Muslim Europe

[Lucky]

Hundreds of thousands of gays marched on Washington to block the right wing from stopping gay marriage and other rights. The gays are winning!

[Lucky]

On thing about advances in the Muslim population of Europe. You have to count them in half as they don't let their womenfolk vote!

[lookin]

Interesting thread. Over the past few days, I drafted two responses to it and decided to post neither. It just doesn't feel right to me to assume that all members of a group as large as European Muslims* think and act as one. Objectifying large numbers of people in this way has historically led to unpleasant consequences.

*or European non-Muslims, or Christians, or Catholics, or Jews, or Republicans, or Democrats, or gays . . .

Assimilation can take a generation or more and is often difficult for both assimilators and assimilatees. However, unless we don't really believe that the world is getting smaller and more interconnected as the days go by, it seems to me that we should work at learning how to do a better job of it. Refusing to lump other people together sounds like a good place to start.

Who knows, perhaps the charming, worldly, and sociable gents of MER are just the ones to show how outreach should be done, one friendly hand at a time.

PS: Sicilian Elephant is a new favorite mental image, rivaling one from many years ago in The New Yorker. During a circus parade, someone had given the lead elephant a loaf of French bread, and the writer said it looked like Sidney Greenstreet smoking a joint.

[Lucky]

He and I can join hands any time! But first, he has to extend it!

[Guest hitoallusa]

I will take that hand. He is so cute.

Who knows, perhaps the charming, worldly, and sociable gents of MER are just the ones to show how outreach should be done, one friendly hand at a time.

[Guest epigonos]

Lucky, this is a god awful topic. In this age of politically correct speech, thought and writing it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to address this topic in a rational manner without being accused of all sorts of things. If one asks provocative questions regarding Islamic immigration and settlement in Europe one is frequently accused of being a racists, a bigot or worse a Nazi. It is also an interesting fact that most, if not all, European countries do NOT grant automatic birth citizenship. A newborn is considered to have the citizenship of his/her parent or parents.

In an attempt to understand this topic “Reflections on the Revolution in Europe: Immigration, Islam, and the West” by Christopher Caldwell is a good place to start. It was published by Doubleday in 2009. Caldwell is a columnist for the Financial Times, a contributing writer for the New York Times Magazine, and a senior editor of the Weekly Standard. This book isn’t terribly encouraging when it comes to discussing the future of Western European Culture in Europe. He believes that American Culture has a better chance of survival because the U.S. has an established tradition of incorporating waves of culturally diverse immigrants. Europe does not have such a tradition and will, in his view, have difficulty withstanding the onslaught of Islamic Culture.

[Lucky]

Thanks for the response, Epigonos. I agree it is a hard topic to raise without being castigated. The norms we grew up with are slowly dwindling away. That may not be so bad, but to give a toehold in Europe to Islamic extremists without a fight seems folly. I'll take a look at the book you cite. There are, no doubt, no easy answers.

[Guest hitoallusa]

To my understanding, muslim culture doesn't have any chance of dominating Europe or else where in the world at this point because it lacks pragmatism and destroys innovation and creativity. I believe in the survival of the fittest and muslim culture or its religion is not the fittest for human prosperity, yet. It is true that there are muslim extremists who want to wage holy war against non-believers and europeans but it is highly unlikely they will control Europe. To corroborate, communists try to dominate the world for decades and they even engaged in highly sophisiticated psychological games but eventually they realized that their ideology was not the fittest. They had to look back and correct themselves. Likewise, smart and educated muslims will eventually assimilate to principles that work and bring true prosperity. I am not saying that they will abandon their religion or culture. If they will be able to see what doesn't work in their culture and what hinders their development, they will eventually bring changes to their own culture or even further to their faith. We should not forget, however, that Europeans will go through the same process and figure out ways to preserve their heritage and culture that have given them prosperity and point out what hinders their own development. I see muslim migration and issues that evokes as an opportunity for Europe not a threat at all in that sense.

I am not so worried about muslims. We often seem to forget that people move forward and not backward. Unless there is a catastrophic event that brings us back to the agricultural commune, I think Europeans will be fine.

As for Caldwell, his argument is pretty weak. He underestimate Europeans and its culture. Is he forgetting that most Americans are from Europe? If Americans can do it for their growth and survival then Europeans will be able to do the exact same thing. IMHO.

