Muslim Europe

[Lucky]

Not that I favor actions like the one taken by the Norwegian mass murderer, but there is an issue there that is going to come to the forefront in the very near future. And that is the increasingly large influx of Muslims into traditional European countries. Many argue that Muslims will soon be the majority in countries like France, and that sharia law is not far behind. Is this alarmist thinking? No, it is based on fact and the statements of Muslim leaders.

Paris, for example, is surrounded by Muslim slums. Many Muslims take advantage of loose immigration policies to take advantage of loose welfare policies in the countries to which they immigrate. France, guilt-ridden by its history in Algeria, is one such country. Norway is another, although I don't see the history of abuse of Muslims. But Norway is a welfare-seekers paradise.

Having liked France (and much of Europe) just as it is, I don't want to see it become a Muslim ruled country. I believe that Muslims are a mostly peaceful people, but they do not actively oppose the leaders who want sharia law or want to terrorize their way to power. (Recent activity in the Middle East may prove me wrong.)

Tighter immigration laws would seem necessary, and tighter welfare policies are almost required for any number of reasons having nothing to do with Muslims. Muslim Europe may be the future, but I wouldn't like to see it just handed over. However, the French have a history of giving away their country without a fight...

[RA1]

Crusades, anyone? Anyone?

Best regards,

RA1

[Lucky]

I was hoping to get a discussion going. I guess that is hard to do.

Anyway:

Britain and the rest of the European Union are ignoring a demographic time bomb: a recent rush into the EU by migrants, including millions of Muslims, will change the continent beyond recognition over the next two decades, and almost no policy-makers are talking about it.

The numbers are startling. Only 3.2 per cent of Spain's population was foreign-born in 1998. In 2007 it was 13.4 per cent. Europe's Muslim population has more than doubled in the past 30 years and will have doubled again by 2015. In Brussels, the top seven baby boys' names recently were Mohamed, Adam, Rayan, Ayoub, Mehdi, Amine and Hamza.

Europe's low white birth rate, coupled with faster multiplying migrants, will change fundamentally what we take to mean by European culture and society. The altered population mix has far-reaching implications for education, housing, welfare, labour, the arts and everything in between. It could have a critical impact on foreign policy: a study was submitted to the US Air Force on how America's relationship with Europe might evolve. Yet EU officials admit that these issues are not receiving the attention they deserve.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/5994047/Muslim-Europe-the-demographic-time-bomb-transforming-our-continent.html

[MsGuy]

I was hoping to get a discussion going. I guess that is hard to do.

Sorry, I was going to post something but then I got to thinking "Why should I encourage Merlin2 to keep sneaking over here and posting under Lucky's name?"

[RA1]

How well do you speak Spanish? Shouldn't we worry a whole lot more about our own problems before we worry about learning Farsi?

Best regards,

RA1

[Guest Allessio77]

If you believe that all men are equal, what does it matter? Are Hispanics inferior to Caucasians? Are Muslims inferior to Frenchmen?

[RA1]

All men aren't equal. Some are fat, some are skinny, some are old, some have hair and some don't, etc.

I believe the original question was about cultural differences, maybe religious differences and definitely political differences; NOT the relative value of individuals. But that is just my interpretation and I did not pose the question.

Perhaps here is another way to ask the question. Do countries have the political right to decide who lives there and who is or becomes a citizen?

Best regards,

RA1

[TotallyOz]

For my friends who live in France, it is a great worry to them. I don't think they are worried much about illegal immigrants as they are extremist Muslims. I am not sure what to equate that fear with in the USA.

Growing up in the deep south, there was a fear that blacks and Jews were going to take over America. I never even met a Jew until I moved away from Alabama and still I have more Jewish friends than I do Christian friends. The fear was not something I felt. But, it was a real fear among many I knew from my childhood.

People don't understand someone different than they are. I'll admit I understand less about Muslims than I do any religion or people. I don't have any Muslin friends that I know of.

In Thailand, there is a big fear of Muslims in the south because of the violence. The people see the headlines and that fear is encouraged.

