South Caroline Lt Governor

[BiBottomBoy]

I think it's pretty fucking dangerous when any group starts making a list of it's "enemies."

[MsGuy]

Don't be a hypocritical dick.

Caeron, you aren't the first to point this out to me although some have been a bit more polite about it. Being raised Southern Presbyterian left me prone both to playing the hypocrite and being a dick. I do try but often enough I'm less than entirely successful.

That said, may I point out to you that you chose to avoid my question about the 16 year old kid?

Dominant groups don't single out members of a despised minority for crucifixion simply to punish offending individuals. Persecution serves the larger social purposes of reinforcing dominant group solidarity and conditioning subservience into the minority. Offering up members of the community for yet another auto de fey by the homophobic majority strikes me as counterproductive, however much you might dislike a given individual.

So I ask you again, what lesson does the 16 year old gay boy learn from seeing a powerful politician brought down by a homophobic mob? What is the lesson learned if the lynching is a result of outing by another gay? For that matter, what is being taught if the boy in question is straight?

[BiBottomBoy]

Word.

[Guest Conway]

Don't be a hypocritical dick.

My experience is that when people have to resort to name calling when other people ask them legitimate questions in a respectful manner, the name caller generally doesn't have an argument that he can logically defend.

[caeron]

Caeron, you aren't the first to point this out to me although some have been a bit more polite about it. Being raised Southern Presbyterian left me prone both to playing the hypocrite and being a dick. I do try but often enough I'm less than entirely successful.

That said, may I point out to you that you chose to avoid my question about the 16 year old kid?

Dominant groups don't single out members of a despised minority for crucifixion simply to punish offending individuals. Persecution serves the larger social purposes of reinforcing dominant group solidarity and conditioning subservience into the minority. Offering up members of the community for yet another auto de fey by the homophobic majority strikes me as counterproductive, however much you might dislike a given individual.

So I ask you again, what lesson does the 16 year old gay boy learn from seeing a powerful politician brought down by a homophobic mob? What is the lesson learned if the lynching is a result of outing by another gay? For that matter, what is being taught if the boy in question is straight?

Sorry, I didn't mean to say you were a hypocritical dick. I try to not engage in that level of discourse here, and if you took me to mean that was about you, I assure you it was not. I meant that was the lesson the 16 year old should learn.

That the world is full of homophobia isn't news to a closeted 16 year old. Most of us have been there. That people are rejected because they are gay isn't news. Outing someone doesn't change this. Every closeted kid knows this already.

I believe that being gay is like eye color or skin color. In a perfect world, calling someone gay would be much akin to calling someone black. It would only matter if you're a racist or a homophobe.

Speaking the truth about closeted conservative politicians who have made hay out of bashing the gay community doesn't change any of the social dynamics that exist in our society. Being silent doesn't change any of those dynamics.

I object to giving a free ride to enemies of the community that enjoy the fruits of our efforts in private while fighting us in public.

There is nothing about one's sexuality that is secret or shameful. When we play into that, we just reinforce the societal perception that it is shameful, and therefore secret.

I think we ought to be more out about it.

"Hey Faggot, stop trashing us, you're one of us."

That statement only stings if you have issues with homosexuality.

Personally, I think that 16 year old is going to say "wow, I am not the only one. and I am not going to be like that fuck stain who lied to everybody." at least I hope that's what they'd think.

[BiBottomBoy]

Again, I'm against this whole idea of "enemies."

[caeron]

I wish I could live in your world. In my world, the gay community has a lot of enemies.

[BiBottomBoy]

Perhaps we should hold tribunals then and star chambers to deal with them?

[TotallyOz]

I wish I could live in your world. In my world, the gay community has a lot of enemies.

There is no doubt that the gay community has tons of enemies. Just look at the California proposition.

And, as for our friends: What has Obama done for us since being in office? If that is the way your friends treat you...

[BiBottomBoy]

I never expected Obama to be that gay friendly. He was against gay marriages during the election and he's part of a church that's not particularly gay friendly.

Hillary was the one to vote for if you were interested in gay rights.