In an attempt to understand this topic “Reflections on the Revolution in Europe: Immigration, Islam, and the West” by Christopher Caldwell is a good place to start. It was published by Doubleday in 2009. Caldwell is a columnist for the Financial Times, a contributing writer for the New York Times Magazine, and a senior editor of the Weekly Standard. This book isn’t terribly encouraging when it comes to discussing the future of Western European Culture in Europe. He believes that American Culture has a better chance of survival because the U.S. has an established tradition of incorporating waves of culturally diverse immigrants. Europe does not have such a tradition and will, in his view, have difficulty withstanding the onslaught of Islamic Culture.

[Guest CharliePS]

Europeans have had an ingrained fear of being overwhelmed by Islam for more than a thousand years, ever since powerful Muslim armies invaded and took control of Iberia and the Balkans. As recently as the 17th century, the Ottomans threatened at the gates of Vienna. I think today's fears of "invasion" are overblown, because no Islamic country could succeed in conquering any European nation, nor would they even try. Most Muslim immigrants come to western countries because they want the economic and even social advantages that they recognize are part and parcel of western culture, and are not available to them in their own Muslim countries. Yes, some of them resent the achievements of non-Muslim culture and like to talk about imposing a Muslim veneer on it, but that would actually kill many of the attractions and advantages that they obtain from life in the west, and many of them recognize that fact. All European countries can, and do, put limits on the number of immigrants that they will accept, and the notion that a kind of treasonous fifth column of Muslims and their sympathizers will be able to overthrow European values and turn secular/Christian natives into a subject people is absurd. Except for the small number of those with terrorist ambitions, most of those who want a conservative Muslim government and culture stay in their own countries where they already have those things.

Most human beings are afraid the native culture in which they feel comfortable may be "contaminated" by people with different values, religion and customs, whether they are evangelical Christians in Iowa, rural whites in Alabama, British scientists, office workers in Osaka, or conservative Catholics in Munich. It's a natural fear, but it isn't necessarily reasonable.

[Guest epigonos]

If the same percentage of Muslims lived in the U.S. today as currently live in Great Britain there would be approximately 30,000,000 Muslims in this country. Part of the problem is that the European ruling elite is still fixated on the Nazi/Fascist experience of the 1930’s and 40’s. Thus they find themselves unable to tolerate criticism of almost any culture or belief. Labour members of the House of Commons have proposed that Britain’s Islamic population be allowed to live under Sharia Law. In a recent session of Parliament another Labour member proposed that any mention of the Nazi Holocaust be eliminated from ALL textbooks in the U.K. because it was offensive to the country’s Muslim population.

[Lucky]

Wishful thinking, Charlie. This time it is a demographic fact that the Muslims are taking over. What happens after that remains to be seen. I doubt they are coming to Europe to be Europeans.

[Guest CharliePS]

Wishful thinking, Charlie. This time it is a demographic fact that the Muslims are taking over. What happens after that remains to be seen. I doubt they are coming to Europe to be Europeans.

What is this "demographic fact" of which you speak? Can you cite reliable figures that Muslims are or are about to become a majority anywhere in Europe?

[Lucky]

Yes, it is a few posts above this. A demographic study done in 2009 shows Muslims will be a majority in many European counties by 2015. However, Muslim women will not be able to vote. And, even if Muslims do not become a majority (Pew study), there can be no doubt that they are fast becoming a political force.

What that means for gays, and Jews, is not good.

[Guest CharliePS]

If the same percentage of Muslims lived in the U.S. today as currently live in Great Britain there would be approximately 30,000,000 Muslims in this country. Part of the problem is that the European ruling elite is still fixated on the Nazi/Fascist experience of the 1930s and 40s. Thus they find themselves unable to tolerate criticism of almost any culture or belief. Labour members of the House of Commons have proposed that Britains Islamic population be allowed to live under Sharia Law. In a recent session of Parliament another Labour member proposed that any mention of the Nazi Holocaust be eliminated from ALL textbooks in the U.K. because it was offensive to the countrys Muslim population.

I have lived in Britain, and I am aware that there are crackpots in every democratically elected legislature. A member of the US House of Representatives proposed that persons with AIDS be removed to concentration camps in America. It didn't happen here, and shari'a law won't become official in Britain either, nor will the Holocaust be eliminated from textbooks. Citing a few off-the-wall proposals by British politicians is like a European assuming that, because some liberals in San Francisco want to legally ban circumcision, the idea must be widely accepted in California and will inevitably be instituted.