When I was at the gym yesterday, the Thai papers had the massacre from Norway on front page. The Thais were all talking about how the guy was trying to kill all the Muslims in the country. That is their perception.

I have rambled but I am not sure how to express the fear of many I know against people who are Muslim.

I heard one of the Republican candidates for President talking and he said there would be no Muslim members of his cabinet. Is that far from the fears of many others? Why do you think the Republican's paint Obama as Muslim? They want him to be hated by the American people. These fear tactics have worked for thousands of years. What country is immune?

[Lucky]

All men aren't equal. Some are fat, some are skinny, some are old, some have hair and some don't, etc.

I believe the original question was about cultural differences, maybe religious differences and definitely political differences; NOT the relative value of individuals. But that is just my interpretation and I did not pose the question.

Perhaps here is another way to ask the question. Do countries have the political right to decide who lives there and who is or becomes a citizen?

Best regards,

RA1

You believe correctly, at least in regard to the original question.

[Lucky]

Sorry, I was going to post something but then I got to thinking "Why should I encourage Merlin2 to keep sneaking over here and posting under Lucky's name?"

Well, that's quite an insult. I would oppose a TeaParty takeover of America just as much as I would oppose a Muslim take over of Europe. Unfortunately, as the Telegraph article shows, it's almost a foregone conclusion on Europe.

I like Muslims as individual people. I think the moderates do not do enough to oppose the extremists. If the TeaParty were to try to take over the US, moderates would be far more vocal. Sharia law is an abomination, as is Muslim treatment of women. By your post above, I take it that's okay with you.

[Guest hitoallusa]

I don't think MsGuy meant it that way or tried to insult you.

[seattlebottom]

When people are being let into a country they're not really taking it over.

[Guest zipperzone]

Perhaps here is another way to ask the question. Do countries have the political right to decide who lives there and who is or becomes a citizen?

ABSOLUTELY :excl: not a doubt in my mind........

[JKane]

Well, that's quite an insult. I would oppose a TeaParty takeover of America just as much as I would oppose a Muslim take over of Europe.

I think THAT is the comparison TotallyOz was looking for.

Footage from Bachman and Palin's churches embarrass the hell out of any thinking supporters they may have left but don't disqualify them from office, nor does Mittens' (or clone Huntsman's) Mormon extremism.

Yet christian extremism (AKA fundamentalism) is just as dangerous and uses much the same mechanisms of trying to build angry mobs of uneducated cannon fodder. Old Testament law is JUST as dangerous as Sharia and something much more relevant for Americans to be worrying about.

Going after Muslim extremists exclusively is simply racism, and Norway shows it leaves you just as open to terrorism.

I love this, from the comments on that story:

Christian Terrorists. We should ban all gathering spaces, like churches. Oh and those madrassas, errr, I mean Christian Schools where they teach the next generation of terrorists should be closed.

[TampaYankee]

I do not pretend expertise on European minority issues. I see bit and pieces from time to time on which I base an opinion which may not stand up to strict scrutiny. That being said, I will jump in the deep end of the pool.

Europe's minority problem IMO is: they bring in a lot of foreign labor and immigrants, with no real intention or desire to assimilate them into their society. They want the benefits of that labor but do not want to grant rights full participation in the country.

This attitude has spilled over into immigrant sectors too. France may have an Algerian guilt complex but the population as a whole doesn't in its gut. The Brits have their issues too with Pakistanis and to a lesser extent Indians. The Germans have issues with Turks. The immigrants react by staying in the ghettos that accepted them on arrival which was a comfortable place in a strange land, resulting in two separate communities that harbor suspicions and ill feelings about each other. This is strongly aggravated by cultural differences including religion.

If a country is going to bring in labor they better be prepared to integrate them into the society or rotate them out reasonably quickly. the problem with the latter is that immigrants don't want to leave the economic benefits of the country and they melt into the woodwork to the escape the bureaucracy leaving them alienated in isolated ghettos.