[TotallyOz]

I never expected Obama to be that gay friendly. He was against gay marriages during the election and he's part of a church that's not particularly gay friendly.

Hillary was the one to vote for if you were interested in gay rights.

Hilly is the one I gave money to. She is the one I supported. She is the one I wanted. But, we don't always get what we want. So, I took Obama with high hopes.

[BiBottomBoy]

he's still better than having the gop running things.

[MsGuy]

No problem, Caeron, I've said plenty of stuff myself that was received ass backwards from what I intended. Actually, read as you intended, the remark has a certain rough humor.

Still that's a lot insight you're asking from a teenager. It never hurts to remind ourselves that being raised by breeders has its drawbacks. Most of us acquired the full set of homophobic beliefs before we ever gave a thought as to why we weren't reacting to girls in quite the same way as our friends. I can still remember myself as a 16 year old queer in small town Mississippi with a head loaded with all that shit. Swear I was terrified that my career choices were hair dresser, interior designer or florist (ballet was out of reach). Watching some prominent guy ridden out of town on a rail for being gay would have put me into the closet for a least another decade.

Truth be told I can't work up much of either hate or concern for folks like the Lt. Gov. & he's quite capable of fending for himself. It's the collateral damage outing does that bothers me. It gives guys trying to find their way out of the closet one more lesson in fear.

[BiBottomBoy]

Exactly MsGirl.

Also, I don't think we do the gay community any help by making ourselves seem even scarier than we are already perceived.

[JKane]

I can still remember myself as a 16 year old queer in small town Mississippi with a head loaded with all that shit. Swear I was terrified that my career choices were hair dresser, interior designer or florist (ballet was out of reach). Watching some prominent guy ridden out of town on a rail for being gay would have put me into the closet for a least another decade.

The argument for outing is that knowing there were gay 'prominent' guys in your town--not just the occasional stereotypical hairdresser whom everybody made fun of--would've made you feel a lot less isolated.

Again, I'm not for outing (except for the Ted Haggard-type hypocrites) but I am finally seeing why people want as many as possible out of the closet.

[BiBottomBoy]

I'm not convinced it's safer for gay teens in rural America now than it used to be.

With the growth of the Christian Right in the South and Midwest, I suspect it might be a little worse.

[caeron]

I think time, mass media, and the internet has changed the world on this score.

Ellen plays on TV stations all over the country.

From any browser you can find a million folks like you.

American Idol, the pop phenomenon has had Adam and Clay.

Kids today see tons of gay folks of all stripes all around them, virtually if not literally.

[BiBottomBoy]

Ellen won't help you when a homophobic twit is slamming your head into a locker.

[caeron]

No, but saying that 16 year olds around the country are going to slit their wrists if somebody outs the lt. governor of south carolina isn't helping either.

There are a lot of gay presences in the world today. Outing one closeted politician isn't going to change their world.

The debate has been about the effect of the outing. If you want to change into gay bashing in high schools, we can. But it isn't on point.

[TotallyOz]

I'm not convinced it's safer for gay teens in rural America now than it used to be.

With the growth of the Christian Right in the South and Midwest, I suspect it might be a little worse.

Growing up in Alabama, I can tell you, it is not worse. It is Drastically better. It still sucks. But, not like when I was a kid. I remember a house being burned down with 2 gay guys in it. I have many other bad memories from that time and that is what kept me in the closet for 27 years.

Now, things are different. I can be openly gay there and there is no issue for me. I also see other openly gay guys in my town. I also know of many in the closet and married with children as that is what they had to do to survive. It is not what young people have to do now.

Things have gotten better. It is still not good to grow up gay in most places in the south, but it is getting better all the time.

[MsGuy]

OZ:

"It's not what we want it to be;

It's not what it ought to be;

It's not what it's going to be;

But thank God Almighty it's not what it was."

MLK speaking on the status of African-Americans in the South circa 1966.

(quote reconstructed from memory)

Seems to pretty well summarize our current situation, IMO.

[BiBottomBoy]

Word.