US seems weakening despite its great potential. If further deterioration of the US continues and it loses its influence (Being an american in a foreign country isn't a bad thing) then a vacuum will be created where multiple countries compete for dominance. China will doubt the efficiency of the US government and it might give their ideologists an opportunity to gain temporary dominance in their own government. North Korea will also seize that opportunity and Islam extremists of course will persistently try to make a final blow to the weakening US as if that is their last chance to do so. J often hear some americans complain about americans being a warmonger and etc. I don't think that is a valid point. I am not say the US is perfect but it played a role of balancer over a century. I see a lot of americans going to a foreign country and write books about their wonderful experience there. I suggest them to go there disguised as one of them with no sign of you being an american. You will experience something very different.

[Guest CharliePS]

Because the Constitution says so. It also contains a lot of other arbitrary dicta, some of which have been changed later by amendment.

Epigonos, who is true to his word when he says he will not post anymore in a thread, has privately pointed out to me that the citizenship clause is not a part of the original Constitution of 1789, but a part of the post-Civil War 14th Amendment. However, the Amendments are considered part of the Constitution, and can themselves be amended, just as the 21st eliminated the 18th. Therefore, the citizenship clause could be changed, if enough people cared to take the monumental effort necessary to do so.

[Lucky]

I am all in favor of changing the amendment to limit citizenship to babies of US citizens and not foreigners. This is so easily manipulated.

And as for Muslims increasing in power in Europe, yes, I dread it. Why shouldn't a gay man be concerned that after years of winning his rights he now has yet another group of right wing fanatics and bigots to contend with?

Beyond that, Muslims in government cannot let their church values stand to the side anymore than a Mormon or Pentecostal. They are all a danger to gay rights, and I don't mean to leave out the Catholics or those nutty Scientologists.