This also explains why we have a large latino population sector that does not integrate into American society fueled by illegal immigrants and temporary migrant laborers that need to hide from the establishment.

If a country is going to bring in labor they need to give that population a stake in the country unless you wish to see a separate country grow inside of it. A separate country harbors some individuals that feel alienated with little stake in the establishment. This fertilizes potential terrorists.

Countries need to control immigration better in numbers and purpose and accept the responsibility that comes with inviting people work with you -- allowing them to live with you.

[Guest CharliePS]

Let's put this in some historical perspective, because the situation is not exactly new and unique. For many centuries, various European rulers allowed or invited an ethnic group of different religion and customs, the Jews, to immigrate, in order to fill an economic niche. The homogeneous ethnic majority of the population were always distrustful of the group and wanted them to be segregated or ousted altogether. When the Jews became too demanding of either full citizenship or special status, i.e., their own Jewish legal system, or they were perceived to have become too powerful, they were either killed or forced to leave. In Spain, they were forced to convert to Catholicism if they wanted to stay, though their conversions were never trusted. Sometimes, after a number of years, they were invited back, and often the same process was repeated. Something similar happened in Eastern Europe with the millions of German immigrants who had settled there starting in the Middle ages, who were evicted in the same kind of "ethnic cleansing" after World War II.

And in America? In the early years of the USA, the population was quite homogeneous, until an ethnic group of strange customs and bizarre religion began immigrating in huge numbers: the Irish. There was great fear among the Americans that their culture would be diluted and destroyed, and the media of the day was filled with heated arguments about whether the Irish should be allowed to become citizens. Those who defended the Irish were denounced by native Americans (as opposed to Native Americans) as traitors to the values of American culture. Right-wing mobs attacked Irish neighborhoods and even burned down Catholic churches. Later in the century, the same sort of prejudice was exhibited against--you guessed it--Norwegian immigrants! Not to mention the Chinese, Italians, Slavs, and as usual, the Jews.

Though they'd hate the comparison, Muslims are the new Jews of Europe, and to some extent of America as well. The patterns never change; the question is whether the outcomes will be the same.

[Lucky]

Here in Southern California, I sometimes feel that I am living in Mexico. Signs are in both English and Spanish. We see people of Mexican heritage everywhere. The older people tend to speak Spanish and adhere to the old customs. The younger ones maintain a lot of their heritage, but do learn English and want to be able to get the jobs that whites get. After all, though, this area used to belong to Mexico.

We've invited multitudes of Mexicans to come in and pick our berries, treating them badly as they did so, and making them unwelcome in our lives. Here in Palm Springs there is almost an apartheid as the whites and Mexicans do not mingle unless it is to discuss labor issues.

I like Mexicans. I enjoy their company and their culture. I have visited many places in Mexico and speak a bit of the language.

Mexicans, however, are not trying to overthrow the US government and establish a form of law that dates back centuries, allows stonings, ostracisms, religious police squads, or makes women third class citizens. That form of life is something that we as people who respect human rights must stand up to. Even if it means that MsGuy will insult me!

[Guest CharliePS]

Here in Southern California, I sometimes feel that I am living in Mexico. Signs are in both English and Spanish. We see people of Mexican heritage everywhere. The older people tend to speak Spanish and adhere to the old customs. The younger ones maintain a lot of their heritage, but do learn English and want to be able to get the jobs that whites get. After all, though, this area used to belong to Mexico.

We've invited multitudes of Mexicans to come in and pick our berries, treating them badly as they did so, and making them unwelcome in our lives. Here in Palm Springs there is almost an apartheid as the whites and Mexicans do not mingle unless it is to discuss labor issues.

I like Mexicans. I enjoy their company and their culture. I have visited many places in Mexico and speak a bit of the language.

Mexicans, however, are not trying to overthrow the US government and establish a form of law that dates back centuries, allows stonings, ostracisms, religious police squads, or makes women third class citizens. That form of life is something that we as people who respect human rights must stand up to. Even if it means that MsGuy will insult me!