[Guest epigonos]

Charlie I also have lived in Britain but the Britain of even a few years ago isn't the Britain of today. I am concerned by what I currently see happening as more and more respectable British politicians go out of their way to accommodate their Muslim population by compromising traditional British culture. The major immigrations of Muslims from the Indian subcontinent took place in the late 1940’s and early 50’s and they have not assimilated. Many have government jobs in the Royal Postal Service etc. but they return to totally segregated neighborhoods and suburbs after work. Most of the local jihadists come from these families.

[TotallyOz]

and they have not assimilated. Many have government jobs in the Royal Postal Service etc. but they return to totally segregated neighborhoods and suburbs after work.

Would you agree that a majority of Mexican's in USA have not assimilated either? It this at their own decision or by forced circumstances?

[Guest CharliePS]

Yes, it is a few posts above this. A demographic study done in 2009 shows Muslims will be a majority in many European counties by 2015. However, Muslim women will not be able to vote. And, even if Muslims do not become a majority (Pew study), there can be no doubt that they are fast becoming a political force.

What that means for gays, and Jews, is not good.

I have not read the Caldwell book, which I presume is what you are referring to, but I have read a number of reviews, none of which indicates where he gets his figures, but they do say that he claims Muslims will be a majority of some countries by 2050, not 2015. That's projecting a long way into the future, and that kind of population projection is notoriously unreliable (in this country, we can't even get our projections right from one ten year census to the next). They are currently only 4% of the European population, slightly less than the percentage of Filipinos in the US. One reviewer points out that Caldwell claims that Muslims "reproduce like rabbits," yet the reproduction rate of Muslims in Europe is actually declining, not rising. Even some positive reviews of the book describe him as a "conservative American" writing a "polemic." Caldwell takes for granted that Muslims born in Europe will have exactly the same worldview as their parents and grandparents--when did that ever happen?! I'll bet you have the same religious beliefs as your Irish grandparents, not to mention the same attitude toward homosexuality.

I'm not ready to jump on that alarmist bandwagon.

[lookin]

However, Muslim women will not be able to vote.

.

Sez who???

[Guest hitoallusa]

Here is a link for a survey conducted in 2009

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/patriotic-respectful-and-homophobic-a-portrait-of-british-muslims-state-of-mind-1681062.html

[TotallyOz]

Here is a link for a survey conducted in 2009

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/patriotic-respectful-and-homophobic-a-portrait-of-british-muslims-state-of-mind-1681062.html

Interesting that not one single person in the survey found homosexuality acceptable. That worries me a great deal!

[Lucky]

Did no one read this article I cited above?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/5994047/Muslim-Europe-the-demographic-time-bomb-transforming-our-continent.html

[Lucky]

And, say, while we are at it, why should a baby of foreign citizens become a US citizen simply by virtue of the fact that the mother was in the US at the time of birth?

[lookin]

Interesting that not one single person in the survey found homosexuality acceptable.

They're probabably not doing it right.

Sounds like another opportunity for a little MER cultural outreach.

How about declaring August Outreacharound Month?

[Guest hitoallusa]

Mitt Romney?

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2007/07/romney-still-lo.html

And, say, while we are at it, why should a baby of foreign citizens become a US citizen simply by virtue of the fact that the mother was in the US at the time of birth?

[Guest epigonos]

Oz this is my final post on this thread. I don’t want to fall into the trap of insisting on having the last word.

You ask: “Would you agree that a majority of Mexican's in USA have not assimilated either? It this at their own decision or by forced circumstances?” No I would DEFINITELY NOT agree with that statement. Many Mexican Americans have assimilated and many more are doing so right now. The situations concerning Mexican and Muslim immigration are completely different. Mexican immigrants come from a culture based on Western European religion and cultural values. The U.S. assimilated waves of Irish and Italian Roman Catholics and it will assimilate Mexican immigrants as well. Muslim immigrants are NOT products of Western European religion and cultural values and of their own free will they refuse to adopt Western European cultural values. The hijab and the burka are lasting symbols of Muslim separateness both in the U.S. and Europe. In Florida the ACLU defended a Muslim woman’s right to have her driver’s license photograph taken wearing a burka. The State said no that driving was a privilege NOT a right and thus the face had to be shown in the photograph. The case went all the way to the Florida Supreme Court which denies the woman’s suit. This type of situation would NEVER arise with Mexican immigrants. The two are NOT comparable.