I think the whole hoopla about Muslims imposing shari'a law is a red herring. The number of Muslims in western countries who want to impose shari'a law in place of western legal systems is probably much smaller than the number of Christians who want to impose Biblical prohibitions against homosexuality, abortion, etc., in western civil law.

[Guest hitoallusa]

People move to other countries for an opportunity or better life. The US and other countries should be proud that foreigners want to come to them. There could be many reasons for migration but I believe it is mostly because they have no vision in their own country or they see more opportunities in other countries like the US. The core muslims with many interests in their own country will not move to other countries. Why will they do that when they live like kings and queens? As long as the US and other countries can provide opportunities that their own country can't then they will keep coming till there is nothing to gain from it. So I don't think any of the european countries have anything to worry about. Influx of people represents their strength not weakness. Once it reaches the limit and european countries don't have anything to offer, they will stop coming.

The problem with muslims, however, is that their religion is not only a great source of power to those who wield it but also a great force of hinderance to their own development. This ambivalence has caused much strain on their society and force their great assets to move to other countries. Unfortunately, some of these migrants fail to leave behind the very thing that forced or motivated them out of their own country. They fail to accept new ideas and culture and blame on the very place that gave them opportunities for their hardship. Only those who can break this spell and assimilate to the new environment will succeed. Eventually they contribute to their new society positively with their talent and hard work. On the other hand those muslims who hold onto the old concepts and illogical contradictory ideas remain weak and never fully assimilate. They themselves hinder their own progress and prevent themselves from becoming the majority and a true leader. I think this principle give us a firm reassurance that european countries don't have to worry about them. So I am optimistic about the future.

[MsGuy]

Even if it means that MsGuy will insult me!

LOL. Lucky, I knew I should have hit 'delete' instead of 'reply'; you can hold a grudge better than a Sicilian elephant! Seriously, there was no insult intended.

----

I happen to have gotten to know quite well more than a few Muslims in my wandering life: Arabs, Pakistanis, Somalis, American converts, Iranians, what have you. Their religious beliefs (which scattered all over the map) were no wackier than the spread among Christians of my acquaintance. Try winning the confidence of some of those Baptist theocrats if you want to hear some scary rhetoric. In private they're even crazier than on TV.

Actually it's the Catholics that are overrunning England right now; According to the Sunday Times, Papists are approaching plurality status (2X the Muslims), much to the distress of the Anglicans.

[Lucky]

I thought Sicilian elephants were extinct, so their memories are kind of shot by now.

Remember, MsGuy, you are supposed to comment on the post, not the poster. To compare me with that raging idiot of the right wing, a homophobe of distinction only when compared to mass murderers, is insulting. Not that I have any personal feelings about him, you see. Just an opinion.

But I forgive you! Let's forget it all. Maybe we can join together to promote better relations!

[MsGuy]

Let's forget it all. Maybe we can join together to promote better relations!

Only if you promise to use plenty of lube.

[Lucky]

Tens of thousands of Egyptian Islamists poured into Tahrir Square on Friday calling for a state bound by strict religious law and delivering a persuasive show of force in a turbulent country showing deep divisions and growing signs of polarization.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/30/world/middleeast/30egypt.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper

[Buddy2]

I was in France, Italy and the Czech Republic last June. I am traveling to Sweden and Germany in a few weeks. I have not agreed with a lot of comments in this thread, but my first-hand information is more tha a year old. So I have been silent.

I look forward to seeing what's happening in Germany and particularly Sweden before posting anything.

[MsGuy]

Tens of thousands of Egyptian Islamists poured into Tahrir Square on Friday calling for a state bound by strict religious law and delivering a persuasive show of force in a turbulent country showing deep divisions and growing signs of polarization.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/30/world/middleeast/30egypt.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper

Hundreds of thousands of Christian believers poured into Washington, D.C., calling for a state bound by strict religious law and delivering a persuasive show of force in a turbulent country showing deep divisions and growing signs of polarization.